Question for people who believe being gay to be wrong

[Black Dog]

Is my post to be critically analyzed of which I used God's Word as a significant reference, or am I the one to be childishly condemned for illustrating a 6000 year old truth? Just because Absolute Truths are ignored, does in no way reflect the notion that they do not exist. Sorry my friends, reality doesn't work that way!

Even though I agree with your post, you did put it up for debate. That is what we do here.

 

[Catz Part Deux]

Well only for some. It also does not say to persecute homosexuals. If this were the case we would still be stoning adulterers etc. Sexual immorality is a sin, but it means nothing outside of spiritual salvation.

In other words we all sin, but this does not make anyone evil including homosexuals etc. Does it put them in danger of hellfire? Yes. But aren't we all at some point?

1 Corinthians 6:9

Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God

The point of Paul's list isn't to single out gays and lesbians.

It's to show that, in the scheme of things, you aren't special.

Here are some key things for y'all to remember before you start to point out the specks in other people's eyes:

1. In God's eyes, you are FILTHY, gay or not. (Isaiah 64:4)
2. There is nothing you could ever do to be good enough. (Romans 3:23)
3. The only righteousness you have is what Christ lent you. (Ephesians 2:20)
4. You are saved by GRACE. Nothing else. You have done NOTHING that entitles you to judge anyone else's sin. The grace you've received was a GIFT, and not something you were entitled to. (Ephesians 2:8)

So who are any of you to point fingers at ANYONE ELSE'S sins? (Matthew 7:4)

Like I said...Christianity isn't about legalism. It's the antithesis of legalism.

 

[Catz Part Deux]

Is my post to be critically analyzed of which I used God's Word as a significant reference, or am I the one to be childishly condemned for illustrating a 6000 year old truth? Just because Absolute Truths are ignored, does in no way reflect the notion that they do not exist. Sorry my friends, reality doesn't work that way!

Welcome to Debate Politics. Did you get lost on your way to "The Believer's Forum"?

 

[OscarB63]

I figure it really doesn't matter whether I think homosexuality is wrong or not. that is a matter between God and the homo. :shrug:

 

[Catz Part Deux]

I figure it really doesn't matter whether I think homosexuality is wrong or not. that is a matter between God and the homo. :shrug:

I <3 you, Oscar. I hope you know that.

 

[getagrip]

Even though I agree with your post, you did put it up for debate. That is what we do here.

Absolutely, and my last reply was not meant to be directed at you. My apologies if it were taken as such, and I should have clarified that. Nor was my original post in this thread an attempt at a personal attack. I could have pointed out the poster who made the uneducated statement regarding Paul, though I chose not to. But I should also clarify that I will not allow myself to be engaged in sophmoric argumentum ad hominems as well. Surely you would agree that it would simply be a waste of everyone's time, especially considering the subject?

 

[Catz Part Deux]

Absolutely, and my last reply was not meant to be directed at you. My apologies if it were taken as such, and I should have clarified that. Nor was my original post in this thread an attempt at a personal attack. I could have pointed out the poster who made the uneducated statement regarding Paul, though I chose not to. But I should also clarify that I will not allow myself to be engaged in sophmoric argumentum ad hominems as well. Surely you would agree that it would simply be a waste of everyone's time, especially considering the subject?

You're going to be fun.

 

[Black Dog]

1 Corinthians 6:9


The point of Paul's list isn't to single out gays and lesbians.

It's to show that, in the scheme of things, you aren't special.

Here are some key things for y'all to remember before you start to point out the specks in other people's eyes:

1. In God's eyes, you are FILTHY, gay or not. (Isaiah 64:4)
2. There is nothing you could ever do to be good enough. (Romans 3:23)
3. The only righteousness you have is what Christ lent you. (Ephesians 2:20)
4. You are saved by GRACE. Nothing else. You have done NOTHING that entitles you to judge anyone else's sin. The grace you've received was a GIFT, and not something you were entitled to. (Ephesians 2:8)

So who are any of you to point fingers at ANYONE ELSE'S sins? (Matthew 7:4)

Like I said...Christianity isn't about legalism. It's the antithesis of legalism.

