Pence: Abortion will end in U.S. 'in our time'

[Lursa]

I'm not complaining about that expense. Obviously, those children need to be adopted and I think it probably helps everyone in the long run.

But, do you realize that birth mothers of children who are in foster care are not charged for their kids' welfare costs? We do let birth parents off the hook, and I think that's the right thing to do.

Yes they often do have to pay. OTOH many are in jail or on drug or in rehab, or very poor and cannot. That's why the kids are in foster care. But at least in some states, parents that can pay, do have to.

https://www.sapling.com/8031650/parent-support-child-foster-care

 

[jaeger19]

There's no guarantee that the woman can survive but there's a guarantee that the baby would die in an abortion. So would the opposite not be a crushing disrespect to infants as second class citizens (assuming they are constitutionally people)?

The situation is a catch 22 no doubt, it's why I've remained on the fence rather than believing purely in either side. It seems more of a moral and personal issue than anything else, something that, under our form of government would originally deal with the states and their powers.

Actually no.. and that's because the best determiner of whats best for the infant is the mother.. not the government.

Abortion is actually what the child could possibly wish would happen if they could articulate their wishes. Its very possible that the reason for having an abortion is to avoid the baby pain and suffering.

 

[Lursa]

Actually no.. and that's because the best determiner of whats best for the infant is the mother.. not the government.

Abortion is actually what the child could possibly wish would happen if they could articulate their wishes. Its very possible that the reason for having an abortion is to avoid the baby pain and suffering.

Interesting.

I do agree that it cannot be assumed that the unborn would choose to be born, while the mother can definitely make her choice known.

 

[<alt>doxygen]

No the state would have the burden of proof that she intentionally murdered a person. Not sure where the **** you got the opposite notion from...

The bill I linked actually required that anyone suffering a miscarriage to not touch/remove anything and call the Sheriff's office to report it. The whole idea violates the 4th amendment more ways than I care to list.

 

[<alt>doxygen]

Most get flushed down the toilet without even knowing at the time.

But nothing would need to be reported because if such ridiculous laws were imposed on women, we just would never report a pregnancy. At least not until we decided if we wanted a kid or not.

Just wait until optical scanning tech gets a little farther. Scanners along the road to ID a woman as being "with child" one day and without the next, with no live birth to show for it could certainly enhance revenue for places that wanted to go that route.

The slippery slopes this nonsense brings up boggle my mind.

 

[jaeger19]

I understand that sentiment, and I agree that the taxpayers shouldn't have to pay for every deadbeat dad, but if we offered an opting-out period, a limited one, say just three months after they find out about the pregnancy, we'd avoid a lot of child abuse and reduce the risk of murder of the mother.

I don't think a lot of men would take that option, but if they did, it'd protect both the mother and the baby from angry repercussions.

.

Yeah.. I don't think that's a viable position. "If we didn;t hold men responsible for their actions it would protect the mother and baby from angry repercussions.

A lot of men abuse their spouses and children after those spouses and or children notify or even accidently spill the beans that they are being abused to teachers or medical staff.

So your premise would be that we should do away with reporting requirements because if we did.. it would protect the mother and children from angry repercussions.

 

[jaeger19]

Interesting.

I do agree that it cannot be assumed that the unborn would choose to be born, while the mother can definitely make her choice known.

Exactly... the anti abortion crowd often goes as far as stating that the mother can decide that her child go without medical care that will save their life.. and opt for "faith healing". Because the mother/ parents should have the choice versus the government.

but then.. when the baby is in the womb.. they won't give the mother the same choice.

(I have come to believe that its really about whether the MAN has a say. When its in a womb.. the man doesn;t get much say and that pisses these folks off. )

 

[calamity]

You'd think -- and yet -- it happens. Males and females both face the same challenges when considering whether or not they are ready to raise a child. The best option, of course, is to advocate for good birth control practices, but if the unthinkable happens (and, it happens way too often), I think both the male and the female should be able to opt-out of being parents, physically and financially.

They can. All men need to do is con, bribe or otherwise cajole the pregnant women into not declaring them the paternal parent. And, women actually have three options: keep it, give it up or terminate.

Another scam guys try is "joint custody." Doing this allows them to avoid child support. And, the guys I know who do it, dump the kids on their parents during the days they have custody.

 

[Lursa]

They can. All men need to do is con, bribe or otherwise cajole the pregnant women into not declaring them the paternal parent. And, women actually have three options: keep it, give it up or terminate.

Another scam guys try is "joint custody." Doing this allows them to avoid child support. And, the guys I know who do it, dump the kids on their parents during the days they have custody.

Well I'm sure they do that now. Plus there's always the Hail Mary.

And yet...they are still ending up saddled with payments...or custody.

We have no control what anyone does with custody...I dont see bringing that into the discussion and I'm sure alot of women make use of friends and relatives as well.

 

[calamity]

Well I'm sure they do that now. Plus there's always the Hail Mary.

And yet...they are still ending up saddled with payments...or custody.

We have no control what anyone does with custody...I dont see bringing that into the discussion and I'm sure alot of women make use of friends and relatives as well.

Of all the people I know who are single moms, only one is pulling in decent child support--$10K a month roughly. And, she did it because she was actually quite the sharp business woman in her choice of baby-daddies. All three of them are professionals with a lot to lose. So, they pay...a lot.

The rest got pregnant by deadbeats or the shared-custody gang. How many is that exactly? 1 out of 12, probably.

 

[Lursa]

Of all the people I know who are single moms, only one is pulling in decent child support--$10K a month roughly. And, she did it because she was actually quite the sharp business woman in her choice of baby-daddies. All three of them are professionals with a lot to lose. So, they pay...a lot.

The rest got pregnant by deadbeats or the shared-custody gang. How many is that exactly? 1 out of 12, probably.

I have too much personal knowledge with the ones making bad choices overall, unfortunately.

 

[calamity]

I have too much personal knowledge with the ones making bad choices overall, unfortunately.

Yeah, same here. Even those who ended up marrying the baby daddy often did not fare well in the end.

Two were unceremoniously dumped for younger women. Three or four ended up having to dump their man because of drug and alcohol addictions. One had a guy suddenly lose his drive and stay in bed all day, losing his job, the house and eventually the marriage. Four ended up dead, murdered by their poor choice of man. The list goes on, but it's depressing me to think about it all in too much detail.

 

[PTF]

About time our Vice President steps up to the plate and defend Pro Life.
As for a man and a woman having sex isn't the issue and no cause for jail time unless it's same sex with two dudes.

 

[nota bene]

You're right -- life isn't fair. It isn't fair for the higher percentage of women who are murdered when they're pregnant because the biological father didn't want to take responsibility.

Those women need not die. But, they will continue to die as long as we force males into accepting the consequences of the actions. If you don't believe me about higher rates of murder for women when they're pregnant, look it up. It's a "thing."

Yes, it's a "thing," and a terrible one. But are you suggesting that pregnant women are killed because they refused to get an abortion? What's the connection? From Wiki [bolding mine]:

Murder of pregnant women is a type of homicide often resulting from domestic violence. Domestic violence—or intimate partner violence (IPV)—is suffered by many, and when analyzing cases in which victims came forward, majority of them are women. Many of these women fear harm not just to themselves but also to their unborn children. Recently, more focus has been placed on pregnancy-associated deaths due to violence. IPV may begin when the victim becomes pregnant. Research has shown that abuse while pregnant is a red flag for pregnancy-associated homicide.

The murder of pregnant women represents a relatively recently studied class of murder. Limited statistics are available as there is no reliable system in place yet to track such cases. Whether pregnancy is a causal factor is hard to determine. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_pregnant_women

 

[nota bene]

Exactly... the anti abortion crowd often goes as far as stating that the mother can decide that her child go without medical care that will save their life.. and opt for "faith healing".

