Respect for the rule of law fading?

[Skeptic Bob]

I was raised to respect the rule of law. The older I get the more laughable I find the premise. I obey the law more often than not but it sure isn't out of respect. It is is because a particular law happens to align with my own ethics or it is because I don't want to deal with the hassle that would arise from breaking the particular law (jail, fines).

But the days of me respecting the law are gone and I am wondering if others here have experienced a similar change. I'll explain what I mean.

Our laws are passed by elected officials. It seems to me that elected office attracts the worst of us more often than it attracts the best of us. Seriously, the people who tend to rise to the top of politics tend to just be horrible, unethical people. Nothing in their behavior leads me to believe they are acting in the best interest of the People. And even the methods in which we elect these people are flawed. Our two party system doesn't even result in putting the most popular candidates before the electorate come the General election. And the system for electing members of Congress is no better.

We use a flawed system to put these corrupt and unethical people into office and we are to expect that the resulting laws they pass are in our best interests?

Am I the only one experiencing this level of disillusion?

 

[holbritter]

I was raised to respect the rule of law. The older I get the more laughable I find the premise. I obey the law more often than not but it sure isn't out of respect. It is is because a particular law happens to align with my own ethics or it is because I don't want to deal with the hassle that would arise from breaking the particular law (jail, fines).

But the days of me respecting the law are gone and I am wondering if others here have experienced a similar change. I'll explain what I mean.

Our laws are passed by elected officials. It seems to me that elected office attracts the worst of us more often than it attracts the best of us. Seriously, the people who tend to rise to the top of politics tend to just be horrible, unethical people. Nothing in their behavior leads me to believe they are acting in the best interest of the People. And even the methods in which we elect these people are flawed. Our two party system doesn't even result in putting the most popular candidates before the electorate come the General election. And the system for electing members of Congress is no better.

We use a flawed system to put these corrupt and unethical people into office and we are to expect that the resulting laws they pass are in our best interests?

Am I the only one experiencing this level of disillusion?

I grew up thinking that laws were passed for and to protect the people. I still think most are written for that purpose, at the ground level, but by the time they make it around for passing, there is too much stink attached from everyone's wheeling and dealing to get it passed.

 

[Port & Starboard]

Laws are for little people.

Leona Helmsley

 

[Fenton Lum]

I was raised to respect the rule of law. The older I get the more laughable I find the premise. I obey the law more often than not but it sure isn't out of respect. It is is because a particular law happens to align with my own ethics or it is because I don't want to deal with the hassle that would arise from breaking the particular law (jail, fines).

But the days of me respecting the law are gone and I am wondering if others here have experienced a similar change. I'll explain what I mean.

Our laws are passed by elected officials. It seems to me that elected office attracts the worst of us more often than it attracts the best of us. Seriously, the people who tend to rise to the top of politics tend to just be horrible, unethical people. Nothing in their behavior leads me to believe they are acting in the best interest of the People. And even the methods in which we elect these people are flawed. Our two party system doesn't even result in putting the most popular candidates before the electorate come the General election. And the system for electing members of Congress is no better.

We use a flawed system to put these corrupt and unethical people into office and we are to expect that the resulting laws they pass are in our best interests?

Am I the only one experiencing this level of disillusion?

When the police can murder unarmed citizens in the streets with impunity? Yeah sorry, I'm out. **** your society.

 

[Unitedwestand13]

I was raised to respect the rule of law. The older I get the more laughable I find the premise. I obey the law more often than not but it sure isn't out of respect. It is is because a particular law happens to align with my own ethics or it is because I don't want to deal with the hassle that would arise from breaking the particular law (jail, fines).

But the days of me respecting the law are gone and I am wondering if others here have experienced a similar change. I'll explain what I mean.

Our laws are passed by elected officials. It seems to me that elected office attracts the worst of us more often than it attracts the best of us. Seriously, the people who tend to rise to the top of politics tend to just be horrible, unethical people. Nothing in their behavior leads me to believe they are acting in the best interest of the People. And even the methods in which we elect these people are flawed. Our two party system doesn't even result in putting the most popular candidates before the electorate come the General election. And the system for electing members of Congress is no better.

We use a flawed system to put these corrupt and unethical people into office and we are to expect that the resulting laws they pass are in our best interests?

