Pro-life or anti-choice?

[Peter King]

it is illegal to kill yes i know Peter

Actually abortion is not "killing" nor is it illegal.

 

[Peter King]

it was proof

Of the opposite of what you claimed, nice try, big fail though.

 

[TypicalRussian]

Of the opposite of what you claimed, nice try, big fail though.

nope.

 

[TypicalRussian]

OK!

Yes....

OK!

no...

 

[TypicalRussian]

Except it is not, I am a human being, we have working high brain functions and when those are gone we are brain dead. A group of cells with no lungs, no working brain and no ability to exist even with medical help is not a human being.

actually it is

 

[OceanBlues1]

:raises eyebrow: we don't punish women for getting abortions (nor is there a legal structure to even do so). We provide thousands of pregnancy centers to help young women in tough situations (my wife, for example, leaned heavily on one when, as a 20 year old, she became pregnant before we were married), and we provide grief counseling afterwards if they choose to kill the child.

"Pregnancy centers," as in those phony "crisis pregnancy centers" that, more often than not, use lies and other manipulative tactics to trick girls and vulnerable young women out of having an abortion and into having a baby they never wanted in the first place? Yeah, that's really what I call "help." :roll:

 

[OceanBlues1]

As the movement ages it becomes more and more apparent that the real agenda is to deny women the right to make private decisions about their personal life, not giving every fetus a right to life.

Exactly. Which basically boils down to controlling women's sexual and reproductive decisions. Of course I don't expect prolife guys to admit to that agenda publicly anytime soon.

 

[Peter King]

nope.

Except it was, it was about women not falling for the "bad boy muscular type".

 

[Peter King]

OK!

no...

Except, Yes.

 

[Peter King]

actually it is

It has human DNA, my skin has human DNA, but it hardly is a human being. A human being is a complex organism with qualities that a zygote does not have.

 

[TypicalRussian]

It has human DNA, my skin has human DNA, but it hardly is a human being. A human being is a complex organism with qualities that a zygote does not have.

it is a human!!

 

[TypicalRussian]

Except, Yes.

except,NO!

 

[TypicalRussian]

Except it was, it was about women not falling for the "bad boy muscular type".

later in life when they should have been not looking for it at all

thx stupid culture

 

[weaver2]

Retreating to the law? Yes, the law currently does not agree with our position. That is what we are trying to change .

And your position comes from the religious right whether you are a believer or not banning abortion is the goal of conservative Christians which is exactly what pro-choice is trying to prevent: interference in women's private decisions by religious organizations and their spin-offs.

However, pointing out that one side currently has their preference enshrined in legal power doesn't change (or, really, even address) the basic point that if one starts from the argument (as the pro life movement does) that an unborn child is a human child, then this your claim is incorrect - it is something you do to your child. That is why the question of whether or not an unborn child is, indeed, a human child, is sort of what the whole thing hinges on. If it isn't, then your description is correct. If it is, however, a human being, then what we are doing is infanticide.

This is not a question of preference. This is Constitutional law. Conservative Christians have a Constitutional right to believe what they want. They do not have a right to lobby the government into making their religious dogma into law.

:raises eyebrow: we don't punish women for getting abortions (nor is there a legal structure to even do so). We provide thousands of pregnancy centers to help young women in tough situations (my wife, for example, leaned heavily on one when, as a 20 year old, she became pregnant before we were married), and we provide grief counseling afterwards if they choose to kill the child.

The religious right doesn't punish their own women when they get abortions. They most certainly punish pro-choice women. They are publicly shamed, called names, addressed as immoral and told they are killers, atheists, sluts and worse. The religious right is actively working on the legal structure to ban abortion and pass laws punishing women and providers. I'm guessing you think Kavanaugh was appointed for his integrity and brilliant legal mind not because he is a conservative toady.

Yeah.... no. This is... bizarre.

I agree, pretending that anti-abortion women aren't getting abortions at exactly the same rate and for exactly the same reason as pro-choice is pretty bizarre, alright!!!!!

Recommended reading for you on how we tend to view each other's opinion of us.

