Public education.

[ataraxia]

Can you link me to where you said specifically how to make the school board standardized?

Anyway, the number one reason children fail in school has nothing to do with the government, the teachers, the school board or administration.

Maybe. But schools CAN play a big role. Countries and governments which invest in the public education of their people get an outsized benefit and payback from their investments, almost universally.

Why Are Finland's Schools Successful?

LynNell Hancock explains how Finland's schools get stellar results through personalized attention for each student.

givingcompass.org

http://koreaneducentreinuk.org/wp-content/uploads/downloads/Education_the-driving-force-for-the-development-of-Korea.pdf

China’s heavy investment in education lays foundation for national development - Global Times

www.globaltimes.cn

Investment in Education and Economic Growth in India: Evidence from the Last Two Decades

Education is a key driver of economic growth and development of a country. It promotes productivity of the human capital leading to higher per capita income and economic development. Globally, rapid economic growth is contingent upon access to equitable and quality...

link.springer.com

 

[mrjurrs]

I understand that. I don't think I've ever needed 4 extra hours every weekday to get all of my prep and grading done. What do you teach?

SS.
USH, US Gov, Economics. 180 students

Some weeks a little more, some weeks a little less. We adopted new textbooks for all of my classes this year so the higher end is currently a regular appearance

 

[Josie]

SS.
USH, US Gov, Economics. 180 students

Some weeks a little more, some weeks a little less. We adopted new textbooks for all of my classes this year so the higher end is currently a regular appearance

Aren't most tests in HS done on Scantron (at least that's what it was called when I was in school) that can just be run through a machine to grade?

 

[JRTurner]

Where are these imaginary teachers who will take over for this SPED teacher? Teaching SPED is a very difficult job that not many people want to do -- even with a higher salary.



Of course.



What?


I reject your premise that the number one problem with students failing in schools has to do with the schools, government, school boards, etc. It's not. It's what's happening (and not happening) in their homes from conception until they leave their house. How do you fix that? Hell if I know.

Children from bad homes are teachable.

 

[Josie]

Children from bad homes are teachable.

I'm very aware of that. I never said anything to the contrary.

I said the number one reason kids fail in schools is because of what is happening in their home from conception. When kids come into kindergarten rarely ever having a conversation with an adult, never read to, never or rarely holding a pencil or crayon, never developing stable relationships with authority or peers, not feeling loved and safe -- they've already started way behind. Even with the best teachers, he/she will most likely struggle throughout their entire educational career - especially if they continue in the same home with parents who don't give a damn.

 

[JRTurner]

I'm very aware of that. I never said anything to the contrary.

I said the number one reason kids fail in schools is because of what is happening in their home from conception. When kids come into kindergarten rarely ever having a conversation with an adult, never read to, never or rarely holding a pencil or crayon, never developing stable relationships with authority or peers, not feeling loved and safe -- they've already started way behind. Even with the best teachers, he/she will most likely struggle throughout their entire educational career - especially if they continue in the same home with parents who don't give a damn.

As I said, children from bad homes are teachable.

 

[Josie]

As I said, children from bad homes are teachable.

Yes, you already said that and I agreed. I teach them every day.

 

[Kelby]

Yes, you already said that and I agreed. I teach them every day.

"Bad homes" can mean a variety of things but it's clear kids that have had their basic needs met...basic nutrition, shelter, safety, and knowing they are loved...are most ready for learning.

As you also know.

 

[Josie]

"Bad homes" can mean a variety of things but it's clear kids that have had their basic needs met...basic nutrition, shelter, safety, and knowing they are loved...are most ready for learning.

As you also know.

Yes.

 

[Josie]

Maybe. But schools CAN play a big role. Countries and governments which invest in the public education of their people get an outsized benefit and payback from their investments, almost universally.

Why Are Finland's Schools Successful?

LynNell Hancock explains how Finland's schools get stellar results through personalized attention for each student.

givingcompass.org

http://koreaneducentreinuk.org/wp-content/uploads/downloads/Education_the-driving-force-for-the-development-of-Korea.pdf

China’s heavy investment in education lays foundation for national development - Global Times

www.globaltimes.cn

Investment in Education and Economic Growth in India: Evidence from the Last Two Decades

Education is a key driver of economic growth and development of a country. It promotes productivity of the human capital leading to higher per capita income and economic development. Globally, rapid economic growth is contingent upon access to equitable and quality...

link.springer.com

Sure, they can play a big role, but the number one impact on a child's life will always be their parents/guardians and how they are raised. I imagine the culture of family in Finland, Korea and China is quite different than what we have here in America.