Am I the only one experiencing this level of disillusion?

I believe that Lewis Brandeis spoke about this phenomenon

Our government... teaches the whole people by its example. If the government becomes the lawbreaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy.
Read more at: https://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/louis_d_brandeis_105437

 

[Lovebug]

Seems all wonderful. **** the law, **** the LEOs, right? Too bad people don't think past their own nose, because who do you call when someone infringes on your rights or the right of your neighbors?
If every US citizen had enough self control to self discipline, we wouldn't need the law.
We have a lot of screw ups. That's still better than anarchy and a bunch of egoes doing what they want whenever they want to.
Don't let a few bad apples tell you otherwise.

 

[Skeptic Bob]

Seems all wonderful. **** the law, **** the LEOs, right? Too bad people don't think past their own nose, because who do you call when someone infringes on your rights or the right of your neighbors?
If every US citizen had enough self control to self discipline, we wouldn't need the law.
We have a lot of screw ups. That's still better than anarchy and a bunch of egoes doing what they want whenever they want to.
Don't let a few bad apples tell you otherwise.

Yes, but you can believe we as a society need laws and also believe that most the laws we are being given are not the laws we need. Just because a system is preferable to anarchy does not mean it is a good system. The system in North Korea may be better than anarchy, but that does not mean that their system is good. Our system is certainly better than the system in North Korea, but that does not mean that our system is good. I'm also not bringing the cops into this because they don't make the laws.

 

[PLizzy]

I was raised to respect the rule of law. The older I get the more laughable I find the premise. I obey the law more often than not but it sure isn't out of respect. It is is because a particular law happens to align with my own ethics or it is because I don't want to deal with the hassle that would arise from breaking the particular law (jail, fines).

But the days of me respecting the law are gone and I am wondering if others here have experienced a similar change. I'll explain what I mean.

Our laws are passed by elected officials. It seems to me that elected office attracts the worst of us more often than it attracts the best of us. Seriously, the people who tend to rise to the top of politics tend to just be horrible, unethical people. Nothing in their behavior leads me to believe they are acting in the best interest of the People. And even the methods in which we elect these people are flawed. Our two party system doesn't even result in putting the most popular candidates before the electorate come the General election. And the system for electing members of Congress is no better.

We use a flawed system to put these corrupt and unethical people into office and we are to expect that the resulting laws they pass are in our best interests?

Am I the only one experiencing this level of disillusion?

Not at all.

To quote from the show Oz: "Any laws I've managed to break don't deserve to be laws".

That how I feel. I'm not perfect by any means, but I feel I'm a pretty live and let live kind of guy. I don't put others at risk, nor did I violate the rights of any of my fellow citizens. Anything I do, I do with other consenting adults. So when the government (society) still manages to mandate that some victimless actions warrant people being jailed, it's hard to believe the rule of law is pure, and always deserving of respect.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's better than anarchy (sometimes) but believing in blind obedience to the law results in a society that becomes addicted to authoritarianism. That's why we still have dumbass laws against gambling, drugs, sex work, etc. We are addicted to the government guiding our morality, and fanatical extremists take full advantage of that reality, to use the law as a weapon to force their morals on the rest of society.

 

[Glen Contrarian]

I was raised to respect the rule of law. The older I get the more laughable I find the premise. I obey the law more often than not but it sure isn't out of respect. It is is because a particular law happens to align with my own ethics or it is because I don't want to deal with the hassle that would arise from breaking the particular law (jail, fines).

But the days of me respecting the law are gone and I am wondering if others here have experienced a similar change. I'll explain what I mean.

Our laws are passed by elected officials. It seems to me that elected office attracts the worst of us more often than it attracts the best of us. Seriously, the people who tend to rise to the top of politics tend to just be horrible, unethical people. Nothing in their behavior leads me to believe they are acting in the best interest of the People. And even the methods in which we elect these people are flawed. Our two party system doesn't even result in putting the most popular candidates before the electorate come the General election. And the system for electing members of Congress is no better.

We use a flawed system to put these corrupt and unethical people into office and we are to expect that the resulting laws they pass are in our best interests?

Am I the only one experiencing this level of disillusion?

You're far from the only one experiencing this level of illusion.