Why are you recommending this article to me. It shows quite definitely that conservatives are more apt to dehumanization, dislike, and disagree than Democrats. Try getting your own conservatives to change first before you start accusing liberals of being the ones creating the divisive environment.

Nope. The pro-life movement is based around ending abortion as a means of birth control. There is some internal division on where, precisely, those borders should be drawn, but that is the unifying underlying principle.

And you think the pro-life movement gets to define morality, decide on "borders", and make the decisions about abortion. Take your arrogance down a peg. Nobody gave you the sole right to decide how women handle reproduction. Start listening to what others have been saying about contraception, life, children, families, poverty, pregnancy, children's futures when unwanted and stop calling pro-choice women killers, murderers, sluts, leg spreaders as your main argument against women and legal abortion.


[/QUOTE]that is also false.[/QUOTE]. Oh Really? You're not focused on overturning Roe. So tell us about all the other legislation you are proposing to end legal abortion. And don't tell us again how concerned conservative Christian males are about protecting women against abortion. We are tired of your patronizing protection, paternalism and punitive religious beliefs.

 

[cpwill]

Your belief that the anti-abortion movement is internally consistent and members don't lie they just have different opinions doesn't hold up under examination

You are misrepresenting my argument. Some Pro-Life folks do indeed lie, just as Pro-Choice folks do. That, however, doesn't mean that 51% of American women are all involved in a massive conspiracy to lie about their true desire to be controlled by men, any more than the fact that pro choicers sometimes will lie means that the Pro Choice movement must all be lying when they claim not to believe that an unborn child is indeed an independent human child with human rights.

The official position of the pro-life movement is that abortion is wrong at any stage of pregnancy

That is incorrect - there is variation within the pro-life movement about under what circumstances killing a child is justified.



You appear to be suffering from a - very - common malady, wherein we define those who disagree with us by overemphasizing bad or extreme outliers and attempting to define the entire Out Group by those outliers.

The Beyond Conflict people have put out an interesting study:

Our research has found a consistent pattern. There is a wide divide between perception and reality across key measures of the Beyond Conflict Polarization Index™. Americans incorrectly believe that members of the other party dehumanize, dislike, and disagree with them about twice as much as they actually do. In short, we believe we’re more polarized than we really are—and that misperception can drive us even further apart. The divide is correlated with outcomes that are consequential for democracy and represent a new degree of toxic polarization in America....​

If you are actually interested in understanding people who aren't like you, let me know. Sadly, I doubt it - ignorance helps fuel pride, moral certainty, and bigotry, all of which are self-reinforcing, so most folks prefer to hold on to it, but :shrug:

and women who get abortions are either mistaken, immoral, sluts, killers, or murderers. But anti-abortion women when faced with an unwanted pregnancy that will damage their family or themselves get abortions at exactly the same rate as pro-life women. What's really interesting about this inconsistency is that the pro-life movement will absolutely not acknowledge this is happening, they have no intent or plan to punish these women as they say pro-choice women should be punished. This is not internal consistency and it is essentially living with a lie.

The official pro-life position that every fetus deserves a life isn't supported once the fetus is born and facing life. Pro-life members almost 100% of the time deny, with their vote programs essential to the lives of those children they insisted deserved a life. Another internal inconsistency.

Nor is it internally consistent to state that your goal is reducing abortions and then fight every program that provides easy access to cheap women's contraceptives or fighting to ban some very effective contraceptives by labeling them abortifacients when responsible research has clearly stated they are not abortifacients. I suppose one could call it internal consistency when a movement agrees to lie about something as pro-life has about abortifacients and everybody buys into the same lie. That's dishonest but it is consistent.

Pro-life leaders used to say that women's health and welfare were at the center of the anti-abortion movement until it became overwhelmingly obvious that the name calling, lies about permanent depression, breast cancer, guilt, denial of essential therapeutic abortions, were anything but supportive of women.

As the movement ages it becomes more and more apparent that the real agenda is to deny women the right to make private decisions about their personal life not giving every fetus a right to life.

:yawn: if I can demonstrate some pro choicers doing things that I think are internally inconsistent or even lying, does that mean that pro-choicers actually do believe that they are killing babies, and just want to kill babies?


