• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Question about Jesus and Hell.

Rich2018 said:
Not to your religion, but he is divine (which means they are a god) to many Christians.

Jesus is god from god - as determined by majority vote at the council of Nicaea.
Click to expand...

Wrong...Jesus is divine but he is not God Almighty...there is a difference...
 
Rich2018 said:
No there isn't


You don't know your own religion.


Divine means you are god or a god.


1. Religion: of, relating to, or proceeding directly from God, or a god

Divine | Definition of Divine by Merriam-Webster


Christians believe Jesus is god. God from god.
Click to expand...

BS...I know my faith very well...

Jesus Never Claimed to Be God

THE Bible’s position is clear. Not only is Almighty God, Jehovah, a personality separate from Jesus but He is at all times his superior. Jesus is always presented as separate and lesser, a humble servant of God. That is why the Bible plainly says that “the head of the Christ is God” in the same way that “the head of every man is the Christ.” (1 Corinthians 11:3) And this is why Jesus himself said: “The Father is greater than I.”—John 14:28, RS, Catholic edition.

The fact is that Jesus is not God and never claimed to be. This is being recognized by an increasing number of scholars. As the Rylands Bulletin states: “The fact has to be faced that New Testament research over, say, the last thirty or forty years has been leading an increasing number of reputable New Testament scholars to the conclusion that Jesus . . . certainly never believed himself to be God.”

The Bulletin also says of first-century Christians: “When, therefore, they assigned [Jesus] such honorific titles as Christ, Son of man, Son of God and Lord, these were ways of saying not that he was God, but that he did God’s work.”

Thus, even some religious scholars admit that the idea of Jesus’ being God opposes the entire testimony of the Bible. There, God is always the superior, and Jesus is the subordinate servant.
Click to expand...

Is God Always Superior to Jesus? — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY
 
Elvira said:
Wrong...James recognized Job as a real person...James 5:11...
Click to expand...

And, James was probably wrong (if james existed at all that is)

The person who wrote in James name was wrong at least
 
Elvira said:
The dictionary does not define me, the Bible does...
Click to expand...

WTH? The bible is made up of words. The meaning of those words is explained in a dictionary.

You don't get to make up your own meanings for words to justify an argument, unless you're saying your god was too incompetent to use the correct words?
 
JustHanging said:
WTH? The bible is made up of words. The meaning of those words is explained in a dictionary.

You don't get to make up your own meanings for words to justify an argument, unless you're saying your god was too incompetent to use the correct words?
Click to expand...

Wrong...the Bible defines exactly what a Christian is...
 
Elvira said:
Wrong...the Bible defines exactly what a Christian is...
Click to expand...

Your reply is called a "non sequitur". Please read my post again, and reply to what I actually said. Thanks in advance. :)
 
JustHanging said:
Your reply is called a "non sequitur". Please read my post again, and reply to what I actually said. Thanks in advance. :)
Click to expand...

I did...the Bible was around long before any dictionary...
 
Elvira said:
Wrong...the Bible defines exactly what a Christian is...
Click to expand...

No it doesn't.

The MANY churches that it sprung forth do.


It wasn't clear what books made up the Bible until the council of Nicaea's majority vote.
 
Rich2018 said:
No it doesn't.

The MANY churches that it sprung forth do.


It wasn't clear what books made up the Bible until the council of Nicaea's majority vote.
Click to expand...

lol...we all know majority vote can oft times be wrong...
 
At best, I only have read what others quote from the Bible that implies Christ spent any time in Hell, whatsoever. At best, it requires interpretation. The Council of Nicea, which was supposed to clarify (interpret) stuff like this, did not.
 
stevecanuck said:
Could any of you who are intimately familiar with the bible please tell me if Jesus ever specifically talked about Hell, what Hell is, and who would go there?

Thank you in advance.
Click to expand...

WHAT JESUS CHRIST SAYS ABOUT HELL!