 

[ColdHardTruth]

Aren't most tests in HS done on Scantron (at least that's what it was called when I was in school) that can just be run through a machine to grade?

When I was in school, mid-terms and finals were that way.

 

[post]

Does public education create well rounded people or redundant minded sheep in wolfs clothing?

It is obvious when and where government has become an adversary of public education.

Republicans have to limit non-politicized public education,

2022, Educational Attainment, Annual: Bachelor's Degree or Higher by State | FRED | St. Louis Fed

Release Table for 2022, Educational Attainment, Annual: Bachelor's Degree or Higher by State. FRED: Download, graph, and track economic data.

fred.stlouisfed.org

States with lowest % of adults earning batchelor's degrees or higher, IOW, the G.O.P. base,
Massaschusetts 46.6% #1 percentage of adults earning batchelor's degrees or higher, 2020 election: 32.14% Trump

South Carolina 31.7%
Idaho 30.9
Tennessee 30.7
Ohio 30.6
New Mexico 30.1 % #38 Biden Majority, 2020
Iowa 29.5
Indiana 28.9
South Dakota 28.4
Wyoming 28.2
Nevada 28.0% #43 Biden Majority, 2020
Alabama 27.8
Kentucky 27.4
Louisiana 27.2
Oklahoma 27.0 % #47 65.37% Trump
Arkansas 24.9
Mississippi 24.5
West Virginia 23.1 % #50 68.62% Trump
.

.

 

[ralfy]

Check Pearson Learner Surveys, etc. What works in some countries don't work in others. For example, together with Finland, check out Singapore.

 

[Mircea]

Let us remember that 'public education' then called 'grammar school' was invented to make use of idle children as workers in the industrial revolution. They were excellent choices, could be chained to a job 18 hours a day, didn't need as much food and used 1/4 the materials for clothing.

Is that part of your fantasy history?

Depends on where you live I guess. Wealthier neighborhoods have better public schools. This is another way cycles of wealth and poverty get perpetuated in society.

They have better public school due to better and higher discipline standards, not because of money.

There simply is no correlation between spending and outcomes or spending and quality.

The most prestigious private school in India is $369/year and those kids go on to university and take American jobs.

As far as I'm concerned, the weakest link in the education system is the parents.

That's true only to the extent that the parents support the school, or they don't. It really is that simple.

Too many are under the false impression that the public schools are responsible for educating their children. In reality, it is the parent's responsibility to educate their children, and the public schools are simply there to facilitate that goal. Too many parents have abdicated that responsibility and then want to blame someone else for their children's poor academic performance.

That's obtuse.

My father was the first in his family to graduate high school and the only one of 7 sons who didn't work in the coal mines.

My mother's family was dirt poor but she got to go to Our Lady of Angels on a scholarship.

They were both excellent readers (and encouraged me to read which is part of their job) and good in basic math.

But, you want them to help me with algebra and pre-calculus?

Not gonna happen because they didn't take those classes in high school.

You want them to help me with chemistry and physics?

Not gonna happen because those classes weren't even required at the time they went to high school.

So, what, you want my dad to quit his job and move us into a studio apartment so he can pay to go to college and take chemistry and physics classes to help me?

I'll be graduated by the time he gets 'round to taking chemistry and physics classes and can educate me.

Most of what people know is out-dated by the time their kids are school age.

The majority of people do not possess the teaching skill-set so expecting people to do something they couldn't possibly do is just plain stupid.

Obviously, you're school didn't teach you how to think much less think critically.

 

[Mircea]

What really angered me was when I went to another school to visit and I realized how much more they had. They had supplies, new books, etc.. I was still using a printer that you had to turn a handle to print while these schools had printing machines, etc.

Thanks for admitting you're not really a teacher.

Show us the evidence that something printed in blue ink on a mimeograph negatively impacts a child more than something printed in black ink from a Xerox printer.

We'll wait.

You need books to teach? You should seriously consider surrendering your teacher's certificate and go find a job at Wendy's.

