Russia, Western Powers Clash At UN Over Elections In Eastern Ukraine

[Abbazorkzog]

It isn't just Russians though. There are rebel Ukrainians who think their government doesn't represent them, and want help to overthrow it. Naturally, Russia wants to annex parts of E. Ukraine and Crimea in return. This whole situation is unacceptable.

 

[Abbazorkzog]

I don't even bother meeting his lies with facts anymore. Just pointing out the dishonesties is already more attention than his distortions really deserve.

He's also wrong about Russians and Lithuanians not being sibling peoples.

Y-chromosome SNP haplogroup analysis showed Lithuanians to be closest to Balts, Russians, Belarusians and Finnish people. Autosomal SNP analysis situates Lithuanians most proximal to Latvians, followed by the East Slavs

Lithuanians - Genetics

Which is hilarious because I was talking about Ukraine, and thought he was Ukrainian. :lol:

 

[Westphalian]

Minsk requires Ukraine to commence dialogue with the separatists, pass an amnesty law, and pass a law allowing local elections to be conducted there under Ukrainian law.

All of that can be done in the absence of Clause 10. Nothing in Minsk says Clause 10 must be fulfilled before Ukraine needs to do anything.

None of you want to talk about this reality. You obsess about one Clause to the exclusion of others.

That is where you are being disingenuous and collectively lying..

 

[Chagos]

Mirror, mirror on the wall...........................

 

[Westphalian]

He's also wrong about Russians and Lithuanians not being sibling peoples.


Lithuanians - Genetics

Which is hilarious because I was talking about Ukraine, and thought he was Ukrainian. :lol:

Here's what your link actually says:

A 2004 analysis of mtDNA in a Lithuanian population revealed that Lithuanians are close to both Indo-European and Uralic-speaking populations of Northern Europe. Y-chromosome SNP haplogroup analysis showed Lithuanians to be closest to Balts, Russians, Belarusians and Finnish people. Autosomal SNP analysis situates Lithuanians most proximal to Latvians, followed by the East Slavs, furthermore, all Slavic peoples and Germans are situated more proximal to Lithuanians than Finns and northern Russians.[

 

[Abbazorkzog]

Here's what your link actually says:

You wanna play this game?

A 2004 analysis of mtDNA in a Lithuanian population revealed that Lithuanians are close to both Indo-European and Uralic-speaking populations of Northern Europe. Y-chromosome SNP haplogroup analysis showed Lithuanians to be closest to Balts, Russians, Belarusians and Finnish people. Autosomal SNP analysis situates Lithuanians most proximal to Latvians, followed by the East Slavs, furthermore, all Slavic peoples and Germans are situated more proximal to Lithuanians than Finns and northern Russians.[/QUOTE]

:lol:

 

[beerftw]

Lithuanians are not siblings of Russians, and there is no rivalry because, to be truthful, the entire global population of Lithuanians could fit into one small city anywhere in the world.


The issue is Litwin's quasi racist Mongol nonsense and his attempt to spread hate.

Lithuania has some of the same descendants, and their language is slavic as well, russia ukrainian bellorussian and rusyan are all eastern slavic, while latvia and lithuania are baltic slavic, many nations hold the same heritage at some point and later branch off, the same is true with western europe, germanic tribes took over europe after rome fell, between latin and various germanic tribes languages we have modern european languages and heritage.

 

[beerftw]

It is impossible for Ukraine to fulfill her Minsk obligations in Ukrainian territories where Ukraine has no sovereign control. no border control, and a military occupation exists.

This is why Point 10 is a critical part of the Minsk II Accords:

10. Pullout of all foreign armed formations, military equipment, and also mercenaries from the territory of Ukraine under OSCE supervision. Disarmament of all illegal groups.

Above. Ukraine is not allowed into her territories (light green), occupied and controlled by the Russian military.

The dotted red lines are Russian military supply routes as denoted by the OSCE (Minsk monitor).

----------

The Westphalian dodge (top) is simply Russian troll whataboutism to change the topic.

The UN Undersecretary-General for Political Affairs Rosemary DiCarlo has already specified that any elections in the occupied territories not held in accordance with Minsk II are illegal.

These are illegal said Mrs. DiCarlo.

The russian military does not control that area, granted they do have troops stationed there so it would qualify as an occupation. What they are doing there is proxy wwarfare, the group controlling the area is locals, with russian troops proving arms and support to the proxy military and the proxy military having a decent size of russian reserve defects making up the ranks, which russian probably turned a blind eye to knowing it was happening.

Russia simply does not control that area, through proxy warfare russia uses another group to control something and helps them along, meaning it is not an invasion by any legal means by russia, atleast in that region, crimea would fall under different rules. With proxy warfare it is possible to destabilize a country or even overthrow it's govt without using an actual military to invade.

 

[Rogue Valley]

The russian military does not control that area.

Russia fully controls the occupied territories, both administratively (Surkov) and militarily (Army Group 1 / Army Group II).

Take your Muscovite disinformation elsewhere.

 

[Rogue Valley]

 

[Rogue Valley]

Today -- A "polling" station in the Donetsk area. Yes, they pass out free vegetables to "voters".