Hehehehehe! I guess you missed my last line....

In other words we all sin, but this does not make anyone evil including homosexuals etc. Does it put them in danger of hellfire? Yes. But aren't we all at some point? - Blackdog

 

[Catz Part Deux]

Hehehehehe! I guess you missed my last line....

In other words we all sin, but this does not make anyone evil including homosexuals etc. Does it put them in danger of hellfire? Yes. But aren't we all at some point? - Blackdog

I never miss your lines, baby. They sizzle.

I was just expounding on them.

 

[Black Dog]

Absolutely, and my last reply was not meant to be directed at you. My apologies if it were taken as such, and I should have clarified that. Nor was my original post in this thread an attempt at a personal attack. I could have pointed out the poster who made the uneducated statement regarding Paul, though I chose not to. But I should also clarify that I will not allow myself to be engaged in sophmoric argumentum ad hominems as well. Surely you would agree that it would simply be a waste of everyone's time, especially considering the subject?

None taken. I know you were talking about Catz, but I consider her a friend and think her reply (even though I do not agree) is worthy of a response.

 

[Black Dog]

I never miss your lines, baby. They sizzle.

I was just expounding on them.

Well then I have to disagree just to piss you off.

 

[Catz Part Deux]

Well then I have to disagree just to piss you off.

You can disagree, but you should know in advance that you're kind of cute when you get peevish.

 

[winston53660]

Well then I have to disagree just to piss you off.

Can't we all just get along here?:2razz:

 

[Catz Part Deux]

Can't we all just get along here?:2razz:

Why do you hate America?

 

[getagrip]

You're going to be fun.

No argument, traditionalists are most certainly in the minority these days, so in your worldview, I'm sure I will be. As Copernicus and Galileo in their day, I'm sure I'll get a taste of modern aspersions being cast my way.

As yet, I've not seen any post that has challenged Paul's message in either Galatians or Romans chapter 1. I look forward to reading it should it ever get posted.

 

[Catz Part Deux]

No argument, traditionalists are most certainly in the minority these days, so in your worldview, I'm sure I will be. As Copernicus and Galileo in their day, I'm sure I'll get a taste of modern aspersions being cast my way.

As yet, I've not seen any post that has challenged Paul's message in either Galatians or Romans chapter 1. I look forward to reading it should it ever get posted.

Oh, my. You're so persecuted. Those Christians who were eaten by lions had nothing on you.

Also...comparing yourself to Copernicus and Galileo, who were persecuted by a legalistic Christian faith? Beautiful.

I love inadvertent irony. Now you have me curious as to whether you are just an exceedingly clever satirist.

 

[getagrip]

1 Corinthians 6:9


The point of Paul's list isn't to single out gays and lesbians.

It's to show that, in the scheme of things, you aren't special.

Here are some key things for y'all to remember before you start to point out the specks in other people's eyes:

1. In God's eyes, you are FILTHY, gay or not. (Isaiah 64:4)
2. There is nothing you could ever do to be good enough. (Romans 3:23)
3. The only righteousness you have is what Christ lent you. (Ephesians 2:20)
4. You are saved by GRACE. Nothing else. You have done NOTHING that entitles you to judge anyone else's sin. The grace you've received was a GIFT, and not something you were entitled to. (Ephesians 2:8)

So who are any of you to point fingers at ANYONE ELSE'S sins? (Matthew 7:4)

Like I said...Christianity isn't about legalism. It's the antithesis of legalism.

The point of Paul’s message is a resounding warning to all degrees of devious behavior that will eternally separate one from God.

1. Isaiah 64:4: For since the beginning of the world men have not heard, nor perceived by the ear, neither has the eye seen, O God, beside you, what he has prepared for him that waits for him.

I see no relevance to your verse. Barnes Notes states:

The meaning here is, that nowhere else among people had there been such blessings imparted, and such happiness enjoyed; or so many proofs of love and protection, as among those who were the people of God, and who feared Him. Homosexuals are in no way to be considered “people of God.” Sodom & Gomorrah clearly illustrates that fact.

