Public education.

[Manc Skipper]

So you say ignoring the relationship between performance and discipline.



And those costs include paying people who do nothing but complete forms and file reports required by the Department of Education.

Obviously, you're not involved in business or education.

My uncle's company spent 800+ labor hours each quarter filing forms and reports to the federal government on time to avoid fines and penalties.

Just so we're clear on the concept, it is not a publicly-traded company so they don't sell stocks and make no filings to the SEC and this has nothing to do with the IRS. It's info the Commerce Department demands.



Finland is a nation-State, The US is not.



I'm sure that will come as a shock and surprise to the many low-information voters here.

The USA is not a nation state?

 

[Mircea]

No, I think not holding schools accountable for student outcomes is why they are far less than they should be.

Outcomes can never be guaranteed if for no other reason than they are impossible to predict.

That being said, there are minimum standards that can and should be met.

Not every kid can read at level 14 on the FROG/Slosson Scale but using the standard Bell curve 68% should be able to read at level 10 (high school sophomore) and some will read better and some not so well but at least at level 8.

They should all possess minimum math skills for every day life like reading and balancing bank/credit card statements and calculating interest and payments on loans.

And basic science for every day life.

It's unconscionable that a society so heavily dependent on oil doesn't even have an ant's understanding of it and continually wastes band-width with stupid idiotic questions like, "Why are gasoline prices rising?"

Well, dumb ass, it's June which means States are switching to reformulated gasoline to combat pollution and the EPA says you can't mix reformulated with unreformulated which means you have to drain the tanks that supply the gas stations in your area before you can fill them up with reformulated and since it takes times for the 15 out of the 121 operating refineries that actually do produce gasoline to switch over and refine reformulated gasoline so there's a bit of a time lag and when demand is constant but supply is short prices rise plus they stay a little higher because reformulated costs mo' money to make.

And once they learn that the rest of the world has the champaign of oils (Russia and the Saudis have the Dom Perignon of oils) and we got stuck with the Mad Dog 20/20 of oils with a little bit of Boone's Farm Tickled Pink thrown in they'll stop asking even dumber questions like why in the hell have we exported 219,046,000 barrels of gasoline this year?

Well, that's only 9,199,932,000 or 9.2 Billion gallons because you got the Mad Dog 20/20 of oils and you'd pitch a hissy fit if you had to pay $6/gallon for that gasoline (since it's loaded with Sulfur).

Because one size does not fit all, that is yet another reason why choice is so important.

Well, some people are engorged with penis envy and if their life sucks they think yours should, too.

My youngest son reads and speaks Latin. He's in the 4th Grade.

Which public schools teach Latin? That's a trick question because none of them do which is why he's in a private school.

It's sad, really, because it's been repeatedly demonstrated that people who have at least a working knowledge of Latin score higher on the SAT verbal.

My youngest daughter wants to go to a private school and we'll probably send her because the public schools don't have what we need and we ain't moving just so's we can be in a school district that might offer something even remotely close.

Hmm… how can both of the following ‘facts’ be true?

Well, what did you expect?

Unions totally suck, especially teacher's unions.

We fought them in Ohio for years over tenure.

The tenure system as it stands is harmful to everyone: the teacher, the kids, the parents, the school district and the community.

Why? Because it's granted by the school district and once a teacher gets tenure they never leave because they lose their tenure.

In keeping with educator D Russell Lee, his philosophy was you hire the best and brightest young teachers, pay them a premium salary, and after a few years you kick their asses out and if they won't leave then don't give them any pay raises.

And then you also recruit the best and most experienced teachers and pay them a premium.

So to that end we had bill that would take away tenure from the school districts and give it to the county boards of education who would grant tenure based on objective criteria like years of experience and post-graduate education and then limited subjective criteria like performance.

That would allow a teacher to teach anywhere in the county and keep their tenure. Not a big deal for a county that has one school district but in Hamilton County where there are 22 school districts it would be a big deal.

Then the State would grant tenure after more years of experience and education and that would allow the teacher to teach anywhere in the State and keep their tenure.

So it's a win-win for everyone because teachers can move around from rural to urban to suburban to semi-rural to urban districts and not lose their tenure and they bring all that experience plus different perspectives with them.

But the unions adamantly refused to even consider it because they suck big time.

 

[ralfy]

Consider John Taylor Gatto's points about it.

 

[Mircea]

Students per class.
Increased paid teacher prep time
Year round schedule

Typical musings from a wannabe.

I reject your premise that the number one problem with students failing in schools has to do with the schools, government, school boards, etc. It's not.

Yes, it is because they are resistant to change and loathe to implement any policies that they haven't dreamed up on their own.

How much pay does a lawyer get while working outside the courtroom? How much does a doctor earn when she is not in the operating room?

Way more than you do and deservedly so.

I have a new word for your very limited vocabulary: Specialization.

Look into it.

Honestly? I spend a significant time each week prepping for classes and grading student work. Imo, teachers should receive 40% of their income for the work done outside of the classroom. If I got paid for it, my classes and my scoring would be much deeper.