 

[Westphalian]

Typically, you list all those as Russia's responsibilities, but they all apply equally in fact more so to Kiev. The Minsk agreement is between the two prime parties of Ukraine and the separatists. Russia is a signatory but not a protagonist.


This is where you continue to be totally dis-ingenuous, mis-leading and one sided.

 

[Chagos]

The russian military does not control that area, granted they do have troops stationed there so it would qualify as an occupation.

So, 6 of these and half a dozen of the other.

Or, alternately

through proxy warfare russia uses another group to control something and helps them along,

half a dozen of these or 6 of those.

I'd think that you're far above such "Westphalian" interpretations.

 

[Chagos]

Typically, you list all those as Russia's responsibilities, but they all apply equally to Kiev.


This is where you continue to be totally dis-ingenuous, mis-leading and one sided.

It's by now totally unnecessary to outline what you typically do.

 

[Westphalian]

Today -- A "polling" station in the Donetsk area. Yes, they pass out free vegetables to "voters".

Whereas Kiev sends artillery shells :roll:

 

[beerftw]

So, 6 of these and half a dozen of the other.

Or, alternately half a dozen of these or 6 of those.

I'd think that you're far above such "Westphalian" interpretations.

Let me do a beerftw ism then, proxy warfare is paying someone else to fight for you, granting plausible deniability, without actually committing an invasion. I differ from west in that I do know russia pulls the strings, but know the dpr and the other group control that region, they get direct backing from russia but are not directly controlled by russia, as how proxy warfare works.

 

[beerftw]

Russia fully controls the occupied territories, both administratively (Surkov) and militarily (Army Group 1 / Army Group II).

Take your Muscovite disinformation elsewhere.

Can you show me where russia fully controls that region? Last I checked they were controlled by the dpr and lpr, not by russia, but rather russia was backing them as a proxy force.


The mere fact you are calling it muscovite disinformation merely states you have no desire to learn facts or debate, but have decided what you wish is reality and are now trying to shut out any opposition through ad hominem rather than fact.

 

[Chagos]

Let me do a beerftw ism then, proxy warfare is paying someone else to fight for you, granting plausible deniability, without actually committing an invasion. I differ from west in that I do know russia pulls the strings, but know the dpr and the other group control that region, they get direct backing from russia but are not directly controlled by russia, as how proxy warfare works.

I wasn't really picking a bone with you, my comments were more to dissuade, in advance so to speak, West from using your interpretation as support of his own dishonest presentations.

That probably being a waste of time, I'd agree, but WTH.

 

[Chagos]

Can you show me where russia fully controls that region? Last I checked they were controlled by the dpr and lpr, not by russia, but rather russia was backing them as a proxy force.


The mere fact you are calling it muscovite disinformation merely states you have no desire to learn facts or debate, but have decided what you wish is reality and are now trying to shut out any opposition through ad hominem rather than fact.

I'd agree on the doubtfulness of you spreading muscovite propaganda, yet denying Russian control on the principle of Russia merely being supportive is taking semantics from the sublime to the cor-blimey.

On that premise one might as well say that Soviet Russia never controlled its Eastern European satraps.

 

[Westphalian]

Surprise .........

I agree with RV and Chagos!! Russia effectively controls the DPR and LPR through front men. We don't arm, train, bankroll and fight with precious resources of men and material without control. Both republics are ultimately controlled by Moscow.

Where I agree with Beerftw is that this is not a classic invasion. It is a proxy exercise where Russia backs one party in a civil war.

 

[Rogue Valley]

Can you show me where russia fully controls that region? Last I checked they were controlled by the dpr and lpr, not by russia, but rather russia was backing them as a proxy force.


The mere fact you are calling it muscovite disinformation merely states you have no desire to learn facts or debate, but have decided what you wish is reality and are now trying to shut out any opposition through ad hominem rather than fact.

Quit being so willingly stupid and disingenuous. Geezus.

 

[Rogue Valley]

Has the same designer created the posters for all Donbas "candidates"? Yes! Moscow.

 

[Rogue Valley]

I'd agree on the doubtfulness of you spreading muscovite propaganda, yet denying Russian control on the principle of Russia merely being supportive is taking semantics from the sublime to the cor-blimey.

It's nothing less than being a willing mouthpiece.

 

[beerftw]

Quit being so willingly stupid and disingenuous. Geezus.

So more ad hominems, yawn I thought you could atleast debate, resorting to such ad hominems is the act of someone who is on the losing side and trying to silence opposition rather than defeat it with logic.

 

[beerftw]

I'd agree on the doubtfulness of you spreading muscovite propaganda, yet denying Russian control on the principle of Russia merely being supportive is taking semantics from the sublime to the cor-blimey.

On that premise one might as well say that Soviet Russia never controlled its Eastern European satraps.

That is how proxy warfare rolls though, direct russian control would equal an invasion, so control is simply indirect. It is why proxy warfare is so deadly, it skirts international law and uses an intermediate not tied to any recognized govt, making retaliation under international law difficult.

On eastern europe well there was the soviet union, soviet pupper states, but then the soviet union did have the might to march their army on a puppet state when they misbehaved, where they are now in ukraine they could try to flex their muscle in crimea by claiming annexation, but with donbass if the leaders there opposed russia and went independant of them, russia could not simply march their army in to take them without triggering some kind of war of the non proxy variation.