2. Romans 3:23: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Absolutely! So where in my original post did I ever deny or make mention of any perfection among mankind? Again, irrelevant, or are you trying to suggest that since we are all guilty of sin, continuing to engage in sin is acceptable to God? Jesus Himself stated that unless a man is born again, he will not enter into the Kingdom of Heaven. Being “born again” means to first recognize our sin, depart from it and seek forgiveness. Forgiveness is not possible if we continue to engage in a practice condemned by God! I feel truly sorry for the individual who will one day stand before God Almighty and try to argue against that point. Matthew 7:23: And then will I profess to them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity. This passage proves that these persons, whatever their pretensions and professions may have been, were never sincere Christians. The same remark may be made of all who apostatize from the faith, and become teachers of error. They never were truly converted; never belonged really to the spiritual church of Christ.

3. Ephesians 2:19-20: Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God’s people and members of God’s household, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord.

This only proves to discredit your pro-homosexual stance. Homosexuals will never become a member of God’s household without totally absolving themselves from this behavior. The foundation and chief cornerstone expressed in bold above, have outright condemned this behavior and can in no way be justified.

4. Ephesians 2:8: For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

Again, irrelevant to the subject.

Barnes’ Notes: Whether this passage proves it or not, it is certainly true that faith is the gift of God. It exists in the mind only when the Holy Spirit produces it there, and is, in common with every other Christian excellence, to be traced to his agency on the heart. This opinion, however, does not militate at all with the doctrine that man himself "believes." It is not God that "believes" for him, for that is impossible. It is his own mind that actually believes, or that exercises faith; In the same manner "repentance" is to be traced to God. It is one of the fruits of the operation of the Holy Spirit on the soul. But the Holy Spirit does not "repent" for us. It is our "own mind" that repents; our own heart that feels; our own eyes that weep - and without this there can he no true repentance.

5. Matthew 7:4: Or how will you say to your brother, Let me pull out the mote out of your eye; and, behold, a beam is in your own eye?

Notice the word “brother” used. This verse is solely directed at brother’s in Christ (true Christians), to eliminate petty quarrelling among themselves and to focus on their own misjudgments rather than to be pointing out their fellow Christian’s. To use it otherwise, Paul would then be guilty of Biblical contradiction as he taught in Romans 1.

Any presentation of Christianity which maintains standards, practices separation from the world and has a code of conduct is guilty of ”legalism” in today’s heretical teachings of the Bible. It’s not at all a Christian viewpoint, it is entirely a New Age conjecture.

 

[Catz Part Deux]

The point of Paul’s message is a resounding warning to all degrees of devious behavior that will eternally separate one from God.

Fail.

Romans 8:34Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. 35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36As it is written:

“For your sake we face death all day long;

we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.”l

37No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,m neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

That list no longer matters--because of Christ. Christ is the bridge.

1. Isaiah 64:4: For since the beginning of the world men have not heard, nor perceived by the ear, neither has the eye seen, O God, beside you, what he has prepared for him that waits for him.

Typo:

Isaiah 64:6: But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

2. Romans 3:23: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Absolutely! So where in my original post did I ever deny or make mention of any perfection among mankind? Again, irrelevant, or are you trying to suggest that since we are all guilty of sin, continuing to engage in sin is acceptable to God? Jesus Himself stated that unless a man is born again, he will not enter into the Kingdom of Heaven. Being “born again” means to first recognize our sin, depart from it and seek forgiveness. Forgiveness is not possible if we continue to engage in a practice condemned by God! I feel truly sorry for the individual who will one day stand before God Almighty and try to argue against that point.

I think you should feel more sorry for the man who alienated people from Christ, because of self-righteousness. A gay man is no more sinful than you, bro.

Matthew 7:23: And then will I profess to them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity. This passage proves that these persons, whatever their pretensions and professions may have been, were never sincere Christians. The same remark may be made of all who apostatize from the faith, and become teachers of error. They never were truly converted; never belonged really to the spiritual church of Christ.