 

[ataraxia]

They have better public school due to better and higher discipline standards, not because of money.

It's a chicken and egg thing. It's much easier to be disciplined in your studies when your parents aren't on drugs and you're not dodging bullets at school, and you get after-school tutoring.

There simply is no correlation between spending and outcomes or spending and quality.

Not sure where you are getting this information from, but can't be from real-world experience. If you are going to make such claims, you have to have links- and it can't be Tucker Carlson.

"Recent estimates that use US data suggest that this indirect effect can be large: a 10% increase in per-pupil spending each year for 12 grades of public school was found to lead to 0.27 more completed years of education, 7.25% higher wages and 3.67 percentage point reduction in the annual incidence of adult poverty."

Does government spending on education promote economic growth?

Education does help to grow the economy, but research highlights some severe limitations.

theconversation.com

It's not nothing: The role of money in improving education | Brookings

The roots of the long and contentious debate about whether we should spend more for K-12 education can be found in two sentences from the famous 1966 report led by James Coleman: It is known that socioeconomic factors bear a strong relation to academic achievement. When these factors are...

www.brookings.edu

The most prestigious private school in India is $369/year and those kids go on to university and take American jobs.

Cost of living is much lower in India. $369 is actually a lot more there than here.

But still, very few of them, percentage wise, can still go on to university and "take American jobs".

The Chinese, Koreans, and Japanese know the dividends from investment in education can be huge. That has been their whole secret sauce to success.

Investing in public education worldwide is now more important than ever | Brookings

Shrinking government budgets could shift funding away from education and undo some of the progress achieved over the last two decades in increasing public expenditure in education throughout the world.

www.brookings.edu

 

[Mircea]

I find “public education” to be wildly different from not only one state to the next, but one town to the next.

Are you sitting down?

I ask because what I'm about to say may come as a shock to you.

The US is not Iceland with a population of 379,000 and one race/ethnic group.

If I had my way? I’d centralize funding and change the entire public education system to fix major disparities. The way the funding works now is fundamentally flawed and the kid in neighborhood A has every resource imaginable while the kid in neighborhood Z doesn’t.

There's no evidence money affects learning or outcomes.

When I went back to college earlier this century I worked as a 2nd shift supervisor at a meat-packing plant.

4 of my 6 line-leaders were from Africa. Why weren't any of the Black Americans line-leaders?

Because they didn't know enough English or math to complete the post-production shift reports.

One of the African guys was from Ghana and the other 3 from Senegal. One of the guys from Senegal said they had electricity sometimes in the afternoon for their 2-room cinder-block school. The other 3 guys were in a one-room shack with no running water, no electricity, no carpeting, no air-conditioning, no phones, no pets, no textbooks.

They didn't even have paper and pencils. They used chalk slates. But, here they are fluent in 2 foreign languages plus their own tribal language and usually one or more other tribal languages.

The packaging machines were made in Germany so when they turned on they defaulted to the German language screen. I caught one of them running his machine in German so I walked up behind him, "Was machen Sie den hier?" He freaked but he answered me in German so we started talking German.

When I was in Burkina Faso, the teacher had only 1 semester of college, she was only there 2 days a week and their "school" was 4 poles and a thatched roof.

Those kids spoke better English than most Americans and I taught them physics. We went to the river to get (extra) water which took a couple hours by the way, and then they dug a trough in the ground and put some sticks up like a bridge and then they had fun pouring water into the trough and watching the bridge wash away (which is what happened to their bridge and why we were there).

And I taught them some water safety (the "teacher" said every once in a while someone drowns in the river.)

Those kids probably came here and took American jobs because they're better educated which is deliciously rich.

So, whatever US schools are doing they're doing it wrong because it don't take a ton o' money.

 

[Mircea]

I also really agree with eliminating the mass-production mindset.

It never existed.

Again, if I had my way, each kid would have an IEP. And goals specific to THAT child. Especially in early elementary.

Unions won't allow that.

The mass production line is moving kids with a K or 1st grade reading level ahead to the next grade…and then that student can’t keep up and falls further behind.

That's the system the federal government created when it interfered in education.

I’d have kids advancing through different subjects and levels of courses based on their own IEP type plan. And they’d advance from elementary to middle and then high school based on achieving benchmarks - not simply because the calendar flips.

Some kids will move slower. Some kids would move faster.