Last week I spent @ 25 hours in class, and about 23 hours outside of class.

So you suck as a teacher and don't know how to manage your time.

If you have to do things outside of school, you're doing it wrong.

SS.
USH, US Gov, Economics. 180 students

Some weeks a little more, some weeks a little less. We adopted new textbooks for all of my classes this year so the higher end is currently a regular appearance

I can teach government, economics, history and geography and I don't need textbooks to do that and I don't need to spend time out of class to do anything.

You do know what a lesson plan is, don't you?

Maybe if you assigned homework to students instead of busy work you wouldn't be wasting so much of your time.

 

[mrjurrs]

Typical musings from a wannabe.



Yes, it is because they are resistant to change and loathe to implement any policies that they haven't dreamed up on their own.



Way more than you do and deservedly so.

I have a new word for your very limited vocabulary: Specialization.

Look into it.



So you suck as a teacher and don't know how to manage your time.

If you have to do things outside of school, you're doing it wrong.



I can teach government, economics, history and geography and I don't need textbooks to do that and I don't need to spend time out of class to do anything.

You do know what a lesson plan is, don't you?

Maybe if you assigned homework to students instead of busy work you wouldn't be wasting so much of your time.

I recognize your type. Your class should be the most important thing in their lives, even though none of your classes require a prerequisite and no future class requires your class as a prerequisite.

Really? Specialization? Let's put education into the marketplace and see who makes more, teachers or lawyers.

When do you grade critical thinking assignments? During class?

Until our district provides internet access to all students, the foundation of my classes are based on resources available to all students. \

Most of my students work is completed in class. When I am there to assist them.

Planning, refining, grading. Any of those ring a bell?

 

[RF667799]

Wow. I'm sure there are plenty of intelligent parents out there. How insulting.

“When I was a boy of 14, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be 21, I was astonished at how much the old man had learned in seven years.”​

― Mark Twain

 

[JRTurner]

Maybe there should be only one shoe-size. If it fits, fine. If not, sucks to be you.



That's because you don't understand the concept of equality or the Constitution which appears to have been poorly taught to you by a sub-standard teacher.

The Constitution is a contract between me and the federal government and you and the federal government but not between you and me.



So you say ignoring the reality that parents (or lack of) are impediments to reaching their potential.




And all the while those 2% of children suffer just so's you can feel better about yourself.

Parents have been pulling their kids out of public schools for decades and what has been the response by the public school system?

Other than whining incessantly they've made nothing happen very slowly.



I would not disagree.

I only disagree with the methods.

Special needs kids harm public education. Obviously, you're not a teacher's aide. One of the volunteers at the horse ranch has 3 autistic kids and another severely disabled kid in a 3rd grade class. She said it's a miracle those kids learn anything and she wasn't talking about the autistic kids.

Kids shouldn't have to sit next to someone who constantly screams at the top of their lungs so's they can't hear what the teacher is saying and is hitting them and the only reason the autistic kids aren't throwing things at the other kids is because they don't get nothing to throw.

It's disruptive and it has absolutely nothing to do with equality and everything to do with feelings.

The parents insist their disabled child be there so's they can feel better about themselves and so other people will perceive them as normal parents.




That's hard to do when the universities don't teach that or don't teach it properly.

It's even harder to do when school boards interfere in classroom management.

In Cincinnati, attempting to discipline unruly Black children has been deemed "cultural genocide." I kid you not.



Quality is subjective in this instance. In case you don't get it, education isn't a printed wire board that you can hook up to a machine and run some tests.



You keep repeating that even though you don't understand what it means and can't define it.

I responded to the same regurgitated talking points a month ago.

You're far to late to the party to entertain.

 

[renee]

Thanks for admitting you're not really a teacher.

Show us the evidence that something printed in blue ink on a mimeograph negatively impacts a child more than something printed in black ink from a Xerox printer.

We'll wait.

You need books to teach? You should seriously consider surrendering your teacher's certificate and go find a job at Wendy's.

I sure hope you’re kidding..no one could seriously write such silliness.

 

[renee]

It never existed.



Unions won't allow that.


That's the system the federal government created when it interfered in education.



Again, unions won't permit that but that is exactly what needs to be done.

Anyone who takes educational psychology show no a few things including the fact that children are incapable of abstract thinking until the brain acquires that ability.

Because that's true there are kids with 2nd grade reading, 5th grade math and 4th grade science skills or 5th grade reading 3rd grade math and science skills.

So a child is held back because of poor reading skills and not advanced in math or science even though they can and should be.

Mastery learning doesn't work either because teachers can't even handle students in the same grade at different levels. Everyone's at 3rd grade math but some students have mastered one concept but can't move onto the next concept because other students haven't mastered it and they get bored waiting for the other students to catch up because teachers can't manage their classrooms properly.



I can think of a reason. It's called technology.

How is a parent supposed to set up a Zoom conference when there is no internet service in that area?

There are rural counties in Ohio and if you want internet, it's satellite or nothing.

Why don't they use their smart phone? Well, you know what? If they actually got a signal that didn't cut out on them they probably could.

