Prostitution

[lurchadams]

I've actually been "exposed" to the sex trade through a couple of women I've known. One actually worked at the Bunny Ranch for a bit.

While many are drug addicts or psychological slaves to pimps, many also just enjoy sex and enjoy the doctor/lawyer income level. Its nice to pull an upper middle class income part time.

Not everybody considers it degrading. Not everybody is being "damaged".

And much of the "damage" comes from prostitution being illegal in the first place.

All black markets are that way.

And they exist everywhere that something people want is forbidden.

Scumbags prefer the shadows.

Everything is better out in the light.

And its nobody's business what one willingly chooses to do with their bodies.

Our bodies are the only things that are really ours.

A friend of mine works part time as an escort as well.

 

[SMTA]

Prostitution is illegal in most US states but:


Is there any valid argument against prostitution ?

It's Trump's only way to get *****.

 

[soylentgreen]

No matter how you slice and dice it, prostitution is an ugly, sleazy business that does women no good. Women with real choices never choose prostitution. It's an act of desperation, driven by low self-esteem. Only damaged women would degrade themselves like that. You can pretend it's men who objectify them, or that prostitution is a normal career choice, but you're just kidding yourself.

FYI; when you offer sex on the open market for money, it is a commodity.

Not at all. For you, for some reason, sex is an ugly, sleazy business that does women no good.

This is all about you, a male, choosing to see prostitution as degrading and demanding that women must see it that way as well.

 

[dirtpoorchris]

personally i think the porn industry and prostitution is way past disgusting.

but it is there and has been and always will be.

obviously when faced with the reality of a $5 an hour waitress job or $500 a night with some disgusting hairy man a lot of women choose the latter.

Now if you are really interested in protecting those women then the sex trade should be brought into the light. Licensed brothels with licensed prostitutes closely regulated. won't stop the illegal trade but should give the women a safer option and put a dent in it.

what we are doing now by criminalizing it is just about as successful as our War on Drugs.

Then that just inflates prices everywhere and ends up paying a boss or den-mamma money for nothing. Ends up making money hungry people become the boss. It should start with independents and they can contract out IF THEY WANT TO. But seeing as this is such an odd job the contract should also be leavable at will by the prostitute. So you cant have a girl sign a 1 year contract to a "service provider".

 

[rickc]

i was going to post a link to an escort service here in tallahassee just to show how easy it is but the ads are just pornographic.

hit Google if you are curious

 

[Waddy]

Not at all. For you, for some reason, sex is an ugly, sleazy business that does women no good.

This is all about you, a male, choosing to see prostitution as degrading and demanding that women must see it that way as well.

Sex isn't the problem. Sex is a wonderful idea. People should get all of it they can. Sex for money, however, is a desperate, ugly business that does women no good. And yes, I do see it that way, but I don't insist that women see it that way at all. They are free to form their own opinions. I would hope they do, and set their sights on better ways of earning a living.

And why do your consider mine a strictly male opinion? I asked my wife about it and she says prostitution is indeed degrading to all women, not just the hookers. So it's an opinion shared by many, many women I suspect, maybe even the majority of women. You might just be in the minority on this issue.

 

[dirtpoorchris]

Sex isn't the problem. Sex is a wonderful idea. People should get all of it they can. Sex for money, however, is a desperate, ugly business that does women no good. And yes, I do see it that way, but I don't insist that women see it that way at all. They are free to form their own opinions. I would hope they do, and set their sights on better ways of earning a living.

And why do your consider mine a strictly male opinion? I asked my wife about it and she says prostitution is indeed degrading to all women, not just the hookers. So it's an opinion shared by many, many women I suspect, maybe even the majority of women. You might just be in the minority on this issue.

Ask your wife if she would have had sex with a parapalegic, cerebral palsy, stutterer speach impediment guy when she was 20. Now how is this poor dude supposed to get sex? You expect this already downtrodden guy who got the short stick around every corner to go on a 50 year mission to find the 1 girl who will touch his weener one time? Sex can be incredibly altruistic if you beat down a few primal obstacles.

I think its worth letting people sell their own body temporarily just to help the 1 out of 100 guys who actually needs to use it just to feel like a basic human. And a HUGE chunk of women LOVE SEX. You are binding them from far away without even ever looking at them.