Oh, really? I think you're mixing your stereotypes here. :roll:

 

[Lursa]

Yes, it's a "thing," and a terrible one. But are you suggesting that pregnant women are killed because they refused to get an abortion? What's the connection? From Wiki [bolding mine]:

Murder of pregnant women is a type of homicide often resulting from domestic violence. Domestic violence—or intimate partner violence (IPV)—is suffered by many, and when analyzing cases in which victims came forward, majority of them are women. Many of these women fear harm not just to themselves but also to their unborn children. Recently, more focus has been placed on pregnancy-associated deaths due to violence. IPV may begin when the victim becomes pregnant. Research has shown that abuse while pregnant is a red flag for pregnancy-associated homicide.

The murder of pregnant women represents a relatively recently studied class of murder. Limited statistics are available as there is no reliable system in place yet to track such cases. Whether pregnancy is a causal factor is hard to determine. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_pregnant_women

Yup, it's totally a 'thing.' And that's one reason I dont include it in my list of consequences of pregnancy for women...I dont want to add to that.

 

[year2late]

Every miscarriage would have to be investigated.

Every medically necessary abortion would need to be investigated. (Women in some other countries need to get govt permission. And are sometimes denied. And then they sometimes die.)

Of course, the results of that would be that women wouldnt bother consulting a Dr before deciding to keep a pregnancy or not. Pregnancy tests are accurate today. Women would just choose ahead of time which other options for an abortion they'd take....illegal, Canada, Mex, nice cruise ships just outside US waters...just like gambling ships. All paid for by the private donations that currently fund PP and other providers of abortions. And my guess is that they'd increase.

Sounds about right.

 

[year2late]

Please let us know when the taxpayers can 'opt out' of our (zero) responsibilities for their kids then.

No kidding.

 

[Lursa]

Sounds about right.

I forgot to mention the great leap in the black market for the "morning after pill"...that will become quite the pipeline.

Yeah...more big govt, more bloated bureaucracy, more $$ spent on kids that most people cant afford to begin with....

 

[year2late]

I forgot to mention the great leap in the black market for the "morning after pill"...that will become quite the pipeline.

Yeah...more big govt, more bloated bureaucracy, more $$ spent on kids that most people cant afford to begin with....

I have been saying that for years.

Heck - out of work pot dealers would have a new steady stream of income. And they would have to supply good product, as they would not have consistent repeat customers so they would depend on word of mouth.

 

[Scrabaholic]

With regards to getting an abortion, DUH.

But if you're saying he has zero political say on whether or not abortions should be governed by state or federal or banned or not banned then you are absolutely 100% wrong.

Why should the govt be making medical decisions for women?

 

[Reformedfindlay]

Why should the govt be making medical decisions for women?

Non sequitur, scroll through the ensuing argument otherwise you aren't worth my time.

 

[Lursa]

Non sequitur, scroll through the ensuing argument otherwise you aren't worth my time.

She's Canadian and in CA they have a law that respects a 'right to bodily sovereignty' that protects women.

She is also one of the people that can speak to personally to not assuming every unborn would demand the right to life.

I have alot of respect for her.

 

[Reformedfindlay]

She's Canadian and in CA they have a law that respects a 'right to bodily sovereignty' that protects women.

She is also one of the people that can speak to personally to not assuming every unborn would demand the right to life.

I have alot of respect for her.

That's fine but she clearly didn't care enough to read through the thread, that or she didn't care enough to make it apparent in her response to me.

I know who she is I'm not new to the forum nor to the common speakers on abortion threads. That being said, generally I appreciate her input.

 

[Scrabaholic]

About time our Vice President steps up to the plate and defend Pro Life.
As for a man and a woman having sex isn't the issue and no cause for jail time unless it's same sex with two dudes.

Are you saying gays should be imprisoned?