The homicide rates are far below what they were back in the mid 1980's - and this isn't just here, but over much of the world. What's more, relative to population, the world has been more peaceful since the mid-1990's than during any other such stretch in recorded human history. Terrorism was a lot worse back in the 1970's than it is now. Travel is much safer, too - back then, aircraft crashes were a lot more common, but now air travel is literally safer than walking. The death rate of police on the job is also much lower than it is now, but if you listen to certain politicians and certain news agencies, there's a war on against the police! But what does Politifact show?



If respect for the rule of law was fading, then the rate of police being killed wouldn't be less than a third of what it was in the 1970's!

BUT if you listen to those news agencies that try to tell you how terrible things are, how the world is going to hell in a handbasket, how all the cities are hellholes of drugs and rape and murder...and if you don't take the time and trouble to see if those "news" sources's claims are accurate, then you will believe that yes, the world is a terrible, violent place.

Instead, if you ignore the doomsayers and instead pay attention to the hard numbers, humankind's got it better now than we ever did. And as far as our politicians go, yes, America's current regime is very corrupt...but I'm quite confident that in the big picture, they represent not much more than a speed bump - as long as they don't drag us into a terrible war, of course.

 

[PLizzy]

Yes, but you can believe we as a society need laws and also believe that most the laws we are being given are not the laws we need. Just because a system is preferable to anarchy does not mean it is a good system. The system in North Korea may be better than anarchy, but that does not mean that their system is good. Our system may be better than the system in North Korea, but that does not mean that our system is good. I'm also not bringing the cops into this because they don't make the laws.

If I was a police officer I could not in good faith slap handcuffs on somebody simply for smoking pot or whatnot. I by no means hate police, but I don't agree that policemen not making the laws excuses their participation in any injustices.

 

[Skeptic Bob]

You're far from the only one experiencing this level of illusion.

The homicide rates are far below what they were back in the mid 1980's - and this isn't just here, but over much of the world. What's more, relative to population, the world has been more peaceful since the mid-1990's than during any other such stretch in recorded human history. Terrorism was a lot worse back in the 1970's than it is now. Travel is much safer, too - back then, aircraft crashes were a lot more common, but now air travel is literally safer than walking. The death rate of police on the job is also much lower than it is now, but if you listen to certain politicians and certain news agencies, there's a war on against the police! But what does Politifact show?

View attachment 67225104

If respect for the rule of law was fading, then the rate of police being killed wouldn't be less than a third of what it was in the 1970's!

BUT if you listen to those news agencies that try to tell you how terrible things are, how the world is going to hell in a handbasket, how all the cities are hellholes of drugs and rape and murder...and if you don't take the time and trouble to see if those "news" sources's claims are accurate, then you will believe that yes, the world is a terrible, violent place.

Instead, if you ignore the doomsayers and instead pay attention to the hard numbers, humankind's got it better now than we ever did. And as far as our politicians go, yes, America's current regime is very corrupt...but I'm quite confident that in the big picture, they represent not much more than a speed bump - as long as they don't drag us into a terrible war, of course.

I don't think the reduction in police homicides has much to do with respect for the law, though. I don't think the law is why most people aren't murderers. I think post people aren't murderers because I think murder violates most people's personal code of ethics.

 

[chuckiechan]

When the police can murder unarmed citizens in the streets with impunity? Yeah sorry, I'm out. **** your society.

No they can’t.

 

[Skeptic Bob]

If I was a police officer I could not in good faith slap handcuffs on somebody simply for smoking pot or whatnot. I by no means hate police, but I don't agree that policemen not making the laws excuses their participation in any injustices.

I feel exactly the same, but that is of course problematic in itself. There are pros and cons to police being able to decide which laws they will and won't enforce.

Back in the days when Don't Ask, Don't Tell was in place, and I was an officer in the US Army, I looked the other way when I learned one of my soldiers was gay. I had a legal obligation to report it and I ignored that legal obligation. And I haven't lost a second of sleep over it. But what if all soldiers ignored all orders they disagreed with?

 

[Glen Contrarian]

I don't think the reduction in police homicides has much to do with respect for the law, though. I don't think the law is why most people aren't murderers. I think post people aren't murderers because I think murder violates most people's personal code of ethics.

I understand your point, but it isn't just violent crime - it's pretty much ALL crime - here's how it's gone for all crime combined:



Also, the rates of rape and sexual assault have continued to drop.

