Report: At least 3 killed, shooter dead, after attack at California school

[jaeger19]

if you read his NRA hating posts you will see its all about politics. The NRA helped defeat Hillary and that was enough to cause a tertiary case of butt hurt towards the NRA

I agree.. and the weird thing is.. they don;t get how much their anti gun rants.. KILL THEM POLITICALLY.

You have blue collar workers, in rural areas.. guys that belong to unions.. that agree with almost all of the democrats platform...

And then.. the democrats start attacking firearms. And the democrats just don;t get it. They call those blue collar workers.. who love to hunt and fish and shoot guns.. "gun nuts".. which completely alienates them. they don't realize that those blue collar workers.. grew up shooting with their parents, hunting with their grandparents, that its a part of rural life. And when democrats go after guns.. they portray themselves as the elitist, Nanny state.. we (government) know whats best for you, liberals.. that costs them elections.

 

[TurtleDude]

I agree.. and the weird thing is.. they don;t get how much their anti gun rants.. KILL THEM POLITICALLY.

You have blue collar workers, in rural areas.. guys that belong to unions.. that agree with almost all of the democrats platform...

And then.. the democrats start attacking firearms. And the democrats just don;t get it. They call those blue collar workers.. who love to hunt and fish and shoot guns.. "gun nuts".. which completely alienates them. they don't realize that those blue collar workers.. grew up shooting with their parents, hunting with their grandparents, that its a part of rural life. And when democrats go after guns.. they portray themselves as the elitist, Nanny state.. we (government) know whats best for you, liberals.. that costs them elections.

many on the left see middle class Christian white males as their enemies but that demographic makes up a large part of the union membership which vote democrat purely on economic pro labor reasons. the collision of the unions with the hate towards the main demographic of the union membership is amusing to behold

 

[PIPEWRENCH]

When you say something as silly and ignorant as "It is clear stopping the killings is not the goal but attacking law abiding peoples rights is." That is the response that you should expect.

There is nothing silly or ignorant about the fact that attacking law abiding citizens rights and freedom will not stop the killings. What is silly and ignorant is not addressing the mental state of the people killing themselves and others because that is the root cause of the killings.

 

[Fraggle Rock]

many on the left see middle class Christian white males as their enemies but that demographic makes up a large part of the union membership which vote democrat purely on economic pro labor reasons. the collision of the unions with the hate towards the main demographic of the union membership is amusing to behold

Don't see them as enemies I am one of them. I stand a much better chance of being killed by a disgruntled white guy with a gun than by an Islamic Terrorist. So because of that solve the gun problem. It is great for your side to say it is a mental health issue. Well where is the solutions from your side since you are the ones that do not want to limit the sale of assault weapons. Since 2000 your side has controlled all of the branches of government for 7 years and we have had two...... Saying it is a mental health issue does not solve it at all.

 

[TurtleDude]

Don't see them as enemies I am one of them. I stand a much better chance of being killed by a disgruntled white guy with a gun than by an Islamic Terrorist. So because of that solve the gun problem. It is great for your side to say it is a mental health issue. Well where is the solutions from your side since you are the ones that do not want to limit the sale of assault weapons. Since 2000 your side has controlled all of the branches of government for 7 years and we have had two...... Saying it is a mental health issue does not solve it at all.

gun crime is decreasing as gun numbers and those carrying them increases. why should I feel a need to do anything? More guns, more armed citizens and less gun violence, why should we do anything to change that?

 

[jaeger19]

many on the left see middle class Christian white males as their enemies but that demographic makes up a large part of the union membership which vote democrat purely on economic pro labor reasons. the collision of the unions with the hate towards the main demographic of the union membership is amusing to behold

well..and what do you see a lot of democrats doing? Wondering how they lost the election and why blue collar workers, and poor and middle class rural people "voted against their self interest".

I want to grab my liberal friends and shake them and say.. "THIS IS WHY"... their irrational fear of guns and gun owners.. and their attitudes toward the people that own them or have family and friends that own them.. stirs up the fear of the nanny state, tell you how to live, regulation loving, elitist democrat.
You know.. this is what is crazy.. Liberals will fall all over themselves defending porn.. because of the right to free speech.
Liberals will fall all over themselves over abortion.. because of the right to privacy.
(and quite frankly in my opinion they should be applauded because those are very important rights).

But then they disparage others.. who believe just as strongly in the bill of rights and the second amendment.

 

[PIPEWRENCH]

gun crime is decreasing as gun numbers and those carrying them increases. why should I feel a need to do anything? More guns, more armed citizens and less gun violence, why should we do anything to change that?

