Parents of a baby decide not to recognize it's gender. [W:139]

[Andalublue]

Re: Parents of a baby decide not to recognize it's gender.

Yeah, I forgot it was a Canadian.

Sure. I think the principles remain pretty similar though. It's an interesting case, just not one I'd have thought merited anyone get upset and authoritarian about. The parents don't want to register their kid's sex. So what? Why force them?

 

[SDET]

Re: Parents of a baby decide not to recognize it's gender.

This child is gonna be so ****ed up growing with these loons.

Not necessarily: That child might become one of those young people who roll their eyes every time one of their parents open their mouths. I envision a 16 year old that says they just can't fully express themselves without a new car.

 

[KevinKohler]

Re: Parents of a baby decide not to recognize it's gender.

Sure. I think the principles remain pretty similar though. It's an interesting case, just not one I'd have thought merited anyone get upset and authoritarian about. The parents don't want to register their kid's sex. So what? Let them not.

I see that as making their child, and other peoples, lives more difficult. Nobody likes labels, but they're an important means of communicating.

I can only imagine the pediatric ions exasperation when dealing with that family starts, lol.

 

[Andalublue]

Re: Parents of a baby decide not to recognize it's gender.

I see that as making their child, and other peoples, lives more difficult. Nobody likes labels, but they're an important means of communicating.

I'm afraid I can't really agree. There might be all sorts of information that would be useful for third parties to know about an individual, third parties whose 'lives' maybe more difficult as a result of not having that information, but at what point does the need to know outweigh the right to privacy?

I can think of dozens of pieces of fundamental physiological data about an individual that COULD be required on a birth certificate but isn't, because why? Because it's just a record of a birth: time, date, place and biological parents. What more does it need to contain and why?

I can only imagine the pediatric ions exasperation when dealing with that family starts, lol.

Oh, I can imagine. And dealing with that lawyer who has a thing against capital letters! God save us, but it doesn't mean they don't have a point, nor that they should be forced to formalise private information that they don't wish to.

 

[CLAX1911]

Re: Parents of a baby decide not to recognize it's gender.

Is there any reason why a birth certificate needs to specify sex/gender any more than it needs to specify eye colour, or noticeable distinguishing marks? I'm not sure what I'm meant to be finding disturbing or outrageous about this.

The part I find disturbing is this couple is going to pretend their child doesn't have any sex.

 

[Andalublue]

Re: Parents of a baby decide not to recognize it's gender.

The part I find disturbing is this couple is going to pretend their child doesn't have any sex.

Or they are going to wait until s/he's old enough to decide for him/herself. What damage do you think it does a child not to have strict gender definitions imposed on them from birth?

 

[CLAX1911]

Re: Parents of a baby decide not to recognize it's gender.

Or they are going to wait until s/he's old enough to decide for him/herself.

You don't decide your sex for yourself. You're born that way.

What damage do you think it does a child not to have strict gender definitions imposed on them from birth?

I wasn't talking about gender. This thread isn't snit gender. It's about sex.

We don't really even know what damage will happen if a child is raised by parents who lie to them about their sex. This is an experiment that doesn't really need to take place.

People are born with a sex it isn't assigned they're also born with a gender which isn't assigned. If I am to believe when transgender people say they were born that way and I don't see any reason why not to believe them.

This seems like politics and a social experiment more than anything else. I would think the last thing anybody would want as for their child to be trans.

 

[Andalublue]

Re: Parents of a baby decide not to recognize it's gender.

You don't decide your sex for yourself. You're born that way.

No one is suggesting the kid doesn't have a sex, just that they don't feel like it's any business of anyone else's.

I wasn't talking about gender. This thread isn't snit gender. It's about sex.

Respectfully, I disagree. I think it's about whether parents should be required to declare their child's sex, not whether they themselves recognise the physical sex the child displays.

From the article in the OP there seems to be a terminology problem. Does the birth certificate or health card ask parents to identify a child's sex or its gender? That's not clear, but I think we are clear that sex and gender are not synonymous. The parents,

argues that a visual inspection at birth is unable to determine what gender that person will have or identify with later in life.
They want to keep Searyl's sex off all official records.

See? The two terms seem to be being used interchangeably. That's confusing.

We don't really even know what damage will happen if a child is raised by parents who lie to them about their sex.

I didn't read anything of that kind in the linked article. They don't say they are going to lie, but that they will not impose either 'the boy box or the girl box' on to their offspring.

This is an experiment that doesn't really need to take place.

TBH, that's not really your call.

People are born with a sex it isn't assigned they're also born with a gender which isn't assigned. If I am to believe when transgender people say they were born that way and I don't see any reason why not to believe them.

We're back to the semantic sex/gender conundrum again, aren't we?

This seems like politics and a social experiment more than anything else. I would think the last thing anybody would want as for their child to be trans.

Again, that's a personal, value-laden opinion to which you're perfectly entitled, but which isn't particularly relevant to the situation of this family, unless you're going to seek to legislate to impose that opinion on others who don't share it.

 

[CLAX1911]

Re: Parents of a baby decide not to recognize it's gender.

No one is suggesting the kid doesn't have a sex, just that they don't feel like it's any business of anyone else's.

The parents are suggesting the sex is undetermined.

Respectfully, I disagree. I think it's about whether parents should be required to declare their child's sex, not whether they themselves recognise the physical sex the child displays.

I saw nothing in the story that gives thus impression.

From the article in the OP there seems to be a terminology problem. Does the birth certificate or health card ask parents to identify a child's sex or its gender? That's not clear, but I think we are clear that sex and gender are not synonymous. The parents,

official documents ask for sex not gender this isn't about gender. Except that in this case gender and sex are synonyms because they didn't want to describe the sex of their baby.

See? The two terms seem to be being used interchangeably. That's confusing.

the two terms can be used interchangeably. In some cases they are synonyms it all really depends on context. And in this context since they're talking about the sex of the baby in going on about gender it is synonymous

I didn't read anything of that kind in the linked article. They don't say they are going to lie, but that they will not impose either 'the boy box or the girl box' on to their offspring.

they lied by saying the sex is undetermined. Sex isn't imposed on you, you're born that way

TBH, that's not really your call.

yes it is. A parent imposing they're non-binary nonsense on a child is a social detriment to them. Sing hey your a boy or hey your girl isn't. It's funny they don't want to impose a reality on but they want to impose some bizarre concept that's completely undefined.

We're back to the semantic sex/gender conundrum again, aren't we?

no we're not. Sometimes gender is synonymous with sex and other times it's not. It's all based on context. Since we're talking about a document that designates sex in this case it's a synonym.

Again, that's a personal, value-laden opinion to which you're perfectly entitled, but which isn't particularly relevant to the situation of this family, unless you're going to seek to legislate to impose that opinion on others who don't share it.

Yes honesty is a value as is kindness. I suppose parents don't have to share those values when raising their children but I don't think it helps the child cope in the real world.

 

[VanceMack]

Re: Parents of a baby decide not to recognize it's gender.

How about all the other paper work a person fills out in life? The little box you check for M or F, are they gonna start putting a 3rd box? "Other" ? lol. Hell, even registering on this forum ask for gender.

That was probably created before people decided to do this ridiculous charade about gender choice in the quest of making things 'normal'. You know...back before people list their ****ing minds.


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[Andalublue]

Re: Parents of a baby decide not to recognize it's gender.

The parents are suggesting the sex is undetermined.

Not according to that article. Where are you getting that?

I saw nothing in the story that gives thus impression.

You say. "It's not about gender, it's about sex." (Post#157) The opening sentence of the OP-linked article says: "An eight-month old Canadian baby has been issued a health card without a gender marker". So clearly it is, at least in part, about gender.

official documents ask for sex not gender this isn't about gender. Except that in this case gender and sex are synonyms because they didn't want to describe the sex of their baby.

What 'official documents'? Are you going to post us the Canadian official medical card or birth certificate application forms that prove your point? I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying that I don't believe you until you prove your assertion, which is a very sweeping assertion.

the two terms can be used interchangeably. In some cases they are synonyms it all really depends on context. And in this context since they're talking about the sex of the baby in going on about gender it is synonymous

How terribly convenient. So, what you're saying is that the two terms are synonymous when you say they are.

they lied by saying the sex is undetermined. Sex isn't imposed on you, you're born that way

They said nothing of the kind. Where did you get that from? The article says: "The health card has been issued with a "U" in the space for "sex", which could be for "undetermined" or "unassigned." That's what the health card says. I very much doubt that the issuing authority for the health card takes dictation from the parents. That wording is what the health authority decided to record. Where's your evidence that the parents claimed the sex of their baby was 'undetermined'?

yes it is.

No, it isn't. Unless you have some kind of authority that we aren't aware of.

A parent imposing they're non-binary nonsense on a child is a social detriment to them.

Another of your opinions. They're coming thick and fast, aren't they? Especially the former.

Sing hey your a boy or hey your girl isn't. It's funny they don't want to impose a reality on but they want to impose some bizarre concept that's completely undefined.

Sorry, those two sentences don't appear to have any grammatical meaning.

no we're not. Sometimes gender is synonymous with sex and other times it's not. It's all based on context. Since we're talking about a document that designates sex in this case it's a synonym.

You really are asking us to assign you all kinds of interpretive legitimacy, aren't you?

Yes honesty is a value as is kindness.

If so, I'd advise you adopt some of both.

I suppose parents don't have to share those values when raising their children but I don't think it helps the child cope in the real world.

Clearly foreign busy-bodies don't have to share those values either. And why anyone would listen to your opinion on what might help this particular child in the real world is anyone's guess. As I've said, you are entitled to your opinion but not entitled to have it taken seriously.

 

[CLAX1911]

Re: Parents of a baby decide not to recognize it's gender.

Not according to that article. Where are you getting that?

Yes according to the article.

You say. "It's not about gender, it's about sex." (Post#157) The opening sentence of the OP-linked article says: "An eight-month old Canadian baby has been issued a health card without a gender marker". So clearly it is, at least in part, about gender.

In that context gender is a synonym with sex.

What 'official documents'? Are you going to post us the Canadian official medical card or birth certificate application forms that prove your point?

I don't have to.

I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying that I don't believe you until you prove your assertion, which is a very sweeping assertion.

That's absurd. When you see a place to indicate gender on a birth certificate, it isn't along for identity. There is no way we could possibly w
That for an infant.

How terribly convenient. So, what you're saying is that the two terms are synonymous when you say they are.

No, they are synonymous when context says they are. See just above.

They said nothing of the kind. Where did you get that from? The article says: "The health card has been issued with a "U" in the space for "sex", which could be for "undetermined" or "unassigned." That's what the health card says.

Both of which are incorrect. People aren't assigned a sex and a cursory exam would determine it.

I very much doubt that the issuing authority for the health card takes dictation from the parents. That wording is what the health authority decided to record. Where's your evidence that the parents claimed the sex of their baby was 'undetermined'?

I don't want to play this game.

Another of your opinions. They're coming thick and fast, aren't they? Especially the former.

Gender and sex are binary. Thats not an opinion.

Sorry, those two sentences don't appear to have any grammatical meaning.

I find it odd that they are resisting the imposition of reality instead thru want to impose "non-binary" fantasies.

You really are asking us to assign you all kinds of interpretive legitimacy, aren't you?

What are you asking?

If so, I'd advise you adopt some of both.

Don't attempt to make this personal.

Clearly foreign busy-bodies don't have to share those values either. And why anyone would listen to your opinion on what might help this particular child in the real world is anyone's guess. As I've said, you are entitled to your opinion but not entitled to have it taken seriously.

This isn't an argument.

 

[Roadvirus]

Re: Parents of a baby decide not to recognize it's gender.

I'm suggesting parents should stop forcing gender identity on their children. It's pointless and might cause damage.

Some of these SJA people can't help themselves and want to push their warped logic like this, to hell with the consequences. And that's one of the reasons why people don't take them seriously.

 

[Roadvirus]

Re: Parents of a baby decide not to recognize it's gender.

And New York recognizes 31. Today. It differs around the globe.

Its not the people that have trans feelings that are mentally ill. Its a society that is so ****ed up it creates this kind of ridiculous bull**** in the first place.

Doing stuff like that, capitulating to their...whatever...is what keeps SJA idiots coming back for more. They see someone giving them an inch, they'll take a mile.

 

[molten_dragon]

Re: Parents of a baby decide not to recognize it's gender.

How does a non-binary person not understand the difference between sex and gender? You would think they'd be more aware of it than the average person. The birth certificate isn't listing the child's gender, it's listing the child's biological sex. What a bunch of nutballs. I feel bad for that poor kid.

 

[CLAX1911]

Re: Parents of a baby decide not to recognize it's gender.

How does a non-binary person not understand the difference between sex and gender? You would think they'd be more aware of it than the average person. The birth certificate isn't listing the child's gender, it's listing the child's biological sex. What a bunch of nutballs. I feel bad for that poor kid.

I agree.

 

[dirtpoorchris]

Re: Parents of a baby decide not to recognize it's gender.

meanwhile while obsessing over gender....