The problem isn't that there's so much crime - as you can see, it's gotten MUCH better over the past two decades - but that you hear more about it from the news. Thanks to the 24/7 nature of today's news, instead of not hearing about this or that tragedy after hours or days, these days you see it from every news site within minutes. If all you see in the media is how endemic crime and corruption are becoming, then yes, you'll likely believe it.

For instance, if you listen to most strong conservatives, they're likely to tell you that NYC is a hellhole of drugs and violence and homicide...whereas in reality, the homicide rate of NYC is slightly over half that of the state of Louisiana...meaning that one is almost twice as likely to be murdered in Louisiana as in NYC (references available upon request).

That's why you must verify what you see and hear with the actual numbers. Otherwise it's very hard to not believe that the world is going to hell in a handbasket.

 

[Tigerace117]

Laws are for little people.

Leona Helmsley

Actually, laws are for people I don't agree with politically. :roll:

 

[PLizzy]

I feel exactly the same, but that is of course problematic in itself. There are pros and cons to police being able to decide which laws they will and won't enforce.

Back in the days when Don't Ask, Don't Tell was in place, and I was an officer in the US Army, I looked the other way when I learned one of my soldiers was gay. I had a legal obligation to report it and I ignored that legal obligation. And I haven't lost a second of sleep over it. But what if all soldiers ignored all orders they disagreed with?

There's a bad side to soldiers ignoring all orders, and there's a bad side to soldiers obeying all orders.

It's just like when you suspect your neighbor is doing something illegal. If they are beating their dog or starving their children you'll report their ass in a heartbeat. But if they are just selling some drugs, or have sex workers coming and going (no pun intended), you're not going to report them.

While we don't want a chaotic society where people harm each other, we also don't want a 'snitch' society either. It's important that people keep their morals to themselves -- even if there's is "the law".

 

[Skeptic Bob]

I understand your point, but it isn't just violent crime - it's pretty much ALL crime - here's how it's gone for all crime combined:

View attachment 67225105

Also, the rates of rape and sexual assault have continued to drop.

The problem isn't that there's so much crime - as you can see, it's gotten MUCH better over the past two decades - but that you hear more about it from the news. Thanks to the 24/7 nature of today's news, instead of not hearing about this or that tragedy after hours or days, these days you see it from every news site within minutes. If all you see in the media is how endemic crime and corruption are becoming, then yes, you'll likely believe it.

For instance, if you listen to most strong conservatives, they're likely to tell you that NYC is a hellhole of drugs and violence and homicide...whereas in reality, the homicide rate of NYC is slightly over half that of the state of Louisiana...meaning that one is almost twice as likely to be murdered in Louisiana as in NYC (references available upon request).

That's why you must verify what you see and hear with the actual numbers. Otherwise it's very hard to not believe that the world is going to hell in a handbasket.

But can we draw any correlation in this decrease and actual respect for the law? Is there any correlation between this decrease and what politicians are doing? Or is it that we as a society are evolving independent of what bills Congress passes?

Note that there is a difference in saying I don't respect the law and saying I don't respect my fellow man. It is entirely possible you can have an ever increasing corruptible government while at the same time society as a whole acts more and more just to one another without regard to what politicians say and do.

 

[Glen Contrarian]

But can we draw any correlation in this decrease and actual respect for the law? Is there any correlation between this decrease and what politicians are doing? Or is it that we as a society are evolving independent of what bills Congress passes?

Note that there is a difference in saying I don't respect the law and saying I don't respect my fellow man. It is entirely possible you can have an ever increasing corruptible government while at the same time society as a whole acts more and more just to one another without regard to what politicians say and do.

I don't think there's any question that a lack of respect for the law will directly translate in a greater degree of law-breaking. But what we see with our politicians is IMO not related to a "lack of respect for the law" as it is due to race-resentment and partisanship.

