Politics be damned: Electric cars aren't really so polarizing

[Bullseye]

They are VERY widely available and they just take long enough to get a bite to eat at a restaurant (bout 30-40 mins depending on how much you need.) i was talking about long range trips as well. My dad’s tesla does pretty well when we go to pittsburgh which is around 6-7 hour trip (note these are just rough estimates)

Hurry for you dad. Still no sale here.

 

[ludin]

BOLT not VOLT. It's all-electric. Names are similar, and a little confusing.

still a chevy

 

[VanceMack]

Do you think only carbon products produce energy? That would be the only way that makes sense.

Where do you find anything I have said that suggests that?

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

Seems like a math problem to me -

9.5 hours to complete a 650 mile journey in a gas car.

If we drive 70mph in the electric but need 20 minute fast charge stops at 200miles, 320, 440, and 560, have we not added 1 hour and 20 minutes of additional stoppage time? Does the same distance trip not take more time making it almost 12 hours in the car? Do we not need to plan out our destination based on one 200 mile recharge station location and 3 subsequent 120 mile charging station locations to reach our destination?

My range anxiety is not only legitimate, it is exponentially larger once one completes the mathematics.

Sure, if you take regular 650 mile trips and never once stop the car for anything.
Not true of the typical driver, for whom 600-650 miles is pretty much a day's worth and then some, and people have to eat, poop, pee, stretch, etc.

I am just saying that the range anxiety is overplayed for most people.
I'm also saying that in a couple or three years, it will likely be a thing of the past for most prospective buyers.
Your mileage may vary, as the saying goes.

 

[LosAngelesAngel]

~ Just imagine if battery design ever becomes smaller & lighter ! `:2dance:

 

[Media_Truth]

All I did was Google Bolt problems. Easy peasy. There are pages and pages of them.

You've got your agenda. So do the Koch Brothers.

 

[Media_Truth]

Sure, if you take regular 650 mile trips and never once stop the car for anything.
Not true of the typical driver, for whom 600-650 miles is pretty much a day's worth and then some, and people have to eat, poop, pee, stretch, etc.

I am just saying that the range anxiety is overplayed for most people.
I'm also saying that in a couple or three years, it will likely be a thing of the past for most prospective buyers.
Your mileage may vary, as the saying goes.

"Range Anxiety" - the new FEAR!

 

[Mason66]

So what? I personally was in a car that caught fire for no obvious reason. One minute it's fine, the next it's stalling out, belching smoke when I turned it back on, people were waving at me because I had no idea the engine was on fire. No impact, no collision, car had no obvious issues; in fact, it's more common for cars to catch on fire because of a problem with the wiring or a fuel leak than in a collision.

Some Kia and Hyundai cars are bursting into flames for no reason

Since it was not an electric car, the toxic fumes from the battery burning didn't kill you.

That is a good thing.

 

[Waddy]

You've got your agenda. So do the Koch Brothers.

If by that you mean I'm realistically looking at the downside of modern vehicles, EV in particular, guilty as charged.

 

[Mason66]

Seems like a math problem to me -

9.5 hours to complete a 650 mile journey in a gas car.

If we drive 70mph in the electric but need 20 minute fast charge stops at 200miles, 320, 440, and 560, have we not added 1 hour and 20 minutes of additional stoppage time? Does the same distance trip not take more time making it almost 12 hours in the car? Do we not need to plan out our destination based on one 200 mile recharge station location and 3 subsequent 120 mile charging station locations to reach our destination?

My range anxiety is not only legitimate, it is exponentially larger once one completes the mathematics.

It will be much more than the 20 minutes each time. They have put the charging stations near casinos and restaurants and other entertainment places for you to do something while the car is being charged. Chances are you will be doing other things when that 20 minutes are up.

 

[Media_Truth]

If by that you mean I'm realistically looking at the downside of modern vehicles, EV in particular, guilty as charged.

I've been around this forum enough to recognize the agenda.

 

[Media_Truth]

It will be much more than the 20 minutes each time. They have put the charging stations near casinos and restaurants and other entertainment places for you to do something while the car is being charged. Chances are you will be doing other things when that 20 minutes are up.

I've been around this forum enough to recognize the agenda.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

Do note electric vehicles DO pollute directly themselves. The electric motors produce ozone from electricity arcing. That's some of the brown stuff in smog.