 

[lurchadams]

Women with real choices never choose prostitution. It's an act of desperation, driven by low self-esteem. Only damaged women would degrade themselves like that. You can pretend it's men who objectify them, or that prostitution is a normal career choice, but you're just kidding yourself.
.

You have no idea what you're talking about. Many women who choose sex work as a career or even as a part-time career do so of their own free will and enjoy doing it. Many of these women have s.o.'s who know what they do and support it. Many have "real" jobs and just do the sex work as a hobby because they enjoy it, make extra $ to support themselves and their families and they are the ones in control so they feel empowered doing it. You really should read some of the books and blogs sex workers have written to better understand their motivation before imposing your preconceived stigma on people that choose to engage in it.

 

[lurchadams]

Ask your wife if she would have had sex with a parapalegic, cerebral palsy, stutterer speach impediment guy when she was 20. Now how is this poor dude supposed to get sex? You expect this already downtrodden guy who got the short stick around every corner to go on a 50 year mission to find the 1 girl who will touch his weener one time? Sex can be incredibly altruistic if you beat down a few primal obstacles.

I think its worth letting people sell their own body temporarily just to help the 1 out of 100 guys who actually needs to use it just to feel like a basic human. And a HUGE chunk of women LOVE SEX. You are binding them from far away without even ever looking at them.

There's a profession called "sexual surrogacy" where mostly women offer themselves as a sex partner to those (mostly men) who could not otherwise have a healthy sex life due to physical impediments such as the one you described. Some can't handle intimacy due to sexual abuse or trauma in their past. Surrogates help these people as well. There's a really good movie about it, starring Helen Hunt, called, "The Sessions".

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1866249/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1

It's very tastefully done, and kind of a tear-jerker.

 

[Felis Leo]

Sure all that is a possibility. Yet the sex workers provide a service that is much in demand from men and some women. People can be blackmailed and manipulated in any profession.

Oh, I understand that there is great demand for prostitution. That is why I believe prostitution laws should be aimed at the people who demand the sex, rather than the people who supply it. In the same way, by analogy, that I believe we should continue to prosecute and punish people who buy child pornography and purchase sex from children, rather than prosecuting and imprisoning the children who are made to perform sex acts.

Many sex workers are really smart, educated, and good at what they do. Many sex workers like what they do - they like sex with a variety of people, they like the income they derive from it because they like their independence. They choose who they see and when and what happens during their appointments. Not all sex workers are the miserable victims you're making them out to be.

And do you believe that those self-possessed independent sexually-liberated sex workers make up the majority of prostitutes in this country, lurchadams? You say you know a lady who works as a part-time escort and seems to be doing fine. Do you know of many sex workers who entered into the field when there were other viable economic options available to them, and who were not suffering from some form of emotional or psychological instability?

Dude, I'm not advocating people being forced into anything. What I'm advocating is an environment for people that choose of their own free will to be sex workers that keeps both them and their clients safe.

Well, I am of the opinion that such an environment is one in which consent.

When decriminalized, tax revenues derived from sex work can be used to sponsor educational and vocational programs for workers that want to get out of the biz, counseling services for those "vulnerable people" as you call them to get help if they need it.

Well, let me be clear: I am for decriminalization of prostitution in order to keep women out of prison, but I am not for the legalization of prostitution. The reason being is that I do not believe society should touch any portion of the income of those women. As far as I am concerned it is blood money, created by the demand of men who believe they are entitled to sex. I would never want prostitution specifically taxed any more than I would want child pornography legalized, regulated and taxed, even if the tax dollars would supposedly be used to benefit the victims of the child sex industry.

I have no objection to any program that keeps both sex workers and their clients safe.

Well I am glad we can reach a partial consensus. But where you and I differ is this: Prostitutes should certainly be kept safe. But the clients of prostitutes should not be kept safe. Men should never be made feel safely entitled to sex and renting women's bodies for their entertainment and pleasure. Women are not commodities for our pleasure. As I said to Peter King, if we all teach our sons that they are obligated to protect the vulnerable and they must cultivate their best qualities in order to earn the affections of women, rather than telling them it is okay to objectify and commodify the affections women, society will truly have progressed by leaps and bounds.

 

[Lursa]

That is where you and I differ, Lursa. I think tax dollars spent to protect vulnerable women in desperate straits from predatory men is money well spent. And as I said to lurchadams, I am willing to decriminalize the act of selling one's body so long as we criminalize and punish the act of buying women's bodies, as they did in Sweden, and which has helped reduce prostitution in Sweden. I think we must safeguard the vulnerable from the predator, and that predatory relationships magically become merely transactional and nothing more once so-called "consent" becomes involved.