1 - Race resentment: In any given nation, there will be one socioeconomically-dominant demographic...and when that dominant demographic begins to think (rightly or wrongly) its dominance is threatened, that demographic will "circle its wagons" and do what it thinks is necessary to preserve its dominance. In China, that demographic is the Han Chinese, and they persecute the Uighur and the Tibetans and others. In Mexico, it's the Hispanic Mexicans against the "Native Mexicans", the descendants of the Aztecs and Mayans. In Rwanda, it's the Tutsi against the less-powerful (but more numerous) Hutus - and the genocide in the 1990's was the reaction of the Hutus against the "persecution" by the Tutsis. And in America, the dominant demographic are the WASPs - the white Anglo-Saxon protestants. Their reaction to prove my point? After the passage of the Civil Rights Act, Nixon's "Southern Strategy" to attract the Southern racists to the GOP worked like a charm. In 2006, the GOP-dominanted Congress reauthorized the Voting Rights Act almost in lockstep...but almost immediately after Obama was elected less than three years later, the GOP began calling to have the Voting Rights Act repealed...and cheered when it was gutted by the conservative-led Supreme Court. Three years, and see how they changed! And now we see the rise of the alt-Right and white nationalism in the GOP - can you imagine Reagan or Bush accepting a self-avowed white nationalist as an adviser? I don't think so! But today's GOP did.

So that's the first factor - the GOP is becoming (as has been noted many times) the party of White America...and they are greatly alarmed by the "browning of America" - especially when it came in the form of our first black president. They are doing what they think they must in order to preserve their dominance. I am not saying that this is their conscious motive, but that this is the underlying motive behind much of how the GOP has changed over the years...and that most Republicans don't even see the connections.

2 - Partisanship: In addition to the above, in the 1980's and 1990's, not only was the Fairness Doctrine repealed, but there was the rise of the Religious Right and of right-wing punditry. The repeal of the Fairness Doctrine meant that news agencies no longer had to present both sides of the story - they could now present just the conservative side if they wanted (thus enabling the eventual rise of Fox News). That, and the Religious Right and the right-wing pundits (like Limbaugh, Hannity, Levin, etc.) became kingmakers in the GOP - no one, absolutely no one had a hope to get elected as a Republican if they didn't have the blessings of Jerry Falwell and Rush Limbaugh. That meant that the preachers and the pundits - and NOT the politicians - were driving the policies of the Right. Add to that the fact that the Religious Right spoke out time and time again against liberalism, and essentially (in the eyes of the Right) made it an actual sin to be a liberal or even to work with liberals...well, as a result, the GOP political arena became a circular firing-squad where each politician would say "I'm more conservative than that other guy"...and the most conservative would win. Nowadays it's almost heresy, anathema for Republicans to work with Democrats on anything - see Time's "How the GOP Became the Party of No". Sure, that was in 2009, but now it's even worse - Paul Ryan just set a record for passing legislation without allowing any proposals for changes to that legislation.

So...no, it's not a matter of the people losing respect for the law, but a matter of macroscopic demographic change, and of politics being driven not by politicians, but by preachers and pundits.

 

[radcen]

Seems all wonderful. **** the law, **** the LEOs, right? Too bad people don't think past their own nose, because who do you call when someone infringes on your rights or the right of your neighbors?
If every US citizen had enough self control to self discipline, we wouldn't need the law.
We have a lot of screw ups. That's still better than anarchy and a bunch of egoes doing what they want whenever they want to.
Don't let a few bad apples tell you otherwise.

Unfortunately the "few bad apples" have the power of force behind them to completely ruin your life. And they do so with virtual impunity. *IF* they get caught and prosecuted, the consequences for them are almost always much lighter than they would be for you or I had they not been caught. Being skeptical is not only smart, it's necessary.

 

[radcen]

I was raised to respect the rule of law. The older I get the more laughable I find the premise. I obey the law more often than not but it sure isn't out of respect. It is is because a particular law happens to align with my own ethics or it is because I don't want to deal with the hassle that would arise from breaking the particular law (jail, fines).

But the days of me respecting the law are gone and I am wondering if others here have experienced a similar change. I'll explain what I mean.

Our laws are passed by elected officials. It seems to me that elected office attracts the worst of us more often than it attracts the best of us. Seriously, the people who tend to rise to the top of politics tend to just be horrible, unethical people. Nothing in their behavior leads me to believe they are acting in the best interest of the People. And even the methods in which we elect these people are flawed. Our two party system doesn't even result in putting the most popular candidates before the electorate come the General election. And the system for electing members of Congress is no better.

We use a flawed system to put these corrupt and unethical people into office and we are to expect that the resulting laws they pass are in our best interests?

Am I the only one experiencing this level of disillusion?