I suggest more people joining the NRA and getting the wonderful training they have to offer would be change in the right direction. I support more law abiding citizens packing guns and the more training the better.

 

[jaeger19]

many on the left see middle class Christian white males as their enemies but that demographic makes up a large part of the union membership which vote democrat purely on economic pro labor reasons. the collision of the unions with the hate towards the main demographic of the union membership is amusing to behold

While I don;t disagree with your statement. I think it behooves the republican party to be way more inclusive than its rhetoric of late has implied. the demographics in this country are changing and hatred toward gay people, immigrants, young people, and non Christians is not going to fly much longer as a political platform.

 

[Moon]

We have more than enough gun laws. Let's try enforcing the ones already on the books.

 

[ReverendHellh0und]

I am a proud member of my ilk and want shooters sent to jail. As noted, under Clinton, we jailed lots of people. You got your facts wrong.

Obama let a ton of criminals out who had gun crimes on thier record. Are you sure that's what your ilk wants?

 

[Fraggle Rock]

well..and what do you see a lot of democrats doing? Wondering how they lost the election and why blue collar workers, and poor and middle class rural people "voted against their self interest".

I want to grab my liberal friends and shake them and say.. "THIS IS WHY"... their irrational fear of guns and gun owners.. and their attitudes toward the people that own them or have family and friends that own them.. stirs up the fear of the nanny state, tell you how to live, regulation loving, elitist democrat.
You know.. this is what is crazy.. Liberals will fall all over themselves defending porn.. because of the right to free speech.
Liberals will fall all over themselves over abortion.. because of the right to privacy.
(and quite frankly in my opinion they should be applauded because those are very important rights).

But then they disparage others.. who believe just as strongly in the bill of rights and the second amendment.

Yes that is the answer...lets all carry weapons and lets see what happens. What could go wrong. Instead of shaking liberals. Do this go to Vegas and shake those grieving families. Go to Newtown and shake them as well. Go to well anywhere and you will find a plethora of victims. Here how to solve the mental health issue.....no weapons for anyone until that is solved and you Conservatives will solve it pronto. Because as it stands you have no reason to care to solve the problem. Finding people with mental disorders is not that hard. It is people that feel the need to have 10-20-30-40 weapons and thousands ogf rounds of ammo. Lets start with those people....cause they are a little more like a lot off. A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed. Reading this you only get to keep those that you can bear at one time. Remember your Saint Ronald Reagan signed the first assault weapons ban.........or have you Conservatives gone so far left that he is now a Democrat. :lamo:lamo:lamo:lamo:lamo. That is all.

 

[HowardBThiname]

Here how to solve the mental health issue.....no weapons for anyone until that is solved and you Conservatives will solve it pronto. Because as it stands you have no reason to care to solve the problem. Finding people with mental disorders is not that hard. It is people that feel the need to have 10-20-30-40 weapons and thousands ogf rounds of ammo. Lets start with those people....cause they are a little more like a lot off.

That's just one more well-intentioned-but-doomed-to-failure idea.

There is virtually no way to determine when a person will snap, even if that person has been in therapy. In fact, the vast majority of people with mental issues will never snap, making it counterproductive to limit their means of defending themselves.

There's perhaps a greater chance of psychotropic drugs being involved, but good luck getting Big Pharma to back down -Obamacare gave them incredible power and they're not going to relinquish it anytime soon.

And, how would you enforce your rule anyway? Would you make it illegal to sell a gun to anyone on the "list" of folks on psychotropic meds? What about guns they already own? Will you form a new task force to search their homes? Their cars? Their places of work? And, even you can do that successfully, what's to stop them from buying another one on the black market?

Worse yet, if a gun owner suspects he has a mental issue, your rule would discourage him from seeking treatment.

It's just more fluffy-feel-good BS that has virtually no chance of ever being successful.

 

[Fraggle Rock]

I personally love the Canadian way....in order to purchase a gun a wavier has to be sign by parents and wife and or ex wife. This would stop those that are off in the head from getting a gun.

 

[ReverendHellh0und]

I personally love the Canadian way....in order to purchase a gun a wavier has to be sign by parents and wife and or ex wife. This would stop those that are off in the head from getting a gun.

Those people you are imagining, make up almost statistically nill, of those who shoot people.