And I dont appreciate the old-fashioned to downright misogynistic views that women are so easily victimized and need to be protected from themselves. That we cant make good decisions for our lives and/or cant learn from mistakes, succeed above all expectations, pay our consequences, etc like anyone else. We are not children.

From all your different terms (vulnerable, unable to consent!...that's an outrageously disrespectful one btw) you seem to view women like children.

 

[Lursa]

No, Lursa. But many of the better ones seem to be, certainly. :mrgreen:

Certainly?

No, not at all. Our morals and rights and other ethical conventions are common with many cultures and religions across the globe and didnt necessarily stem from religion at all.

 

[Lursa]

Sex between consenting adults is not a vice. It is men who believe they are entitled to buy the bodies of women who are the subjects and perpetuators of this vice, and it is the women (and some gay men) who are their victims. Again, I am seriously given to doubt that someone in such a desperate situation that they are forced to prostitute themselves is capable of giving consent.

Women are entitled to pay money for consensual services...as are men. Women can pay for sex too.

And the fact that you separate sex out from other services is your own hangup...not one shared by everyone.

You appear to be another one here that doesnt understand that some women find that power and control...or just the sex alone...as empowering. Being a good lover is a skill as well, something to take pride in.

The repressive attitudes in this thread are amazing.

And again....would be a choice.

 

[Lursa]

Here is the difference: Your employer, generally, is not preying on you. What separates prostitution from other professions is that it is the refuge of wicked men who believe that women (and some young gay/bisexual men) are, ultimately, the objects of their pleasure. That is what separates it from other professions.

Again, your imagination takes you to personal places...not ones that apply to everyone.

The woman can say no. That you imagine the man as a predator speaks volumes. Wicked you claim! Or the women as prey...this is a hangup of yours. And still insulting to women.

In your mind, the fact that it's sex makes a difference. That is YOUR opinion. I understand others share it, but many others do not.

 

[Lursa]

I think that is because you and I view the concept of freedom differently. Being a conservative and not a libertarian, I see freedom as a means to an end, and that end being the preservation of human life (which I see as infinitely precious because we only get one) and allowing us to pursue our greatest happiness through self-actualization so long as it does not lead to the harm of others. Something that the freedom to sell and buy bodily organs and the freedom to commit suicide and to help others commit suicide is a total abnegation of. But it appears you see freedom not as a means to an end, but an end in and of itself. That simply by giving people the freedom to do whatever the want irrespective of the virtue of the act...that this in and of itself is the greatest good. Freedom untethered to virtue is the freedom of an unmoored lifeboat at sea without oars. To me, freedom can only be truly enjoyed by those of good conscience. To all others, it is mere license to act as their pleasure dictates, no matter who it hurts.

Yes. Freedom is an end in and of itself. If one has freedom, then they are free to pursue that greater good.

You write "giving the people the freedom to" and that statement makes me nauseous.

The fact that the govt tries to...has traditionally done so...control human sexuality is a barbaric and Dark Ages perspective. It creates more stigma and problems than it helps...and now we have to dig our way out of centuries of that.

 

[Waddy]

Ask your wife if she would have had sex with a parapalegic, cerebral palsy, stutterer speach impediment guy when she was 20. Now how is this poor dude supposed to get sex? You expect this already downtrodden guy who got the short stick around every corner to go on a 50 year mission to find the 1 girl who will touch his weener one time? Sex can be incredibly altruistic if you beat down a few primal obstacles.

I think its worth letting people sell their own body temporarily just to help the 1 out of 100 guys who actually needs to use it just to feel like a basic human. And a HUGE chunk of women LOVE SEX. You are binding them from far away without even ever looking at them.

I have no problem with a woman offering pity sex to such a person as you describe. But it should be given freely, in every sense of that word.

 

[OldFatGuy]

I am in favor of men and women being able to prostitute their bodies for sexual pleasure.

The issues are obvious:

A source of income;
religious morality;
other people's morality;
hypocrisy;
std health issues;
human trafficking;
Under age involvement;
consent;
is it or not a victimless crime?

Obviously it is a source of income, but for whom?