Not everyone can afford internet access and even those who can cannot afford a computer and even if they could they wouldn't know how to use it.

Ever seen 8-man football? No, you haven't because you don't know that there's one school district for 4 counties because it's a consolidated school district and the school is a double-wide trailer with elementary students on one side and high school kids on the other side and the school district and superintendent and staff are in the single-wide trailer next to it.

So the high school is 22 kids and 14 are girls so that's why they play 8-man football.

You really need to stop making assumptions.



Except in the rest of the World where 2 Billion people go to schools that don't have running water or electricity.



That's a message you should be preaching to the Welfare Class.




You're right. Teachers should be able to handle 35-45 students like the rest of the world does.



That only proves public schools still haven't gotten the message.

When will they get the message?

And then you wonder why we are unable to get teachers? Hi started teaching and had 45 in a class and thank goodness the union lowered it to 32. What you are basically saying is that billions of poor people go to school who don’t have running water or electricity and I say you are full of it

 

[renee]

So you are saying we can't do it because we are racists. Got it.


There is. Not sure why you keep repeating it. It doesn't matter that you knew some guys while you were working as a 2nd shift supervisor at a meat-packing plant.

"Does Money Matter in Education?

• Yes. On average, aggregate measures of per-pupil spending are positively associated with improved or higher student outcomes. The size of this effect is larger in some studies than in others, and, in some cases, additional funding appears to matter more for some students than for others."

Does Money Matter in Education? Second Edition

A comprehensive review of the empirical evidence on whether and how money matters in education, written by Rutgers Professor Bruce Baker. This is the second edition of this report.

www.shankerinstitute.org

I taught in one of the roughest districts in Brooklyn, New York, and we finally after many years got funding that helped poor children. I cannot tell you how much of my own money I spent making sure they had notebooks and writing needs
Another difference in poverty areas as compared to wealthy areas is the amount of donations they get from parents whether it be money or equipment. Most of my students parents worked damned hard and like all parent they wanted the best for their children
Something of interest. We got lots of kids who flunked out of Catholic school so they went from private school to my school and the Catholic school looked good because they didn’t have failing students….we got them!

 

[renee]

Maybe there should be only one shoe-size. If it fits, fine. If not, sucks to be you.



That's because you don't understand the concept of equality or the Constitution which appears to have been poorly taught to you by a sub-standard teacher.

The Constitution is a contract between me and the federal government and you and the federal government but not between you and me.



So you say ignoring the reality that parents (or lack of) are impediments to reaching their potential.




And all the while those 2% of children suffer just so's you can feel better about yourself.

Parents have been pulling their kids out of public schools for decades and what has been the response by the public school system?

Other than whining incessantly they've made nothing happen very slowly.



I would not disagree.

I only disagree with the methods.

Special needs kids harm public education. Obviously, you're not a teacher's aide. One of the volunteers at the horse ranch has 3 autistic kids and another severely disabled kid in a 3rd grade class. She said it's a miracle those kids learn anything and she wasn't talking about the autistic kids.

Kids shouldn't have to sit next to someone who constantly screams at the top of their lungs so's they can't hear what the teacher is saying and is hitting them and the only reason the autistic kids aren't throwing things at the other kids is because they don't get nothing to throw.

It's disruptive and it has absolutely nothing to do with equality and everything to do with feelings.

The parents insist their disabled child be there so's they can feel better about themselves and so other people will perceive them as normal parents.




That's hard to do when the universities don't teach that or don't teach it properly.

It's even harder to do when school boards interfere in classroom management.

In Cincinnati, attempting to discipline unruly Black children has been deemed "cultural genocide." I kid you not.



Quality is subjective in this instance. In case you don't get it, education isn't a printed wire board that you can hook up to a machine and run some tests.



You keep repeating that even though you don't understand what it means and can't define it.

I wrote a book that has done very well , on classroom management. As a result, I do a lot of keynoting and one of the first things I say is that teaching is a talent. Some people have it and some don’t…..
My school was part of an experiment and it was fantastic. My school building was three stories and had 1000 kids. We made each floor a separate mini school with about 300 kids in each school. Each school had a unique quality. My mini school was called the school for social action. It had the same curriculum that was required but two afternoons a week they had to volunteer somewhere. It was absolutely amazing amazing. We knew every kid and the kids were flourishing. But as usual, as soon as it became a success, they cut the funding. It was like the best private school.

 

[ataraxia]

I taught in one of the roughest districts in Brooklyn, New York, and we finally after many years got funding that helped poor children. I cannot tell you how much of my own money I spent making sure they had notebooks and writing needs
Another difference in poverty areas as compared to wealthy areas is the amount of donations they get from parents whether it be money or equipment. Most of my students parents worked damned hard and like all parent they wanted the best for their children
Something of interest. We got lots of kids who flunked out of Catholic school so they went from private school to my school and the Catholic school looked good because they didn’t have failing students….we got them!

Who knew? Societies with too extreme differences in the level of wealth and poverty are not stable in the long term, politically or economically.