 

[ReverendHellh0und]

Yes that is the answer...lets all carry weapons and lets see what happens. What could go wrong. Instead of shaking liberals. Do this go to Vegas and shake those grieving families. Go to Newtown and shake them as well. Go to well anywhere and you will find a plethora of victims. Here how to solve the mental health issue.....no weapons for anyone until that is solved and you Conservatives will solve it pronto. Because as it stands you have no reason to care to solve the problem. Finding people with mental disorders is not that hard. It is people that feel the need to have 10-20-30-40 weapons and thousands ogf rounds of ammo. Lets start with those people....cause they are a little more like a lot off. A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed. Reading this you only get to keep those that you can bear at one time. Remember your Saint Ronald Reagan signed the first assault weapons ban.........or have you Conservatives gone so far left that he is now a Democrat. :lamo:lamo:lamo:lamo:lamo. That is all.

Why are you applying the mindset of the mentally ill to law abiding citizens?


If a drunk driver mows down a family, should you give up your license to make children safer?

 

[Maccabee]

The NRA and right-wing's answer is ALWAYS....nothing will help prevent gun violence....so lets just keep doing nothing. That isn't an acceptable answer anymore. Reasonable and responsible gun regulation may not prevent every act of gun violence but it will prevent some of them and certainly is better than doing nothing.

Evidence?

 

[VanceMack]

if you read his NRA hating posts you will see its all about politics. The NRA helped defeat Hillary and that was enough to cause a tertiary case of butt hurt towards the NRA

Leftists love their Baba Yaga's. When they are pandering to Senior Citizens, its The eeeeeeevil republicans are trying to kill you. When they are pandering to minorities its the eeeeeeevil republicans are trying to kill you. When they are pandering to leftists over their anti gun agenda its the eeeeeeevil NRA is stopping us from enacting 'common sense' gun laws (which everyone knows to the left ultimately means gun gans and registration). When Hillary lost the election its because the eeeeeeevil Russians though to this day thee is STILL no actual evidence the Russians hacked the DNC servers.

The NRA...the anti-gunners boogeyman...responds to the leftist cry for gun bans. And when they do, leftists shriek I used to be a member of the NRA, but that was before they became a pro-gun owner lobby!" Yeah...that was probably back before a parade of anti-gun leftists used every dead child they could exploit as an excuse to pass some new law targeting the rights of law abiding gun owners as well.

 

[jaeger19]

Yes that is the answer...lets all carry weapons and lets see what happens. What could go wrong. Instead of shaking liberals. Do this go to Vegas and shake those grieving families. Go to Newtown and shake them as well. Go to well anywhere and you will find a plethora of victims. Here how to solve the mental health issue.....no weapons for anyone until that is solved and you Conservatives will solve it pronto. Because as it stands you have no reason to care to solve the problem. Finding people with mental disorders is not that hard. It is people that feel the need to have 10-20-30-40 weapons and thousands ogf rounds of ammo. Lets start with those people....cause they are a little more like a lot off. A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed. Reading this you only get to keep those that you can bear at one time. Remember your Saint Ronald Reagan signed the first assault weapons ban.........or have you Conservatives gone so far left that he is now a Democrat. :lamo:lamo:lamo:lamo:lamo. That is all.

See.. its this type of rant that just absolutely hurts the credibility of liberal democrats.

ANYWHERE in my post do I state "lets all carry weapons?"..

We all have reason to solve the problem of mass violence.. whether with a truck, a knife or a firearm. We all have a reason to reduce the amount of suicide in this country.. whether that suicide is committed with a noose, a bottle of pills, suicide by cop or with a firearm.

I have absolutely NO problem going to the victims families in Las Vegas and discussing effective and valid solutions to reduce mass violence. Nor Newtown, etc.

And what are YOU saying to those victims families? You don't seem to realize that a good portion of those victims families own firearms.. YOU are telling them: "ITS YOUR FAULT because you own guns. ITS your fault that you haven't solved the mental health issue.. YOU are the one at fault.. and the guns you own.. and NOT the fellow that actually committed these crimes.

IT seems to escape your mind that a good portion of these victims probably had guns at home, or their parents, children, or brothers and sisters do.

It also seems to escape your mind that Reagan was a LONG time ago.. Many of us, weren't even close to voting age then or even around.

 

[ultmd]

many on the left see middle class Christian white males as their enemies

The only people who believe that are angry middle class CONSERVATIVE white Christian males who seem to suffer from the delusion that they represent the views of "real Christians", when in reality they represent a minority of Christians in America.
the
Evangelical and Conservative Christians are the loudest, but they are a minority. And most Christians are repulsed by many of the values they reflect and the behavior they exhibit in the name of their faith.

 

[TurtleDude]

The only people who believe that are angry middle class CONSERVATIVE white Christian males who seem to suffer from the delusion that they represent the views of "real Christians", when in reality they represent a minority of Christians in America.
the
Evangelical and Conservative Christians are the loudest, but they are a minority. And most Christians are repulsed by many of the values they reflect and the behavior they exhibit in the name of their faith.

neither an intelligent nor accurate claim.