There will always be religious moral objection, protection of the family by extension, as a family unit sacred to God. Yet all too often we read or hear in the media of religious leaders being caught using the services of a prostitute, or taking advantage of the weaknesses or moments of weakness from those who come to them for assistance. Religious leaders who use their status as such to sexually prey upon others, for whatever reasons.

My morality is not your morality and vice versa.

Std controls are and can be improved with rigidly enforced health standards.

Licensing of some sort may decrease illicit contacts, yet is no guarantee, some licensed European nation have found intermediate controls by organized crime groups have either grown or become more apparent.

We don't really understand how pedophilia plays into a legal system where it may have been undercounted previously?

As we examine history, courtesans have become as powerful as Kings or Queens, some celebrated biblically for their skills for the benefit of their respective people (Esther from the Bible).

 

[Felis Leo]

And I dont appreciate the old-fashioned to downright misogynistic views that women are so easily victimized and need to be protected from themselves. That we cant make good decisions for our lives and/or cant learn from mistakes, succeed above all expectations, pay our consequences, etc like anyone else. We are not children.

I do not view women as helpless children, Lursa. But I seriously question whether people in desperate circumstances are able to give their consent. They are able to give their assent, perhaps, because you can get anyone to say "yes" to practically anything given the right pressures, like saying "yes" to selling one's own children into slavery. But assent is not the same as consent. In the same way I view people with psychological dysfunctions (like clinical depression) unable to make fully rational decisions.

From all your different terms (vulnerable, unable to consent!...that's an outrageously disrespectful one btw) you seem to view women like children.

Before we continue, Lursa, I want to ask you something, and please tell me if I am going to far: Under what circumstances would you consider prostituting your body? Or, if you feel more comfortable answering this: under what circumstances would you recommend another person who you loved and cared about deeply that they should start performing prostitution as a viable means of earning income? And the reason I ask is this: If the first thing that popped into your head was something along the lines of "things would have to be pretty bad before I considered doing that," and "I would never think to suggest that any woman in my life should prostitute herself" (perhaps after thinking "F*ck you, Felis Leo") then perhaps you would understand that most women do not have the incredible privilege of choosing prostitution over other available economic options. Many feel forced into it by their time, place and circumstances. I think for me to ignore that would be misogynistic.

 

[joko104]

I am in favor of men and women being able to prostitute their bodies for sexual pleasure.

The issues are obvious:

A source of income;
religious morality;
other people's morality;
hypocrisy;
std health issues;
human trafficking;
Under age involvement;
consent;
is it or not a victimless crime?

Obviously it is a source of income, but for whom?

There will always be religious moral objection, protection of the family by extension, as a family unit sacred to God. Yet all too often we read or hear in the media of religious leaders being caught using the services of a prostitute, or taking advantage of the weaknesses or moments of weakness from those who come to them for assistance. Religious leaders who use their status as such to sexually prey upon others, for whatever reasons.

My morality is not your morality and vice versa.

Std controls are and can be improved with rigidly enforced health standards.

Licensing of some sort may decrease illicit contacts, yet is no guarantee, some licensed European nation have found intermediate controls by organized crime groups have either grown or become more apparent.

We don't really understand how pedophilia plays into a legal system where it may have been undercounted previously?

As we examine history, courtesans have become as powerful as Kings or Queens, some celebrated biblically for their skills for the benefit of their respective people (Esther from the Bible).

Again, then you favor eliminating all federal, state and local laws prohibiting dangerous employment because anyone can "prostitute their body?" Or do you only favor allowing dangerous employment to prostitute their body for sex?

 

[Lursa]

I do not view women as helpless children, Lursa. But I seriously question whether people in desperate circumstances are able to give their consent. They are able to give their assent, perhaps, because you can get anyone to say "yes" to practically anything given the right pressures, like saying "yes" to selling one's own children into slavery. But assent is not the same as consent. In the same way I view people with psychological dysfunctions (like clinical depression) unable to make fully rational decisions.



Before we continue, Lursa, I want to ask you something, and please tell me if I am going to far: Under what circumstances would you consider prostituting your body? Or, if you feel more comfortable answering this: under what circumstances would you recommend another person who you loved and cared about deeply that they should start performing prostitution as a viable means of earning income? And the reason I ask is this: If the first thing that popped into your head was something along the lines of "things would have to be pretty bad before I considered doing that," and "I would never think to suggest that any woman in my life should prostitute herself" (perhaps after thinking "F*ck you, Felis Leo") then perhaps you would understand that most women do not have the incredible privilege of choosing prostitution over other available economic options. Many feel forced into it by their time, place and circumstances. I think for me to ignore that would be misogynistic.