Christ was condemning the self-righteous religious hypocrites, who did not know him. I find it interesting that you are quoting this verse.
Same chapter:

Matthew 7:1“Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

3“Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.

3. Ephesians 2:19-20: Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God’s people and members of God’s household, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord.

This only proves to discredit your pro-homosexual stance. Homosexuals will never become a member of God’s household without totally absolving themselves from this behavior. The foundation and chief cornerstone expressed in bold above, have outright condemned this behavior and can in no way be justified.

This is a claim, but it's not justified by this particular scripture. fail.

4. Ephesians 2:8: For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

Again, irrelevant to the subject.

It was completely relevant, in context, but nice try.

5. Matthew 7:4: Or how will you say to your brother, Let me pull out the mote out of your eye; and, behold, a beam is in your own eye?

Notice the word “brother” used. This verse is solely directed at brother’s in Christ (true Christians), to eliminate petty quarrelling among themselves and to focus on their own misjudgments rather than to be pointing out their fellow Christian’s. To use it otherwise, Paul would then be guilty of Biblical contradiction as he taught in Romans 1.

Paul didn't use this. Christ did...

This came from Christ's only cohesive sermon in the gospels. And, it immediately follows Matthew 6, which addresses legalistic religious hypocrites.

Any presentation of Christianity which maintains standards, practices separation from the world and has a code of conduct is guilty of ”legalism” in today’s heretical teachings of the Bible. It’s not at all a Christian viewpoint, it is entirely a New Age conjecture.

It's funny how your "Christianity" has very little Christ. It's just a system of rules designed to reinforce your internal prejudices, with zero sense of the big picture.

 

[Black Dog]

Fail.

That list no longer matters--because of Christ. Christ is the bridge.

I think you should feel more sorry for the man who alienated people from Christ, because of self-righteousness. A gay man is no more sinful than you, bro.

Christ was condemning the self-righteous religious hypocrites, who did not know him. I find it interesting that you are quoting this verse.
Same chapter:

This is a claim, but it's not justified by this particular scripture. fail.

It was completely relevant, in context, but nice try.

Paul didn't use this. Christ did...

This came from Christ's only cohesive sermon in the gospels. And, it immediately follows Matthew 6, which addresses legalistic religious hypocrites.

It's funny how your "Christianity" has very little Christ. It's just a system of rules designed to reinforce your internal prejudices, with zero sense of the big picture.

Catz you make it sound like a sexually immoral life style is OK with Christ, it's not. Neither is any other sexual immorality according to God.

Are we all sinners? Yes. Does this mean we should except sin and support it? No, we should not. I no more accept homosexuality than I accept adultery or fornication. It's wrong according to scripture, period.

I am not even certain what your point is. Just because someone is gay does not make them bad or evil, it does however as was pointed out separate one from God, just like other sins.

We are to bend to Gods will, not the other way around. In all things we are to glorify him. Immorality is not glorifying God.

Continuing to live a sinful life style puts your soul at risk. The end.

 

[getagrip]

It's funny how your "Christianity" has very little Christ. It's just a system of rules designed to reinforce your internal prejudices, with zero sense of the big picture.

Quite saddening that your brand of "Christianity" condones perversion instead of submitting to God's Word, and yet, not one refutation of Galatians 1 nor Romans 1 in all of this.

A gay man is no more sinful than you, bro.

Interesting that the OP is: "Question for people who believe being gay to be wrong," and the self-righteous approach is taken by you! A gay man is not a member of the body of Christ, and unless he removes himself completely from that lifestyle and repents, never will be. It's an absolute truth, I just didn't come here and make it all up for arguments sake.

Matthew 7:13

Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.

I consider this matter closed and leave with you Matthew 7:6.

 

[Catz Part Deux]

Catz you make it sound like a sexually immoral life style is OK with Christ, it's not. Neither is any other sexual immorality according to God.