They would if they still used "brushes" in electric motors, which they haven't in fifty years.
And besides, unless you show me figures on "electric arc ozone pollution", I'm going to discount this as nonsense. Because it is.
By the way, automotive electric motors are sealed anyway. See if you can guess why.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

I don't see how Tesla gets away with not selling the parts to individuals. But electric cars will get better. We're at the beginning of this technology. I just caution against getting caught up in the hype. I read the EV forums; that's where you can find truth. Real owners, and their experiences. Right now they have lots of problems with the basic technology.

I think I've probably repeated the comparison to early 1900's horseless carriages three or four times in this thread alone.
I am not "caught up in the hype" about EV cars, but I own a hybrid, so does my daughter and a lot of family and friends own either hybrids or full EV's.
None of us own Teslas.

And more importantly, none of the hysterical scenarios being thrown around by the luddites have happened to them.
Real owners and their experiences? You want em, we got em.

People who think electric cars aren't going to become mainstream aren't thinking straight, and they sound like the buggy whip makers at the turn of the century who talked hysterically about gasoline starting tremendous conflagrations that would consume entire cities.

Can you say: TRYING TOO HARD?
I knew you could, neighbor.

 

[Waddy]

I think I've probably repeated the comparison to early 1900's horseless carriages three or four times in this thread alone.
I am not "caught up in the hype" about EV cars, but I own a hybrid, so does my daughter and a lot of family and friends own either hybrids or full EV's.
None of us own Teslas.

And more importantly, none of the hysterical scenarios being thrown around by the luddites have happened to them.
Real owners and their experiences? You want em, we got em.

People who think electric cars aren't going to become mainstream aren't thinking straight, and they sound like the buggy whip makers at the turn of the century who talked hysterically about gasoline starting tremendous conflagrations that would consume entire cities.

Can you say: TRYING TOO HARD?
I knew you could, neighbor.

As I said several times, the future is going to be EV. And my wife drives a Prius; great car. That technology is sound. But for the full electric EV we are still in the de-bugging stage, like all new technologies go through. That's why I caution about the hype. And it only makes sense that at some point, very shortly, cars will be disposable items. Many are in the works; selling for $8K to $11K. That will make them impractical for major repairs, which are rather impractical even now. It will also keep the costs of maintenance and insurance down. And it will allow technology upgrades on a timely basis. I estimate about a ten year lifespan on these vehicles. Don't bother waxing them, the paint will last those ten years just fine.

I base this on what I've seen with other electronics, and EV's are simply electronic devices. The early VCR's, flat screen TV's, cell phones, solar panels, etc. were all very expensive and trouble prone but the technology got much cheaper and more reliable. And nobody "fixes" that stuff anymore. I can't remember the last TV repair shop I've seen. Cars will follow that exact pattern. Personally, I prefer to drive my old 94' Toyota 4banger for a while longer until I see that progress.

 

[Nuber]

Sure, if you take regular 650 mile trips and never once stop the car for anything.
Not true of the typical driver, for whom 600-650 miles is pretty much a day's worth and then some, and people have to eat, poop, pee, stretch, etc.

I am just saying that the range anxiety is overplayed for most people.
I'm also saying that in a couple or three years, it will likely be a thing of the past for most prospective buyers.
Your mileage may vary, as the saying goes.

Short range use (daily driver) of an EV is viable for a number of people - I am not debating that. Long range use is significantly problematic. How people many each condition applies to would be an interesting detail to determine.

Technology improvements will certainly change the future of the EV. Each of the problems that EV's have will eventually be addressed to some extent if not outright solved. I would prefer that this take place in the marketplace without government interference via subsidy.


As Grover Cleveland said -

“I can find no warrant for such an appropriation in the Constitution, and I do not believe that the power and duty of the general government ought to be extended to the relief of individual suffering which is in no manner properly related to the public service or benefit. A prevalent tendency to disregard the limited mission of this power and duty should, I think, be steadfastly resisted, to the end that the lesson should be constantly enforced that, though the people support the government, the government should not support the people.”

 

[Media_Truth]

As I said several times, the future is going to be EV. And my wife drives a Prius; great car. That technology is sound. But for the full electric EV we are still in the de-bugging stage, like all new technologies go through. That's why I caution about the hype. And it only makes sense that at some point, very shortly, cars will be disposable items. Many are in the works; selling for $8K to $11K. That will make them impractical for major repairs, which are rather impractical even now. It will also keep the costs of maintenance and insurance down. And it will allow technology upgrades on a timely basis. I estimate about a ten year lifespan on these vehicles. Don't bother waxing them, the paint will last those ten years just fine.