"fire" Matt 7:19, 13:40, 25:41
"everlasting fire" Matt 18:8, 25:41
"eternal damnation" Mark 3:29
"hell fire" Matt 5:22, 18:9, Mark 9:47
"damnation" Matt 23:14, Mark 12:40, Luke 20:47
"damnation of hell" Matt 23:33
"resurrection of damnation" John 5:29
"furnace of fire" Matt 13:42, 50
"the fire that never shall be quenched" Mark 9:43, 45
"the fire is not quenched" Mark 9:44, 46, 48
"Where their worm dieth not" Mark 9:44, 46, 48
"wailing and gnashing of teeth" Matt 13:42, 50
"weeping and gnashing of teeth" Matt 8:12, 22:13, 25:30
"torments" Luke 16:23
"tormented in this flame" Luke 16:24
"place of torment" Luke 16:28
"outer darkness" Matt 8:12, 22:13
"everlasting punishment" Matt 25:46

HELL IS A PLACE OF FIRE

The man in Luke 16:24 cries: ". . .I am tormented in this FLAME."
In Matthew 13:42, Jesus says: "And shall cast them into a FURNACE OF FIRE: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."
In Matthew 25:41, Jesus says: "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting FIRE,. . ."
Revelation 20:15 says, " And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the LAKE OF FIRE."

HELL IS FOREVER!

The Truth About Hell
 
Elvira said:
lol...we all know majority vote can oft times be wrong...
Click to expand...

Of course it can....that's the point. Jesus was made a god by a majority vote.


There are 66 books in the current Bible, thank Nicaea for that number.
 
Logicman said:
WHAT JESUS CHRIST SAYS ABOUT HELL!

"fire" Matt 7:19, 13:40, 25:41
"everlasting fire" Matt 18:8, 25:41
"eternal damnation" Mark 3:29
"hell fire" Matt 5:22, 18:9, Mark 9:47
"damnation" Matt 23:14, Mark 12:40, Luke 20:47
"damnation of hell" Matt 23:33
"resurrection of damnation" John 5:29
"furnace of fire" Matt 13:42, 50
"the fire that never shall be quenched" Mark 9:43, 45
"the fire is not quenched" Mark 9:44, 46, 48
"Where their worm dieth not" Mark 9:44, 46, 48
"wailing and gnashing of teeth" Matt 13:42, 50
"weeping and gnashing of teeth" Matt 8:12, 22:13, 25:30
"torments" Luke 16:23
"tormented in this flame" Luke 16:24
"place of torment" Luke 16:28
"outer darkness" Matt 8:12, 22:13
"everlasting punishment" Matt 25:46

HELL IS A PLACE OF FIRE

The man in Luke 16:24 cries: ". . .I am tormented in this FLAME."
In Matthew 13:42, Jesus says: "And shall cast them into a FURNACE OF FIRE: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."
In Matthew 25:41, Jesus says: "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting FIRE,. . ."
Revelation 20:15 says, " And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the LAKE OF FIRE."

HELL IS FOREVER!

The Truth About Hell
Click to expand...


If the Israelites had lived in the Arctic circle and not a bloody hot desert, would hell be an eternally cold place with no warmth from fire?
 
Rich2018 said:
Of course it can....that's the point. Jesus was made a god by a majority vote.


There are 66 books in the current Bible, thank Nicaea for that number.
Click to expand...

I don't care what Nicaea says...

Jehovah himself set the precedent for having laws and commandments written down. After speaking to Moses in Mount Sinai, Jehovah “proceeded to give Moses two tablets of the Testimony, tablets of stone written on by God’s finger.” (Ex 31:18) Later we read, “And Jehovah went on to say to Moses: ‘Write down for yourself these words.’” (Ex 34:27) Jehovah, therefore, was the one who communicated with Moses and instructed him to write down and preserve the first five books of the Bible canon. No council of men made them canonical; from their inception they had divine approval.

Just as Jehovah inspired men to write, it logically follows that he would direct and watch over the collecting and preserving of these inspired writings in order that mankind would have an enduring canonical straightedge for true worship. According to Jewish tradition, Ezra had a hand in this work after the exiled Jews were resettled in Judah. He was certainly qualified for the work, being one of the inspired Bible writers, a priest, and also “a skilled copyist in the law of Moses.” (Ezr 7:1-11) Only the books of Nehemiah and Malachi remained to be added. The canon of the Hebrew Scriptures, therefore, was well fixed by the end of the fifth century B.C.E., containing the same writings that we have today.

The Jewish historian Josephus, in answering opponents in his work Against Apion (I, 38-40 [8]) around the year 100 C.E., confirms that by then the canon of the Hebrew Scriptures had been fixed for a long time. He wrote: “We do not possess myriads of inconsistent books, conflicting with each other. Our books, those which are justly accredited, are but two and twenty, and contain the record of all time. Of these, five are the books of Moses, comprising the laws and the traditional history from the birth of man down to the death of the lawgiver. . . . From the death of Moses until Artaxerxes, who succeeded Xerxes as king of Persia, the prophets subsequent to Moses wrote the history of the events of their own times in thirteen books. The remaining four books contain hymns to God and precepts for the conduct of human life.”