The fact that you still think that having sex for money would be so hideous for all women is a great case in point.

But yes, the way you keep describing women is like we're children.

And my personal views on sex have nothing to do with this...I dont accept your personal view as the only one on this subject, nor should mine be.

It's enough that we KNOW that there are men and women that do choose that profession and do not feel in any way that you describe. They can enjoy it, find it satisfying (the same way that a sex surrogate can), empowering, etc.

 

[Todzilla]

Prostitution (along with gambling and drugs) are where the Libertarians and I do a group hug.

 

[OldFatGuy]

Again, then you favor eliminating all federal, state and local laws prohibiting dangerous employment because anyone can "prostitute their body?" Or do you only favor allowing dangerous employment to prostitute their body for sex?

Show me where I said I "favor eliminating all federal, state and local laws?"

When people don't say what you want them to say for the purpose of your silly arguments, there is no right for you to fabricate what they say.

 

[TDGonDP]

It's wrong because reasons.



Switching to serious mode, it is my opinion that prostitution should be fully legal and regulated.

Put the pimps out of business by making legal prostitution a better option.

They have made prostitution somewhat legal in Holland. But the "managers" still take nearly all the proceeds; they are now legal. The girls get very little and are easily cast aside when no longer useful. And there is still that pyschological bond that keeps them tied to their manager. The girls may be sold to another manager, but they just can't quit.

Prostitution--even in a legal framework--is psychological slavery.

 

[What if...?]

Oh, I understand that there is great demand for prostitution. That is why I believe prostitution laws should be aimed at the people who demand the sex, rather than the people who supply it. In the same way, by analogy, that I believe we should continue to prosecute and punish people who buy child pornography and purchase sex from children, rather than prosecuting and imprisoning the children who are made to perform sex acts.



And do you believe that those self-possessed independent sexually-liberated sex workers make up the majority of prostitutes in this country, lurchadams? You say you know a lady who works as a part-time escort and seems to be doing fine. Do you know of many sex workers who entered into the field when there were other viable economic options available to them, and who were not suffering from some form of emotional or psychological instability?



Well, I am of the opinion that such an environment is one in which consent.



Well, let me be clear: I am for decriminalization of prostitution in order to keep women out of prison, but I am not for the legalization of prostitution. The reason being is that I do not believe society should touch any portion of the income of those women. As far as I am concerned it is blood money, created by the demand of men who believe they are entitled to sex. I would never want prostitution specifically taxed any more than I would want child pornography legalized, regulated and taxed, even if the tax dollars would supposedly be used to benefit the victims of the child sex industry.



Well I am glad we can reach a partial consensus. But where you and I differ is this: Prostitutes should certainly be kept safe. But the clients of prostitutes should not be kept safe. Men should never be made feel safely entitled to sex and renting women's bodies for their entertainment and pleasure. Women are not commodities for our pleasure. As I said to Peter King, if we all teach our sons that they are obligated to protect the vulnerable and they must cultivate their best qualities in order to earn the affections of women, rather than telling them it is okay to objectify and commodify the affections women, society will truly have progressed by leaps and bounds.

You do realize that there are male prostitutes whose clients are female, right?

So those women feel "entitled" to sex?

Are the men "victims"?

I laud you concern for your fellow man. I just think you're over simplifying.

I don't like blanket bans to deal with problems.

Especially those that deal with "morals". Because not everybody agrees what is moral.

I don't consider it "moral" to force people to pay other people just to lay their heads at night, for instance.

But this attitude is heresy to many.

 

[joko104]

Every year this same topic is recycles and those wanting women to go into the profession of selling sex use the same absurd slogans they just then repeat over an over.

For example, NOTHING is more absurd logic than claims legalizing prostitution prevents women from being forced into prostitution - when in fact it is illegal now to force women into prostitution because prostitution is illegal. Legalizing prostitute makes it legal to force women into prostitution provided it can not be proven illegal methods that can be proven were used in that pressure.

The same exactly-opposite-for-truth logic is used claiming legalizing prostitution stops pimping, when in fact legalizing prostitution inherently legalizes pimping.

This is all about trying to force poor women into prostitution, while claiming this it to oppose religious people who claim the sex and women are more than just business and that women are more than just sexual pieces of meat.