Again, unions won't permit that but that is exactly what needs to be done.

Anyone who takes educational psychology show no a few things including the fact that children are incapable of abstract thinking until the brain acquires that ability.

Because that's true there are kids with 2nd grade reading, 5th grade math and 4th grade science skills or 5th grade reading 3rd grade math and science skills.

So a child is held back because of poor reading skills and not advanced in math or science even though they can and should be.

Mastery learning doesn't work either because teachers can't even handle students in the same grade at different levels. Everyone's at 3rd grade math but some students have mastered one concept but can't move onto the next concept because other students haven't mastered it and they get bored waiting for the other students to catch up because teachers can't manage their classrooms properly.

No it isn’t. The world exists virtually. There is zero reason that anyone can’t set up a Zoom call with a teacher to have their parent teacher conference.

I can think of a reason. It's called technology.

How is a parent supposed to set up a Zoom conference when there is no internet service in that area?

There are rural counties in Ohio and if you want internet, it's satellite or nothing.

Why don't they use their smart phone? Well, you know what? If they actually got a signal that didn't cut out on them they probably could.

Not everyone can afford internet access and even those who can cannot afford a computer and even if they could they wouldn't know how to use it.

Ever seen 8-man football? No, you haven't because you don't know that there's one school district for 4 counties because it's a consolidated school district and the school is a double-wide trailer with elementary students on one side and high school kids on the other side and the school district and superintendent and staff are in the single-wide trailer next to it.

So the high school is 22 kids and 14 are girls so that's why they play 8-man football.

You really need to stop making assumptions.

Food insecurity, shelter insecurity and lack of healthcare create much more real and tangible impacts on educational outcomes than ANYTHING else.

Except in the rest of the World where 2 Billion people go to schools that don't have running water or electricity.

A parent needs to be involved whether their kid attends a one room school house in East Nowhereville, TN or a crowded public school in West Philadelphia.

That's a message you should be preaching to the Welfare Class.

20-30 kids in classrooms is absurd.

You're right. Teachers should be able to handle 35-45 students like the rest of the world does.

The answer is MORE public school options - not funneling the money from the public schools to for-profit schools.

That only proves public schools still haven't gotten the message.

When will they get the message?

 

[PeacefulWarrior]

Obviously, you're school didn't teach you how to think much less think critically.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!! Hilarious!!!! (See if you can figure out why LOLOL!!)

 

[Mircea]

You can delegate a task (ie teach reading), you cannot delegate the responsibility for your child's literacy.

Sure you can.

A parent's duties are to encourage their child to read, instill discipline and respect, and ensure their child attends school.

Expecting a parent who doesn't know how to read, or has poor reading skills or who has an impediment like dyslexia to teach their child to read is nothing short of absurd.

It could cause more harm and damage than good because teaching your child to read the wrong way hampers their learning and may hold them back their entire lives.

You don't seem to understand that one reason to send your child to schools is so's they can learn more than you learned in the hope that they will be more successful than you.

In high school, my daughter took a mix of regular, honors, and AP courses. On parents night, I was struck by the disparity of parents in these classrooms. The regular classes had a sprinkling of parents while the honors and AP classes were virtually standing room only. These were parents who were actively involved in their children's education.

We call those parents "helicopter parents." I dealt regularly with helicopter parents.

"Why is my daughter getting a 'C'?"

Um, because your daughter demonstrates a mediocre understanding of theories of international relations.

When your daughter demonstrates above average understanding, meaning she knows more than the clown on the street, she'll get a "B".

And when her mastery of those theories is such that she can interpolate/extrapolate then she's worthy of an "A."

In case you don't get it -- and I don't think you do -- those parents are heavily involved not for the sake of their child but for their own sake.

They are more concerned about it how it reflects on them, how it looks --how others will perceive them -- than they are for their child's education.

You know, you got the MBA from Wharton so your child has to at least be as smart as you otherwise that suggests you're defective in some way.

 

[Mircea]

Ironically, teaching them to be "politically correct" involves critical thinking skills. It involves analyzing our history and culture outside of the status quo's version of it.

Nope. It only requires students regurgitating what the teacher wants to hear out of fear of getting a lesser grade.

In order for schools to hold students accountable, we need to build more schools to accommodate those who failed so they aren't just moved along to make room for the next batch of students coming up.