I base this on what I've seen with other electronics, and EV's are simply electronic devices. The early VCR's, flat screen TV's, cell phones, solar panels, etc. were all very expensive and trouble prone but the technology got much cheaper and more reliable. And nobody "fixes" that stuff anymore. I can't remember the last TV repair shop I've seen. Cars will follow that exact pattern. Personally, I prefer to drive my old 94' Toyota 4banger for a while longer until I see that progress.

You continue to discount the EV satisfaction rate with TODAY's ELECTRIC VEHICLES. By all means, continue to drive your beater. But you continue to rant and rave, and tell EV owners that their happiness is unwarranted. We've all driven internal combustion engines. We know where we've been, and what we have now. You don't have one!!!!

 

[Media_Truth]

I think I've probably repeated the comparison to early 1900's horseless carriages three or four times in this thread alone.
I am not "caught up in the hype" about EV cars, but I own a hybrid, so does my daughter and a lot of family and friends own either hybrids or full EV's.
None of us own Teslas.

And more importantly, none of the hysterical scenarios being thrown around by the luddites have happened to them.
Real owners and their experiences? You want em, we got em.

People who think electric cars aren't going to become mainstream aren't thinking straight, and they sound like the buggy whip makers at the turn of the century who talked hysterically about gasoline starting tremendous conflagrations that would consume entire cities.

Can you say: TRYING TOO HARD?
I knew you could, neighbor.

Absolutely! Have you noticed that not one EV owner has responded on this forum, with dissatisfaction?

 

[Nuber]

It will be much more than the 20 minutes each time. They have put the charging stations near casinos and restaurants and other entertainment places for you to do something while the car is being charged. Chances are you will be doing other things when that 20 minutes are up.

The exact time someone spends charging an EV or getting gas is certainly arguable. I just wasn't interested in arguing it as the poster's point of view was mathematically countering his own argument without debate about the details.

Personally, when I go on a road trip, I am the kind of person who wants to be at my destination, not hanging out a charging station or a gasoline station. Call me an in and out kind of guy in this regard. Wait, did I just come up with another activity option to consider during that 20 minute delay...

 

[wellwisher]

Picture a future scenario where electric cars get a boost in battery technology and are suddenly very competitive with gasoline powered cars. The free market responds to the lower price, and now we have tens of million of electric cars on the roads, with these numbers steadily increasing.

How does everyone charge their new electric cars on a busy commute to the big city? It is one thing to wait in line, for five minutes, while other people dispense gasoline. How about 20 minutes per person, while they dispense electricity? What prevents the charging stations industry from price gouging or charging a loitering fee as electric cars pile up in line, and block mini-mart customers?

Currently the number of electric cars is small and the industry is trying to make it as convenient as possible. They have built a national grid of charging stations to help promote the product. These are currently under utilized and therefore convenient, as part of a positive sales promotion. But once the electric car is self standing in terms of sales, this convenience will change, as electric car competition results in belt tightening, to meet the needs of smaller margins. Entrepreneurs will open up charging centers as a separate industry. What neighborhoods will want long lines of electric cars, waiting in charging lines, that spill into city streets?

Do we then need to built a huge coal fire plants, near in every major city, to meet the extra electricity needs? Maybe in Arizona the charging stations can be on large tracks of land, with acres of solar collectors. However, this is not viable in larger older cities.

Say there is a blackout in a large city, due to ice storms, hurricanes and tornados, so now nobody can charge. The only ones who can travel will need to have a gas powered generator or a hybrid car that makes it own electricity. We can't get rid of the gasoline engine, entirely, due to its portability even under adverse conditions. The National Guard will come in with gas powered vehicles.

I can see a scenario where electric cars are doing well, until a major disaster or other bottlenecks short circuits everyone. Those who have the money will then buy a gasoline alternative. Electric cars may not be a one size solution that fits all scenarios.

 

[Media_Truth]

Picture a future scenario where electric cars get a boost in battery technology and are suddenly very competitive with gasoline powered cars. The free market responds to the lower price, and now we have tens of million of electric cars on the roads, with these numbers steadily increasing.