Or, perchance, is that logic really ****ing stupid

 

[cpwill]

And your position comes from the religious right whether you are a believer or not banning abortion is the goal of conservative Christians which is exactly what pro-choice is trying to prevent: interference in women's private decisions by religious organizations and their spin-offs.

Fascinating. So even if someone is not a Christian, if they are pro-life, then their opinions must come to them because they are secretly being controlled by the Christian right.

Does this mean that the Chinese Communist Government being pro-abortion means that you, as a pro-choice person, are being controlled by the Chinese government?


Or - and, this is sort of crazy, but, bear with me for a minute - is it possible for people to independently come to differing positions than yourself in good faith?

This is not a question of preference. This is Constitutional law. Conservative Christians have a Constitutional right to believe what they want. They do not have a right to lobby the government into making their religious dogma into law.

That is false - in fact the First Amendment establishes precisely such a system for petition and redress. The Government is forbidden from establishing a Church - it is not required to force it's citizenry to abandon their beliefs whenever they go into a voting booth or sign a petition.

The religious right is actively working on the legal structure to ban abortion and pass laws punishing women and providers.

I thought you claimed that all they were doing was focusing on overturning Roe?

Does your lack of internal consistency here mean that - according to your own standard - you do, in fact, believe that abortion kills a baby, and you just like murdering babies?

I'm guessing you think Kavanaugh was appointed for his integrity and brilliant legal mind not because he is a conservative toady.

I think he was nominated because the Federalist Society put him forward and Trump has generally outsourced the selection of judges to that group.

]The Constitution has guaranteed you the right to to make private decisions about your personal religious and reproductive life. But you and fellow conservatives are not focused on the women in your own group. Your focus is entirely on women outside your belief system and it's their behavior not your own women's behavior you are trying to control. Ironically there is no punishment for anti-abortion women that get abortions and they do get them, at exactly the same rate as other women. The punishment is focused entirely on pro-choice women.

Yeah.... no. This is... bizarre.

I agree, pretending that anti-abortion women aren't getting abortions at exactly the same rate and for exactly the same reason as pro-choice is pretty bizarre, alright!!!!!

Except, of course, that what was bizzaire was not your (highly questionable and unsourced) claim that pro-life women got abortions at exactly the same rate as pro-choice women, but rather the neurotic claim that pro-lifers are somehow going around "punishing" pro-choice women who have abortions, but not pro-life women.

Why are you recommending this article to me.

I was hoping - obviously in vain - it would lead to some self reflection.

It shows quite definitely that conservatives are more apt to dehumanization, dislike, and disagree than Democrats.

It shows that both parties are apt to dehumanize and dislike the other, but - and this was sort of the point of the whole thing, which, it is not surprising you missed or ignored - both parties are even more apt to overestimate the degree to which the other party dehumanizes and dislikes them, just as they also tend to believe that the other side is overwhelmingly made up of extreme or bad outliers.

Much of "journalism" has become rage-clicking; FOX reliably runs sections that are "Can You Believe This Insane And Awful Thing This Liberal Did", just as MSNBC and left-leaning outlets reliably run sections that are "Can You Believe This Insane And Awful Thing This Conservative Did". Both audiences increasingly seem to have come to the conclusion, therefore, that people who disagree with them are insane and awful :-/

Witness: your posts in this thread.

Try getting your own conservatives to change first before you start accusing liberals of being the ones creating the divisive environment.

:snorts: feel free to check through my post history - you'll find that I'm fine criticizing conservatives when they make stupid arguments that do things like project false motivations onto those who disagree with them. But - and, I have to tell this to the Trump fans almost as much as the Trump detractors - just because someone else did something wrong, doesn't mean you aren't wrong to do that thing as well.

 

[cpwill]

And you think the pro-life movement gets to define morality, decide on "borders", and make the decisions about abortion.

No - I said that within the Pro-Life movement there was internal discussion on where those borders should be drawn, but that the unifying principle was based around ending abortion as a means of birth control.

Take your arrogance down a peg.