Nope. You don't need more schools you just have to manage the space you have better.

 

[JRTurner]

I wonder how well our military would function if we removed most of the money we spend on them.

After all, there are fierce, intelligent, and strong soldiers in "shithole" countries that do it for free.

We should be more like them

 

[Mircea]

There should only be one public education.

Maybe there should be only one shoe-size. If it fits, fine. If not, sucks to be you.

Equality runs rampant in our constitution--it should run rampant in the fabric of our society. It doesn't.

That's because you don't understand the concept of equality or the Constitution which appears to have been poorly taught to you by a sub-standard teacher.

The Constitution is a contract between me and the federal government and you and the federal government but not between you and me.

Given the same quality and the same standards, children will have equal opportunity to reach their potential.

So you say ignoring the reality that parents (or lack of) are impediments to reaching their potential.

No. You are wrong. I oppose removing 2% children from a school that is failing and advocate that we make the current school better than the alternative for the other 98%.

And all the while those 2% of children suffer just so's you can feel better about yourself.

Parents have been pulling their kids out of public schools for decades and what has been the response by the public school system?

Other than whining incessantly they've made nothing happen very slowly.

Special needs are important to address. That doesn't change the standards and quality that should cover all public schools.

I would not disagree.

I only disagree with the methods.

Special needs kids harm public education. Obviously, you're not a teacher's aide. One of the volunteers at the horse ranch has 3 autistic kids and another severely disabled kid in a 3rd grade class. She said it's a miracle those kids learn anything and she wasn't talking about the autistic kids.

Kids shouldn't have to sit next to someone who constantly screams at the top of their lungs so's they can't hear what the teacher is saying and is hitting them and the only reason the autistic kids aren't throwing things at the other kids is because they don't get nothing to throw.

It's disruptive and it has absolutely nothing to do with equality and everything to do with feelings.

The parents insist their disabled child be there so's they can feel better about themselves and so other people will perceive them as normal parents.

Install better classroom managers.

That's hard to do when the universities don't teach that or don't teach it properly.

It's even harder to do when school boards interfere in classroom management.

In Cincinnati, attempting to discipline unruly Black children has been deemed "cultural genocide." I kid you not.

Hence the need for high standards and high quality for ALL schools--a ONE public school system.

Quality is subjective in this instance. In case you don't get it, education isn't a printed wire board that you can hook up to a machine and run some tests.

QUALITY.

You keep repeating that even though you don't understand what it means and can't define it.

 

[Mircea]

I literally quoted you:

Students from well-off families are disproportionately represented in charter schools. This is no surprise as charter schools use various methods to exclude students who do not perform well, while public schools accept all students by definition.

So you say ignoring the relationship between performance and discipline.

It doesn't work that way. The costs are fixed, semi-variable and variable.

And those costs include paying people who do nothing but complete forms and file reports required by the Department of Education.

Obviously, you're not involved in business or education.

My uncle's company spent 800+ labor hours each quarter filing forms and reports to the federal government on time to avoid fines and penalties.

Just so we're clear on the concept, it is not a publicly-traded company so they don't sell stocks and make no filings to the SEC and this has nothing to do with the IRS. It's info the Commerce Department demands.

Make it the only lawful for-profit education source, and the parents of previously privately educated kids will ensure the quality is high.

See Finland.

Finland is a nation-State, The US is not.

Check Pearson Learner Surveys, etc. What works in some countries don't work in others. For example, together with Finland, check out Singapore.

I'm sure that will come as a shock and surprise to the many low-information voters here.

 

[ataraxia]

The US is not Iceland with a population of 379,000 and one race/ethnic group.

So you are saying we can't do it because we are racists. Got it.

There's no evidence money affects learning or outcomes.

There is. Not sure why you keep repeating it. It doesn't matter that you knew some guys while you were working as a 2nd shift supervisor at a meat-packing plant.

"Does Money Matter in Education?

• Yes. On average, aggregate measures of per-pupil spending are positively associated with improved or higher student outcomes. The size of this effect is larger in some studies than in others, and, in some cases, additional funding appears to matter more for some students than for others."

Does Money Matter in Education? Second Edition

A comprehensive review of the empirical evidence on whether and how money matters in education, written by Rutgers Professor Bruce Baker. This is the second edition of this report.

www.shankerinstitute.org