Orlando Shooting -- Gun Control as Left-Wing Identity Politics | National Review

 

[Nickyjo]

Obama let a ton of criminals out who had gun crimes on thier record. Are you sure that's what your ilk wants?

Right again... he granted clemency to 5% of those who requested it. As you no doubt recall, we reached a consensus in our country, with both parties recognizing that we had over-encarcerated people, mainly due to dumb drug laws. Obama put that notion into policy, and my ilk agrees. Take comfort, however. We still probably have the highest rate of imprisonment in the world, so you can rest easy. If you are interested further, you can find that Louisiana probably leads the states in rate of imprisonment. A guy wrongly jailed for 50 years just got released there.

Would you rather go with Obama, or the current guy who believes in torture?

 

[ultmd]

Yeah no.. the public does not support broader restrictions on assault weapons, or bans on capacity magazines, or the type of background checks that you anti gun people call for.

Yeah no.......stop lying. The public "broadly supports" EVERY ONE of those proposals. From the very latest Quinnipiac poll:

American voters support 65-31 percent a nationwide ban on the sale of assault weapons.
**Voters in gun households support a ban 51–43 percent.
**Voters support 60–36 percent stricter gun laws

...and a number of specific gun measures:
**91–7 percent for a ban on the sale of guns to people convicted of a violent crime
**62–34 percent for stricter regulation of ammunition sales;
**74–24 percent for a ban on gun modifications that can make a gun work more like a fully automatic weapon.
**It is too easy to buy a gun in the U.S., 59 percent of American voters say.

And this "broad support" has been consistent (and growing) for a long time now.

They do not support background checks on me.. so that my father can loan me his 30-06.

STRAWMAN ALERT! No one is suggesting background checks every time you borrow your daddy's 30-06. You're just making stuff up again. No one cares about you and your dad.

Increased funding on mental health? Whats unfortunate is that thought the NRA and most pro gun people support it.. it gets little attention because you anti gunners are busy calling for crap that won't work.

It's astounding to see the levels of dishonesty (or ignorance) in some of you. The TRUTH is that REPUBLICANS consistently vote to defund mental health care EVERY year. In fact, they JUST tried to do it again, a few weeks ago.

Look man..the proof is in the pudding. Your "reasonable restrictions" are not reasonable and thus get no real traction politically.

Public support........and political courage........are two different things. Your party has been bought and paid for by the gun lobby. That's why they continue to vote AGAINST the will of their own constituents. Again, even MOST REPUBLICANS support (1) a ban on assault weapons, (2) stricter limitations on ammunition, and (3) enhanced, standardized, mandatory background checks. The denials of NRA nuts do NOT change the reality of this.

Even Clinton admitted that the reason that Gore lost the election was due in part to the assault weapons ban. It had no real traction and was allowed to expire.. (and it didn;t help that there was no evidence that it worked at all. )..

As you have learned, the evidence proved that the Clinton AWB was working. And I don't really care about Bill Clinton's personal opinions and political analyses. However, it's always funny to see right wingers quoting the liberals/democrats they love to demagogue and demonize.....when it's convenient.

Yawn.. the NRA represents millions of gun owners. And you a "gun owner"... well.. that's more believable than you being a physician.. and WAY more believable than you having research experience (based on your posts) . I suppose your wife's father .. might have left a .22 firearm to your wife.. and that thus that makes you a "gun owner"..

LOL, So now your feelings are hurt, because I told you the truth about you pretending to be a doctor in the Health Care forum, huh? That's fine. Feel free to layer on more insults. I'll just stick to telling the truth about you. As for the NRA....yes, it claims about 5 Million members, but leaked records show that number is closer to 3 Million. So to put that in some context, that's LESS THAN 5% of all of the 70-80 Million gun owners in America. So, clearly many NRA members represent a "special breed" of gun owner, and do NOT reflect the views of about 90-95% of gun owners (like myself). What most NRA nuts don't realize is the percent of Americans owning guns has been steadily DECREASING for a long time now, even as total gun sales have been SKY ROCKETING in recent years. So more people are NOT buying guns. In TRUTH, the SAME relatively few people are buying more and more guns.

I suggest you look up "neurotic projection". You will probably find it easier if you google "narcissistic personality disorder".

LOL, not needed. I just taught it to you in my last remarks. I imagine that you just googled it. Too funny. So now.......my fake/wannabe anonymous message board "doctor" friend.... your next assignment is going to be to look up "charlatan".

 

[ultmd]

gun crime is decreasing as gun numbers and those carrying them increases. why should I feel a need to do anything? More guns, more armed citizens and less gun violence, why should we do anything to change that?

