- Joined
- May 14, 2009
- Messages
- 24,680
- Reaction score
- 8,662
- Location
- Israel
- Gender
- Male
- Political Leaning
- Centrist
Just checked. It does include Gaza. Who'd a thunk?
Can you please make a reference to where you've checked that?
Just checked. It does include Gaza. Who'd a thunk?
Can you please make a reference to where you've checked that?
You have been proven wrong by Kandahars evidence already. The Iraqi democracy is a sham.
There was a list of newspapers. Sorry, what does that prove?
It need not be recent and Egyptians could not possibly relate to Iraq. The Iraqi transformation process was not self instructed. It was imported by an occupying power and it resembled more like an instant microwave democracy rather than a "transition" which assumes there where some sort of long stretching process involving the people - something that was lacking in Iraq.
In Egypt, the situation is different. The people are here to impose the democracy and there united across political divides. It was not forced onto them and they have agreed that El Baradei should lead the revolt. The two "transitions" to democracy cannot possibly be contrasted.
The fact that it is non-Arab is an irrelevant and pathetic excuse.
The Kemalist transition to Democracy is very very relevant to theocratic and autocratic regimes in the ME because its precisely the Kemalist reforms that dismantled the religious institutions and modernized them, devolved powers to executive branches and removed a head of state who had absolute sovereign (the boldened being most relevant to Egypt).
You cannot deny that Turkey is very popular in the Arab world and its popularity has resulted in many aspiring to its Democracy and state of economy among Arab states.
No positive impacts, no.
And the protests in Tunisia and Egypt have nothing to do with Iraq. The only role model Iraq has played for these countries is to model a democratic system that resembles nothing like Iraq.
Not sure, but I would guess so. I haven't heard them mentioned specifically but clearly the anti-Mub movement they are making much of their very broadly-based support.
Al Jazeera being as biased as Foxnews...I'll check out El Arabiya.
how about if we not presume to tell people how to run their countries? live and let live anyone?
Really. I was under the impression that even in the U.S., the religious right exercises the tyranny of the majority on a pretty much continual basis. So, are we not yet capable of being a democracy, either?
Omg!! Catz that is what I have always felt like. Buts its something most do not want to see. But you Catz have said soomething I have always wanted to say. But you articulated it in such a way. Wow! That is all, Catz keep warm.
The religious right elected Barrack Obama?
It must be the religious left you were thinking of.
Well, the longer Mubarak hangs around in Egypt, the more power the Muslim Brotherhood is gaining. The time for the White House to drop its balls was last week so that we could maintain a sense of future for Egypt (and the rest of the region). Now the situation has become more volatile and mirky.
Was Barrack Obama not expected to pander to the religious right by showing that he was a church-attending Christian during the campaign? Oh wait. Yeah, he was.
You can call that "christian privilege." In other words, the ongoing pandering and accomodation that the religious right expects to see from anyone who wants to get elected in this country.
The "religious" left doesn't get pandered too? :shock:
What is the official conservative position on this crisis? Half say we should stand by Mubarak because the alternative will be worse and the other half say we should support the protesters and their quest for democracy. You guys better see what FOX wants you to think so you can all get on the same page..
I responded to that.
It proves the free press and the variety of voices being published in Iraq.
Well, ElBaradei won't have much impact. The protesters will fail - they run out of food in a week and face organized opposition with the pro-M folks. Egypt may hold elections in 5 months but what about rewriting the constitution and reforming to a real democracy? Reforming existing institutions. These are the things that need doing for which Iraq is a model.
Ok, yeah, I agree, but Iraq being Arab is significant to other Arab people. I agree that Iraq is not the only model out there for Egyptians. Iraq being recent is very significant. It started the process of reform within the Arab ME.
NONE AT ALL?? Jeez, when your ideological, you're ideological to the end, aren't you?
So a coalition of Shia, including conservative elements like Sadr, and the Kurds, who want Kirkuk, oil, and to be left alone as an quasi-independent region, as well as a strong negotiating position with the secular Sunni party led by Allawi is no role model? Their diplomatic position between Turkey and Iran and Saudi Arabia means nothing?
The "religious" left doesn't get pandered too? :shock:
You don't know us do you? If you did you would see other points of view besides those you have enumerated. Some conservatives are neo-isolationists who believe in hands off; let the chips fall where they may. And other conservatives see the Egyptian crisis as fuel for the fire on the American homefront to be used against the Leftist Figurehead who rules America.
This is a moment in which political decency and, eventually, freedom and democracy at least have a shot. That wasn’t true a month ago.
U.S. support of dictators is always shameful, even when it is occasionally necessary. But it is unforgivable when necessity gives way to mere complacency. We passed that point with Hosni Mubarak years ago. As Condoleezza Rice said, we traded freedom for stability in the Middle East and got neither. Now, the stability is collapsing, which at least makes freedom possible.
Unlike many pundits who’ve miraculously become Egyptologists overnight, I don’t pretend to know what will happen next. But I do know that you can’t get where we need to go without going through moments like this.
Which one are you?
kaya'08 said:Dont get me wrong, Iraqis are no longer living in fear of a dictator anymore. But considering the horrendous security issues there, its just turning into a game of "one thing to fear over another". It hasn't really benefited the region beside Iran and to an extent Turkey.
What is the official conservative position on this crisis? Half say we should stand by Mubarak because the alternative will be worse and the other half say we should support the protesters and their quest for democracy. You guys better see what FOX wants you to think so you can all get on the same page..
The stick-by-Mubarak crowd are a lot like the George HW Bush crowd that said removing Saddam (during Desert Storm) would make things worse, only to find out we had to remove him later anyway. .
You danced around it.
Here is a huge list of newspapers in Iran:
List of newspapers in Iran - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
You cannot measure freedom of speech by the amount of media outlets.
But what makes you think Iraq? Your only argument is....."because there Arab". Your speculating - and trying to score points for the US where it deserves none.
No it didn't. For starters, it would probably have started a lot sooner if that was the case. It could have happened 5 years from now and you would have said the same. If Iraq was an exceptional Arab democracy worth aspiring to, i would have been inclined to agree with you.
Dont get me wrong, Iraqis are no longer living in fear of a dictator anymore. But considering the horrendous security issues there, its just turning into a game of "one thing to fear over another". It hasn't really benefited the region beside Iran and to an extent Turkey.
Its just your average unity government, we see it all the time in Lebanon etc. It will probably eventually collapse under its weight just like your average unity government too.