No, you are not the only one. I have been going steadily down this road for years. But, more later. I'm feeling a nap coming on.

 

[Rogue Valley]

The older I get the more I realize that the purpose of many laws is to enrich the various government(s) of the land while other laws are meant to protect the elite.

Our two party system is broken, probably irredeemably so. The country is becoming ever more starkly stratified ... the donor class and everyone else.

 

[Goshin]

But can we draw any correlation in this decrease and actual respect for the law? Is there any correlation between this decrease and what politicians are doing? Or is it that we as a society are evolving independent of what bills Congress passes?

Note that there is a difference in saying I don't respect the law and saying I don't respect my fellow man. It is entirely possible you can have an ever increasing corruptible government while at the same time society as a whole acts more and more just to one another without regard to what politicians say and do.

I gathered from the OP that you were not talking about obedience to the law per se, nor shooting or not shooting cops, as such, but simply attitudes towards the law... whether those who once respected the principle of the rule of law, had lost much of that respect as the legal system makes less and less sense and those who make law are revealed to be corrupt, out of touch and self-serving. (The latter being FAR more than simply the "current administration" btw).


I have experienced similar changes in my own attitude. I tend to remain law-abiding, at least to such extent as I am able with so many laws on the books that the Department of Counting Laws now just estimates, chiefly out of a desire not to become embroiled in the legal system at all.

The years I spent in law enforcement, seeing first-hand how fracked up the legal system itself is, did a lot of damage to my respect for the rule of law. The two decades since with ongoing revelations about just how corrupt, self-serving, out-of-touch and bought-and-paid-for most of our political class is has very nearly finished me off.

Not entirely to be clear... the rule of law is better than anarchy and better than autocracy still... but I have become deeply disappointed with those who make and those who administer and apply the law, and the manner in which it is done.

 

[Thoreau72]

If one considers that in the US the Constitution is "the Supreme Law of the Land", and that in the last 15 years several laws have been passed that attack and otherwise ignore the Supreme Law, then hell yes, the rule of law has been dead for quite a few years.

They have changed their name recently, but the old LEAP, Law Enforcement Against Prohibition made the very valid point that poor laws hurt society. Yes, the drug laws hurt society in many ways, and it's been going on to one degree or another now for over 100 years. The proper remedy for poor law is REPEAL, but our leaders and their special interests have kept the drug war going for selfish reasons.

The loss of faith in the system described by the OP is fairly widespread and certainly valid. When Martha Stewart is sent to prison for telling white lies to the FBI, while Hillary runs for office unscathed for doing far worse, it is quite clear the rule of law is a sentimental notion that is not reality.

 

[HK.227]

I have experienced similar changes in my own attitude. I tend to remain law-abiding, at least to such extent as I am able with so many laws on the books that the Department of Counting Laws now just estimates, chiefly out of a desire not to become embroiled in the legal system at all.

An interesting and common observation.
Personally, I've found that a certain group of people (what you might call society's net contributors or "stakeholders"), tend to respect common law, even if they despise the legalisms.
If they didn't civilization would collapse in short order, so their behaviour really should be incentivized. Pity so little attention is directed towards that effort.

 

[worksforpigs]

I think societal moral decay is part of the issue as well as we now have a liberal political establishment which has been heavily infiltrated by radical leftists who teach that the rule of law was set up by the white capitalist for his benefit only and to oppress everyone else. If large numbers of people think that of our system of checks and balances, we're going to have increasing lawlessness and disdain for government.

Also, we have a increasingly permissive voting populace that does not demand people quit campaigns when moral issues emerge for a candidate. I've seen cases in local elections where mayors have been elected AFTER being caught frequenting prostitutes, or people running for various offices were caught having adulterous affairs. Since Gary Hart quit his presidential run after his affair surfaced, I can't name a single politician who had to quit due to his adultery surfacing. The outrage just isn't there anymore, it seems. People don't seem to care how badly a candidate treats his wife, as long as the sex with the other woman is consensual.

Now we have with the Moore case a ton of blatant one-sided political outrage. The uproar against Moore is far louder than against Franken or Conyers. It shouldn't be. We seem to be sliding into a situation where degrading, objectifying, illegal sexual behavior toward females is OK as long as the victim is over the age of 18 and the perpetrator is of a political party one doesn't like.