Are we all sinners? Yes. Does this mean we should except sin and support it? No, we should not. I no more accept homosexuality than I accept adultery or fornication. It's wrong according to scripture, period.

I am not even certain what your point is. Just because someone is gay does not make them bad or evil, it does however as was pointed out separate one from God, just like other sins.

We are to bend to Gods will, not the other way around. In all things we are to glorify him. Immorality is not glorifying God.

Continuing to live a sinful life style puts your soul at risk. The end.

I think that we have a better understanding now, than was the case in the old and new testament era, that being gay is literally in the genes. And, I don't think God makes mistakes. I think that Oscar nailed it when he stated that it's God's job to rule on sin, not humanity's. You can disagree like hell about someone's lifestyle, but ultimately, it's between them and God.

In all truthfulness, I think Christians would be better served by reaching out and loving the gay community than by completely alienating them. I can't believe that's God's will for this situation.

Beyond that, you, and other believers, sin daily. Sin does not, in fact, separate believers from God, because Christ is the advocate. I'm a once-saved, always-saved girl, because I believe that is a scriptural concept. Gay Christians are answerable to God, not to me--or you. They have the opportunity to deal directly with God, and the holy spirit, and if they are sinning---GOD IS BIG ENOUGH TO HANDLE THAT JOB. He does not require your assistance.

As far as gays who aren't Christians--they are alienated, not reached, by these tactics. This whole "homosexuality is a sin" schtick is all about making believers feel self-righteous and not at all about being Christlike or sharing the message of the hope and love to be found in Christ. It's about condemnation, not crucifixion.

Who cares if homosexuality is a sin? There are lots of sins. You sin multiple times EVERY SINGLE DAY. But, sin and death have no power over you, because of Christ.

God still loves you, and he is constantly reaching out to you, even though you sin. And, because of that, you change.

That's the message of Christ. It's that simple.

 

[Catz Part Deux]

Quite saddening that your brand of "Christianity" condones perversion instead of submitting to God's Word, and yet, not one refutation of Galatians 1 nor Romans 1 in all of this.

In neither of those passages is homosexuality separated out as a particularly heinous act. If it is a sin, it is a sin of no greater or no lesser importance than being fat.

To God, ALL SIN IS SIN. So, unless you're posting threads about fat people and their ongoing sins against God because of their gluttony, you have some special issue with gays and/or you're a hypocrite.

That isn't about God. It's about you, and your not very cute little biases.

As far as gay people not being able to be part of the body of Christ, are you suggesting that homosexuality is the one sin that God CAN'T forgive? Because, I'd suggest to you that members of the body sin multiple times daily.

Are you going to say that gluttons/fat people can't be part of the body of Christ? How about divorcees? Someone who cheated (I've known plenty of those in the church)? Someone who failed to pay all their income tax (theft)?

WHO WOULD BE LEFT IF YOU KICKED EVERY SINNER OUT OF THE CHURCH?

Here is a simple truth: Christ came for sinners, of which i am the worst.

Own it. It applies to you, just as much as it does to any gay man or lesbian woman.

 

[Wake]

Catz, why do you think Christians reach out to homosexuals by telling them that they are in sin? Do you think it is that those Christians hate, or that they love? Why do you seek so strongly to twist the scriptures? ...To make everything OK? To bend Christianity to utter tolerance?

Question. Consensual incest. You argue for homosexuality despite numerous scriptures. Will you do the same for consensual incest? If not, why?

 

[Catz Part Deux]

Catz, why do you think Christians reach out to homosexuals by telling them that they are in sin?

When did Christ ever reach out to people in this way? What I'm telling you is...you're doing it wrong.

It's kind of disturbing to me how much time you appear to spend thinking about incest, though. Is there something you want us to know?

 

[Wake]

When did Christ ever reach out to people in this way? What I'm telling you is...you're doing it wrong.

It's kind of disturbing to me how much time you appear to spend thinking about incest, though. Is there something you want us to know?

So you don't see incest as immoral? If you did, you would have to say that homosexuality is a sin as well to avoid being branded a hypocrite.