:lol: says a poster so arrogant as to think they can tell half of America what they really believe, even when they insist you are incorrect.

Nobody gave you the sole right to decide how women handle reproduction.

This is a poor attempt to shift the argument - every political advocacy movement has nuance and debate within it, but seeks to influence policy. It is no more arrogance or the claim to "sole right to decide about reproduction" for the Pro-Life movement to advocate for the Pro-Life cause than it is arrogance and the claim to the "sole right to decide about guns" for people to advocate for a national registry and to restrict (or expand) gun ownership regulation. It's not arrogance or the claim to "sole right to decide what happens in our world" for people to advocate for environmental protections, nor is it arrogance and the claim to "sole right to decide how our children are educated" to advocate for school reform.

Saying "We Should Do X" is not the same as saying "I Should Have The Sole Right To Force Us To Do X".

Start listening to what others have been saying about contraception, life, children, families, poverty, pregnancy, children's futures when unwanted and stop calling pro-choice women killers, murderers, sluts, leg spreaders as your main argument against women and legal abortion.

You appear to have no idea whatsoever what my main argument against abortion is, and appear to equally have an no interest in learning.

You can claim that the reason you are doing this is to save children's lives by stopping abortions but your focus is on Roe only

that is also false.

[/quote. Oh Really? You're not focused on overturning Roe.

So now you are (deceptively) shifting from the accusation that we care about ONLY Roe to pretending that we were discussing whether or not we focused on Roe


Applying your own logic, I suppose, that would mean your repeated misrepresentation of other's arguments (lies, if you will) mean that you actually do think that you are killing babies, and that all pro lifers can therefore be said to be pro-murdering-children. Interesting.

So tell us about all the other legislation you are proposing to end legal abortion.

:shrug: there is a wide bench of items we've tried, from heartbeat, to fetal pain, to requiring abortion providers to provide information to the mothers (such as real-life images of their child in the womb), etc. so on and so forth. We also pour resources into pregnancy centers and outreach programs designed to support young women who find themselves in hard situations who might otherwise feel they had few options.

And don't tell us again how concerned conservative Christian males are about protecting women against abortion.

They generally are and they do. My wife, for example, was a young, unmarried woman, who, at age 20, found herself pregnant. One of those pregnancy centers (run, staffed, and funded by Christian men and women) was invaluable to her; providing resources, information, and help when she needed it.

We are tired of your patronizing

That's ironic, coming from someone so arrogant as to declare that he knows what other's really think, even when they insist that he is incorrect.

 

[cpwill]

"Pregnancy centers," as in those phony "crisis pregnancy centers" that, more often than not, use lies and other manipulative tactics to trick girls and vulnerable young women out of having an abortion and into having a baby they never wanted in the first place? Yeah, that's really what I call "help." :roll:

Evidently you don't know much about them, and aren't interested in learning. Little surprise there .

My wife was helped immeasurably by just such a center when she found herself pregnant as an unmarried college sophomore. We've donated to, supported, helped at, and worked with the people who support several such centers since - giving back in the way in which we were blessed.

Why do you think planned parenthood and their allies in the Pro-"Choice" spend so much money and effort trying to shut down those who will help young women choose something other than abortion? It's not because those places don't provide support (in such a case, the young woman would walk down the street to the PP clinic); it's because they do.

 

[cpwill]

Incorrect. It has been pointed out many times that pro lifers will use misinformation to get their point across. That is quite different from simply believing a pro lifer believes in what they think. This is not pointing out a difference in belief. This is pointing out that the means used to sustain that belief is dishonest.

I can find you plenty of examples of Pro-Choicers using misinformation to make their points. Turning your own logic around at you; does that mean that you and all other pro-choicers actually believe that you are killing babies and just want to kill babies?

 

[Irredentist]

Evidently you don't know much about them, and aren't interested in learning. Little surprise there .

My wife was helped immeasurably by just such a center when she found herself pregnant as an unmarried college sophomore. We've donated to, supported, helped at, and worked with the people who support several such centers since - giving back in the way in which we were blessed.