How does everyone charge their new electric cars on a busy commute to the big city? It is one thing to wait in line, for five minutes, while other people dispense gasoline. How about 20 minutes per person, while they dispense electricity? What prevents the charging stations industry from price gouging or charging a loitering fee as electric cars pile up in line, and block mini-mart customers?

Currently the number of electric cars is small and the industry is trying to make it as convenient as possible. They have built a national grid of charging stations to help promote the product. These are currently under utilized and therefore convenient, as part of a positive sales promotion. But once the electric car is self standing in terms of sales, this convenience will change, as electric car competition results in belt tightening, to meet the needs of smaller margins. Entrepreneurs will open up charging centers as a separate industry. What neighborhoods will want long lines of electric cars, waiting in charging lines, that spill into city streets?

Do we then need to built a huge coal fire plants, near in every major city, to meet the extra electricity needs? Maybe in Arizona the charging stations can be on large tracks of land, with acres of solar collectors. However, this is not viable in larger older cities.

Say there is a blackout in a large city, due to ice storms, hurricanes and tornados, so now nobody can charge. The only ones who can travel will need to have a gas powered generator or a hybrid car that makes it own electricity. We can't get rid of the gasoline engine, entirely, due to its portability even under adverse conditions. The National Guard will come in with gas powered vehicles.

I can see a scenario where electric cars are doing well, until a major disaster or other bottlenecks short circuits everyone. Those who have the money will then buy a gasoline alternative. Electric cars may not be a one size solution that fits all scenarios.

Picture Photovoltaic systems in most homes, which also power many of the household needs --->

 

[dcsports]

The exact time someone spends charging an EV or getting gas is certainly arguable. I just wasn't interested in arguing it as the poster's point of view was mathematically countering his own argument without debate about the details.

Personally, when I go on a road trip, I am the kind of person who wants to be at my destination, not hanging out a charging station or a gasoline station. Call me an in and out kind of guy in this regard. Wait, did I just come up with another activity option to consider during that 20 minute delay...

And I think that's the big issue. Most people don't have a stable of cars to choose from based on a given situation. An all electric car would absolutely meet my needs probably 95%+ of the time. I primarily drive to and from work and kid events. But every once in a while we take it to visit my parents an hour and a half away, or go camping, or take a trip to one of the other great cities in my state 150-200 miles away, or even visit relatives that live about 450 miles away. I don't want those kind of trips to suddenly become a logistical ordeal, figuring out where and when I can charge along the route.

 

[Mason66]

And I think that's the big issue. Most people don't have a stable of cars to choose from based on a given situation. An all electric car would absolutely meet my needs probably 95%+ of the time. I primarily drive to and from work and kid events. But every once in a while we take it to visit my parents an hour and a half away, or go camping, or take a trip to one of the other great cities in my state 150-200 miles away, or even visit relatives that live about 450 miles away. I don't want those kind of trips to suddenly become a logistical ordeal, figuring out where and when I can charge along the route.

I have used this analogy before.

Let's say you just got home from a long trip and your battery is low. You plug it in at home and start the charge, which will take all night.

You then get a call that your mother, an hour and a half away, fell and is on the way to the hospital, but you don't have enough juice to get there.

What do you do?

I don't think gas cars will go away anytime soon. For those of you who want to use an EV and accept the limitations, have at it, but I need a car to be ready when I need it to be, with no restrictions on that.

You never know what will happen.

 

[bomberfox]

Then again, i forgot to mention regenerative braking. and regaining a bit of charge when rolling downhill.

 

[dcsports]

I have used this analogy before.

Let's say you just got home from a long trip and your battery is low. You plug it in at home and start the charge, which will take all night.

You then get a call that your mother, an hour and a half away, fell and is on the way to the hospital, but you don't have enough juice to get there.

What do you do?

I don't think gas cars will go away anytime soon. For those of you who want to use an EV and accept the limitations, have at it, but I need a car to be ready when I need it to be, with no restrictions on that.

You never know what will happen.

Absolutely. Great point.

Then there's also the isue of the overall life of the battery. I know the batteries are 'supposed' to last for years. But I've never had a rechargable battery last for more than four years. Even then, there's a noticible drop in battery life after about the first year, and a tremendous one at the end. I can nurse more time out of an older cell phone, hooking it up to a charger at work or in the car, but you can't do that with the car itself, and replacement batteries cost thousands.