Wrong.

General Social Survey

American Gun Ownership Drops to Lowest in 40 Years

The percentage of Americans who are gun owners has been trending steadily DOWNWARD since the 1970's.

However, give that this FACT completely destroys your entire argument, above. But I don't expect you to acknowledge it.

Gun crime rates have been decreasing since the 90's, though. You're right about that. You'll just have to get over NRA/FoxNews promoted lies that you've been given as explanations.

 

[jaeger19]

Yeah no.......stop lying. The public "broadly supports" EVERY ONE of those proposals. From the very latest Quinnipiac poll:

".

Yawn.. nope. but I tell you what.. link to the poll and its methods. Lets examine the reliability and validity of the poll and any potential bias. I will await with baited breath on your ability to produce the poll and its methodology.

STRAWMAN ALERT! No one is suggesting background checks every time you borrow your daddy's 30-06. You're just making stuff up again. No one cares about you and your dad.

Sure they are.. that's what UNIVERSAL background checks are. Every time a firearm is transferred.

It's astounding to see the levels of dishonesty (or ignorance) in some of you. The TRUTH is that REPUBLICANS consistently vote to defund mental health care EVERY year. In fact, they JUST tried to do it again, a few weeks ago.

Hmmm.. one of the last bills to increase mental health access was cosponsored BY A REPUBLICAN. Your level of dishonesty is well documented.

Public support........and political courage........are two different things. Your party has been bought and paid for by the gun lobby. That's why they continue to vote AGAINST the will of their own constituents. Again, even MOST REPUBLICANS support (1) a ban on assault weapons, (2) stricter limitations on ammunition, and (3) enhanced, standardized, mandatory background checks. The denials of NRA nuts do NOT change the reality of this

Nope. Look.. even Obama realized that there simply is not the support for gun control that you claim there is.

As you have learned, the evidence proved that the Clinton AWB was working.

That's funny. The actual evidence showed no statistically significant correlation between the AWB and assault weapons/crime. That's the facts.

You trying to claim the "evidence proved" it was working? Holy cow batman.. does that prove you aren;t a researcher. Heck.. EVEN if you have had a statistically significant correlation.. it still WOULD NOT PROVE that the AWB worked. (since correlation does not equal causation). But the evidence after 10 years did not show any statistically significant correlation.

You sir are flat out wrong.

LOL, So now your feelings are hurt, because I told you the truth about you pretending to be a doctor in the Health Care forum, huh? T

Not at all. I don't have some perverse need to aggrandize myself. My credibility is well established here. One reason is that I actually provide research and discuss intelligently with people on this forum... while you? Well.. we all understand what you do.

What most NRA nuts don't realize is the percent of Americans owning guns has been steadily DECREASING for a long time now, even as total gun sales have been SKY ROCKETING in recent years. So more people are NOT buying guns. In TRUTH, the SAME relatively few people are buying more and more guns.

See.. again a perfect example of you not even understanding basic statistics.

First.. its really questionable on those polls of whether the percentage of Americans owning firearms has been steadily decreasing. Multiple polls show inconsistent findings. One reason is when you start from "steadily decreasing". ANother reason is that these polls aren't testing just whether americans actually have firearms... its also testing the willingness of americans to ADMIT to some anonymous caller.. that they have valuable firearms in their home.

Would you answer a poll.."please tell us how much cash on hand you keep in your bedroom drawer".? Wait.. maybe you would.

but here is the real kicker.. lets just ASSUME that you are right.. that the polls are right. that a lower percentage of American households have firearms than a couple of decades ago.

Guess what brainiac? THERE ARE MILLIONS MORE AMERICANS TODAY. Our population has grown exponentially... so EVEN IF its a lower percentage.. its a lower percentage of a drastically MUCH LARGER NUMBER.

Which means that overall the number of people with firearms in this country has INCREASED!.

Simple math seems to be beyond your capabilities.

 

[jaeger19]

Wrong.

General Social Survey

American Gun Ownership Drops to Lowest in 40 Years

The percentage of Americans who are gun owners has been trending steadily DOWNWARD since the 1970's.

However, give that this FACT completely destroys your entire argument, above. But I don't expect you to acknowledge it.

Gun crime rates have been decreasing since the 90's, though. You're right about that. You'll just have to get over NRA/FoxNews promoted lies that you've been given as explanations.

Hmmm

the US population in 1978.. was 222 million. At 50%.. that's 111 million gun owners

The US population in 2017.. was 326 million. Assuming that 36% is correct that's 117 million gun owners.

Now unless we are using "ultmd" math.. 117 million is still higher than 111 million.