Why do you think planned parenthood and their allies in the Pro-"Choice" spend so much money and effort trying to shut down those who will help young women choose something other than abortion? It's not because those places don't provide support (in such a case, the young woman would walk down the street to the PP clinic); it's because they do.

Offering support for pregnant women is a good thing. But if someone shows up looking for an abortion, you should direct her to a clinic which can give her one. Not try to talk her out of it. That's the issue with pregnancy centers, they trick women into thinking they can provide abortion, when that is actually the opposite of what they do.

 

[soylentgreen]

I can find you plenty of examples of Pro-Choicers using misinformation to make their points. Turning your own logic around at you; does that mean that you and all other pro-choicers actually believe that you are killing babies and just want to kill babies?

It is not necessary for me to believe in the lie. It is necessary for the pro lifer to make up these lies. And i doubt you could list any lie from pro choice as you have just listed so easily a lie often told by pro lifers.

 

[CLAX1911]

If you oppose abortion, does only the objective, factual knowledge of biological human development from zygote to adult matter? Or do you think women need to be controlled by men and are too stupid to deserve bodily autonomy rights?

How smart are you about gynecology and obstetrics? Do you fully understand how women feel when they are pregnant with potential offspring that have only a 1/3 chance of being born?

The idea that pro life is about controlling women was always hilarious to me.

 

[Integrityrespec]

If you oppose abortion, does only the objective, factual knowledge of biological human development from zygote to adult matter? Or do you think women need to be controlled by men and are too stupid to deserve bodily autonomy rights?

How smart are you about gynecology and obstetrics? Do you fully understand how women feel when they are pregnant with potential offspring that have only a 1/3 chance of being born?

I wonder do you respect the sanctity of life? Those who favor the pro life position are really saying, "All Lives Matter". Considering he number of black babies aborted each year, they are saying, "Black Lives Matter" in a way the abortionist don't understand.
The idea that a woman is being controlled by men is ridiculous, that's just a left wing guilt trip. There is a higher moral calling and it's about life.

 

[weaver2]

You are misrepresenting my argument. Some Pro-Life folks do indeed lie, just as Pro-Choice folks do. That, however, doesn't mean that 51% of American women are all involved in a massive conspiracy to lie about their true desire to be controlled by men, any more than the fact that pro choicers sometimes will lie means that the Pro Choice movement must all be lying when they claim not to believe that an unborn child is indeed an independent human child with human rights.

You argument was that the pro-life movement is internally consistent. It isn't. And I stated why. For some reason you keep telling me everybody lies and it's just human to do so.

That is incorrect - there is variation within the pro-life movement about under what circumstances killing a child is justified.

Only among the the Baptists.

You appear to be suffering from a - very - common malady, wherein we define those who disagree with us by overemphasizing bad or extreme outliers and attempting to define the entire Out Group by those outliers.

Why don't you identify exactly where I'm overemphasizing extreme outlines.

The Beyond Conflict people have put out an interesting study:

Our research has found a consistent pattern. There is a wide divide between perception and reality across key measures of the Beyond Conflict Polarization Index™. Americans incorrectly believe that members of the other party dehumanize, dislike, and disagree with them about twice as much as they actually do. In short, we believe we’re more polarized than we really are—and that misperception can drive us even further apart. The divide is correlated with outcomes that are consequential for democracy and represent a new degree of toxic polarization in America....​

If you are actually interested in understanding people who aren't like you, let me know. Sadly, I doubt it - ignorance helps fuel pride, moral certainty, and bigotry, all of which are self-reinforcing, so most folks prefer to hold on to it, but :shrug:

Yes, I skimmed you article and as I said it looks like the charts show that it's conservatives that are doing most of the dehumanizing disliking and disagreeing .

:yawn: if I can demonstrate some pro choicers doing things that I think are internally inconsistent or even lying, does that mean that pro-choicers actually do believe that they are killing babies, and just want to kill babies?

. Help yourself. Would very much like to see what you consider internal inconsistencies in the pro-choice movement.

Or, perchance, is that logic really ****ing stupid

.

 

[weaver2]

I can find you plenty of examples of Pro-Choicers using misinformation to make their points. ......

Then quit talking about it and do it!!!