Canonicity of a book therefore does not rest in whole or in part on whether some council, committee, or community accepts or rejects it. The voice of such noninspired men is valuable only as witness to what God himself has already done through his accredited representatives.
Click to expand...

Canon — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY
 
Rich2018 said:
If the Israelites had lived in the Arctic circle and not a bloody hot desert, would hell be an eternally cold place with no warmth from fire?
Click to expand...

And,did you notice, all the quotes were from the New Testament. It shows that concept is not very Jewish, and was a pagan idea grafted on by Gentiles later on.

For example, the 'lake of fire' comes from the Egyptian book of the dead, in specifically the 'Coffin Texts', and the papyrus of Ani
 
stevecanuck said:
Could any of you who are intimately familiar with the bible please tell me if Jesus ever specifically talked about Hell, what Hell is, and who would go there?

Thank you in advance.
Click to expand...



Matthew 5

22 But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother [e]without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’[f] shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, [g]‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of [h]hell fire.


Matthew 5
29 If your right eye causes you to [j]sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to [k]sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.


Matthew 10
28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in [h]hell.


"What is Gehenna?"

Answer: The word gehenna is the Greek transliteration of the Hebrew ge-hinnom, meaning “Valley of [the sons of] Hinnom.” This valley south of Jerusalem was where some of the ancient Israelites “passed children through the fire” (sacrificed their children) to the Canaanite god Molech (2 Chronicles 28:3; 33:6; Jeremiah 7:31; 19:2–6). The place is called “Tophet” in Isaiah 30:33. In later years, Gehenna continued to be an unclean place used for burning trash from the city of Jerusalem. Jesus used Gehenna as an illustration of hell.

Because of Jesus’ symbolic use of Gehenna, the word gehenna is sometimes used as a synonym for hell. In fact, that’s how the Greek word is translated in Mark 9:47: “hell.” The occupants of the lake of fire/gehenna/hell are separated from God for all of eternity.
Click to expand...
What is Gehenna?
 
Last edited:
RAMOSS said:
And,did you notice, all the quotes were from the New Testament. It shows that concept is not very Jewish, and was a pagan idea grafted on by Gentiles later on.

For example, the 'lake of fire' comes from the Egyptian book of the dead, in specifically the 'Coffin Texts', and the papyrus of Ani
Click to expand...

And they are ALL taken out of context...the doctrine of hellfire stems from pagan beliefs....
 
No Symbol of Everlasting Torment. Jesus Christ associated fire with Gehenna (Mt 5:22; 18:9; Mr 9:47, 48), as did the disciple James, the only Biblical writer besides Matthew, Mark, and Luke to use the word. (Jas 3:6) Some commentators endeavor to link such fiery characteristic of Gehenna with the burning of human sacrifices that was carried on prior to Josiah’s reign and, on this basis, hold that Gehenna was used by Jesus as a symbol of everlasting torment. However, since Jehovah God expressed repugnance for such practice, saying that it was “a thing that I had not commanded and that had not come up into my heart” (Jer 7:31; 32:35), it seems most unlikely that God’s Son, in discussing divine judgment, would make such idolatrous practice the basis for the symbolic meaning of Gehenna. It may be noted that God prophetically decreed that the Valley of Hinnom would serve as a place for mass disposal of dead bodies rather than for the torture of live victims. (Jer 7:32, 33; 19:2, 6, 7, 10, 11) Thus, at Jeremiah 31:40 the reference to “the low plain of the carcasses and of the fatty ashes” is generally accepted as designating the Valley of Hinnom, and a gate known as “the Gate of the Ash-heaps” evidently opened out onto the eastern extremity of the valley at its juncture with the ravine of the Kidron.​—Ne 3:13, 14.

Therefore, the Biblical evidence concerning Gehenna generally parallels the traditional view presented by rabbinic and other sources. That view is that the Valley of Hinnom was used as a place for the disposal of waste matter from the city of Jerusalem. (At Mt 5:30 Ph renders geʹen·na as “rubbish heap.”) Concerning “Gehinnom,” the Jewish commentator David Kimhi (1160?-1235?), in his comment on Psalm 27:13, gives the following historical information: “And it is a place in the land adjoining Jerusalem, and it is a loathsome place, and they throw there unclean things and carcasses. Also there was a continual fire there to burn the unclean things and the bones of the carcasses. Hence, the judgment of the wicked ones is called parabolically Gehinnom.”
Click to expand...

Gehenna — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom