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pro-life[W:1119]

I'm very familiar with the analogies about Jewish people and African Americans, and they are mistaken. The two groups in question were considered inferior humans, but still human. Apples and oranges.



But these aren't scientific or factual questions; they very much ARE the result of our opinions.

Isn't what is or is not human a scientific fact, not an opinion. To me all beings classified as homo sapiens are human. This would include a fetus. Fact, not opinion. For instance, there are different types of fetuses. There are canine fetuses feline fetuses dolphin fetuses and of course human fetuses. So it is indeed a fact that fetuses that live inside women are biologically human. Right?
 
Do you have any insight into ANY "unintended consequences" of granting the yet to be born "personhood rights"?


Well, I could see a problem in that abortion could never be allowed in any circumstance. For instance, if someone had a tubal pregnancy or heart problem that could lead to heart failure.
They wouldn't be allowed to get an abortion to save their life. Because if you treat both the fetus and the woman as completely equal you can't kill someone just to save your life. Of course, laws can be adjusted to make accommodations for such things while still restricting abortion in some cases. Also, this goes for everyone please try to keep it to one response. It is hard to have a conversation when there are so many things to respond to all at once.
 
Isn't what is or is not human a scientific fact, not an opinion. To me all beings classified as homo sapiens are human. This would include a fetus. Fact, not opinion. For instance, there are different types of fetuses. There are canine fetuses feline fetuses dolphin fetuses and of course human fetuses. So it is indeed a fact that fetuses that live inside women are biologically human. Right?

Being human does not give an unborn any rights.
It is inside and attached to the woman.
The woman can make medical decisions about her body.

Therefore the biomom has a choice whether or not to continue her pregnancy before viability.
At viabilty the state can take a compelling interest in the human life and proscribe ( ban ) an abortion except when the woman’s life or irreparable damage to a major bodiliy function ( stroke ,heart attack , paralysis from the neck down, kidney , liver damage, etc ) would occur if the pregnancy continued.
 
Isn't what is or is not human a scientific fact, not an opinion. To me all beings classified as homo sapiens are human. This would include a fetus. Fact, not opinion. For instance, there are different types of fetuses. There are canine fetuses feline fetuses dolphin fetuses and of course human fetuses. So it is indeed a fact that fetuses that live inside women are biologically human. Right?

Well, way to go. You have sufficiently demonstrated that human DNA is human DNA.

What you have not done, is demonstrate why we should think of an unthinking mass of human tissue a person, or grant it rights.

In my opinion, your person-hood starts the moment that you can think, the moment that you're more self-aware than a houseplant, or a coffee table. You may technically be able to call it 'human', but no person is actually there yet.
 
Isn't what is or is not human a scientific fact, not an opinion. To me all beings classified as homo sapiens are human. This would include a fetus. Fact, not opinion. For instance, there are different types of fetuses. There are canine fetuses feline fetuses dolphin fetuses and of course human fetuses. So it is indeed a fact that fetuses that live inside women are biologically human. Right?

I don't think anyone disagrees that what we're talking about is human (as opposed to dog, cat, or chimpanzee, etc.) but it's a human FETUS or EMBRYO, not a human "being" or "person" with any sort of legal or official status.
 
I don't think anyone disagrees that what we're talking about is human (as opposed to dog, cat, or chimpanzee, etc.) but it's a human FETUS or EMBRYO, not a human "being" or "person" with any sort of legal or official status.


I see your point to a certain extent. Defining what is a human being or a human person is subjective. Human being less so than person. But for the sake of argument, I'll concede your point. However since as you said a human fetus is human. Doesn't that mean we have to scientifically qualify it as a Homo Sapien?
 
Well, I could see a problem in that abortion could never be allowed in any circumstance. For instance, if someone had a tubal pregnancy or heart problem that could lead to heart failure.
They wouldn't be allowed to get an abortion to save their life. Because if you treat both the fetus and the woman as completely equal you can't kill someone just to save your life. Of course, laws can be adjusted to make accommodations for such things while still restricting abortion in some cases. Also, this goes for everyone please try to keep it to one response. It is hard to have a conversation when there are so many things to respond to all at once.

The following is just few unintended consequences:

Personhood measures would provoke many years of legal battles in legislatures and courts, ensnaring women and their partners and doctors in expensive, time-consuming, and potentially liberty-infringing civil or criminal proceedings.

Personhood would outlaw abortion, even in cases of rape, incest, terminally deformed fetuses, and danger to the woman's health. It would prohibit doctors from performing abortions and perhaps even if the life of the woman is in jeopardy. These restrictions endanger the lives and health of many women.

By granting the embryo equal protection of the laws, the state would be forced to deny the same to the woman.

Personhood laws would allow the government to infringe upon one of citizens’ most fundamental rights, the right to privacy free from governmental intrusion.

By the new definition, a miscarriage is essentially an unexplained death of a “person”. Must the state then issue a death certificate, investigate every pregnancy loss, and consider the womb a crime scene or require a coroner’s report?

The word “person” appears over tens of thousands of times in Federal, State, and local the laws. All stages of development from conception to birth will be apply to all said laws.

The use of certain contraceptives will be outlawed. Birth control pills, intrauterine devices (IUD’s), and the morning after pill work by preventing fertilization from occurring but, theoretically, may occasionally prevent a fertilized egg from implanting. Because personhood groups believe that every stage of development is legally a person from the moment of fertilization, these methods of birth control would not be allowed.

Personhood proposals allow for much greater government interference in very personal healthcare decisions for women and their families. If fully enforced, they would lead to severe legal penalties for intentionally harming a zygote, embryo, or fetus, even in the event of life-threatening pregnancy complications. It would outlaw all elective abortions, forcing pregnant women to give birth against their own judgment, and it would encourage dangerous illegal abortions.

Pregnant women will become a separate class, less protected by law than men or non-pregnant women. Government officials might be obliged, pressured, or inspired to investigate or prosecute any miscarriage deemed suspicious. A woman suspected of causing a miscarriage could be subject to criminal prosecution, as could others suspected of helping her.

The Constitution instructs us to carry out a census every 10 years. Must we then count all millions of embryo “persons” in frozen storage in IVF labs throughout the U.S.? Granting personhood to an embryo could potentially result in questioning census results.


Since both Federal and State Tax Codes will be affected. If you have a woman who might experience two, three, four miscarriages in a year, can she claim those unborn people on her taxes?

Organizations who are storage facilities for embryos - have had system failures resulting in the loss of tens of thousands of embryos (aka “persons”). Will these loses be considered an act of negligent homicide - and those in charge sentenced as murderous felons?

Okay, I’m getting finger fatigue. I’ll post more later. There’s probably another dozen or so more relevant issues involved.
 
I see your point to a certain extent. Defining what is a human being or a human person is subjective. Human being less so than person. But for the sake of argument, I'll concede your point. However since as you said a human fetus is human. Doesn't that mean we have to scientifically qualify it as a Homo Sapien?

I have no idea, and furthermore don't see what relevance that has to the subject of whether abortion should be a legal option.
 
I see your point to a certain extent. Defining what is a human being or a human person is subjective. Human being less so than person. But for the sake of argument, I'll concede your point. However since as you said a human fetus is human. Doesn't that mean we have to scientifically qualify it as a Homo Sapien?

Did you not take biology in high schools? There are definitions for species and one of them is having a common DNA.

Homo sapiens have human DNA...even in the womb.
 
Re: pro-life

Another one without a uterus wanting to dictate to those of us with one what we can or cannot do with the contents of ours. Of course the zef is human life but no human life has a right to live inside of and attached to a person against that person's will. Pregnancy is not a benign condition. It has a huge impact on a woman's body. No woman should be forced to gestate and give birth.

We have consequences to our actions. We all have to own up to our consequences. You think the woman magically got pregnant? I'll go further. Don't want a baby? Don't have sex.
 
Re: pro-life

We have consequences to our actions. We all have to own up to our consequences. You think the woman magically got pregnant? I'll go further. Don't want a baby? Don't have sex.

So you think a woman should be punished if her birth control fails?

About 68 percent of US women of child bearing years use artifical birth control consistently and correctly.

They do not chose to become pregnant yet 5 percent of those women will become pregnant in a years time since no artifical birth control is fail proof
 
Re: pro-life

We have consequences to our actions. We all have to own up to our consequences. You think the woman magically got pregnant? I'll go further. Don't want a baby? Don't have sex.

Abortion IS a consequence.

I have a better idea. How be people worry about their own lives and stay out of the private medical decisions of others?
 
Re: pro-life

We have consequences to our actions. We all have to own up to our consequences. You think the woman magically got pregnant? I'll go further. Don't want a baby? Don't have sex.

So a baby is punishment for a woman? Yeah, that's real concern for kids.

Why shouldnt women enjoy sex? It's great, and since 68% use birth control, yet birth control is not 100% effective, and millions of people have sex every single day...you do the math.

Women now have a legal, safer option if they dont want to remain pregnant. No need for them to not enjoy sex.
 
Re: pro-life

So you think a woman should be punished if her birth control fails?

About 68 percent of US women of child bearing years use artifical birth control consistently and correctly.

They do not chose to become pregnant yet 5 percent of those women will become pregnant in a years time since no artifical birth control is fail proof

LMAO, I wrote almost exactly the same thing!

"Great minds...."
 
I have no idea, and furthermore don't see what relevance that has to the subject of whether abortion should be a legal option.



Well, it seems to me that you understand that a fetus is a human organism correct?
 
Well, it seems to me that you understand that a fetus is a human organism correct?

Correct, as opposed to an animal or vegetable organism. But not all organisms are persons that enjoy the rights and privileges normally accorded only to persons.
 
Observe how easy it is to get bogged down in mere terminology.

Is it a person, a human being....... or a collection of cells? Some people believe that a zygote-- a newly fertilized ovum--is the equivalent of a three-month old baby. Others see it as merely a small blob of protoplasm with the genetic potential of becoming a baby.

Some religious traditions consider a fertilized egg a human being from the moment of conception. Others think abortion is morally acceptable up until the moment of "quickening".

All the more reason to leave it up to the individual woman to make the decision, in accordance with her own conscience, her own morality and her own faith.
 
Correct, as opposed to an animal or vegetable organism. But not all organisms are persons that enjoy the rights and privileges normally accorded only to persons.


All organisms can be classified by a genus and species as well. Which would make a fetus a Homo Sapien correct?
 
Correct, to the extent that 'homo sapiens' is another way of saying 'human'.


Okay. I'm not saying you have to agree. But can't you see why some people would not be comfortable saying it should be legal to kill homo sapiens based on their location.
 
Okay. I'm not saying you have to agree. But can't you see why some people would not be comfortable saying it should be legal to kill homo sapiens based on their location.

We known an unborn is human and a homo sapien.
We also know an unborn is nside and attached to the born human and dependent on the woman’s bodiliy functions to grow the unborn.

The pregnant woman can make her choice regarding continuing the pregnancy or not up to viabilty in the U.S.
 
Okay. I'm not saying you have to agree. But can't you see why some people would not be comfortable saying it should be legal to kill homo sapiens based on their location.

Of course I can. Can YOU see why other people would disagree? Most important, can you see that the obvious solution, acknowledging this widespread disagreement, is to let the individual make her own choice in the matter?
 
Okay. I'm not saying you have to agree. But can't you see why some people would not be comfortable saying it should be legal to kill homo sapiens based on their location.

It's not about location, it's about status and the law.

The unborn are not 'equal' to people. SCOTUS has made that determination. And there are biological foundations for that decision besides the ethical and legal ones.


How comfortable would most people be with the government forcing women, by law, to remain pregnant against their will?

Nowhere does it say that it is 'murder' to kill Homo sapiens (humans). Unless you can find such a place and show us. It is murder to kill Homo sapiens under certain circumstances and all such circumstances are legally defined. There are other legal reasons to kill Homo sapiens.
 
Of course I can. Can YOU see why other people would disagree? Most important, can you see that the obvious solution, acknowledging this widespread disagreement, is to let the individual make her own choice in the matter?

Of course I can see why people would disagree with me. I would say since there is so much disagreement the voters should be empowered to have a say.
 
Of course I can see why people would disagree with me. I would say since there is so much disagreement the voters should be empowered to have a say.

Can you explain why you believe that the voters have the right to decide to violate women's Constitutional rights? Well, things are purposely structured so that 'the tyranny of the majority may not" do so, and the majority may not vote away the rights of the minority. Hence we were able to end segregation and Jim Crow laws in the South (for example).

So no, the voters cant decide to vote for the government to force women to remain pregnant against their will but I would certainly like to read your legal justification for that. What legal reasons would you be basing that on?
 
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