Opening a Letter to Neil Gorsuch [W:127]

[Logicman]

AND THE MERE CLAIM DOES NOT MEAN IT ACTUALLY HAPPENED. And even if it did happen, that doesn't prove God had anything to do with it.

You see, this is exactly what I was talking about - You haven't done your homework to see if it's true or not.

You know, I try to help you guys see the light, and I recommend some excellent resources (like the skeptic who investigated the historical Jesus and, based on the evidences, became a believer), but you run from them.

So once again I recommend, "The Case for Christ," by former skeptic Lee Strobel.

Recommend you read that so you can carry on a knowledgeable conversation with those you debate.

 

[FutureIncoming]

You see, this is exactly what I was talking about - You haven't done your homework to see if it's true or not.

READING PROPAGANDA IS NOT THE WAY TO DISCOVER OBJECTIVE FACTS. Furthermore, you have yet to present a single Objectively Verifiable Fact to support the claims you have made. You have merely presented Propaganda Sources. Tsk, tsk!

You know, I try to help you guys see the light,

YOUR OPINION OF WHAT QUALIFIES AS "LIGHT" IS NOT GETTING SUPPORTED WITH OBJECTIVELY VERIFIABLE EVIDENCE. Therefore it remains your opinion, only, and can be entirely ignored by others who have better things to do than swallow unsupported claims.

and I recommend some excellent resources (like the skeptic who investigated the historical Jesus and, based on the evidences, became a believer), but you run from them.

"EXCELLENT" TO YOU IS STILL PROPAGANDA TO OTHERS. For example, someone who claimed to be a skeptic could have been lying, the whole time intending to write Propaganda. SO, why are you not linking the actual "evidences" that you claim exist?

So once again I recommend, "The Case for Christ," by former skeptic Lee Strobel.

SEE ABOVE. Just because he claimed he was once a skeptic, that doesn't mean it was true.

Recommend you read that so you can carry on a knowledgeable conversation with those you debate.

I'M NOT INTERESTED IN PROPAGANDA. Also, I noticed you didn't even try to address the point I raised, that if Jesus was educated and skilled enough, plenty of magician's tricks would seem to be "miraculous" to ordinary folks 2000 years ago. And therefore even true eyewitnesses might not actually know what really happened!

 

[Logicman]

READING PROPAGANDA IS NOT THE WAY TO DISCOVER OBJECTIVE FACTS. Furthermore, you have yet to present a single Objectively Verifiable Fact to support the claims you have made. You have merely presented Propaganda Sources. Tsk, tsk!


YOUR OPINION OF WHAT QUALIFIES AS "LIGHT" IS NOT GETTING SUPPORTED WITH OBJECTIVELY VERIFIABLE EVIDENCE. Therefore it remains your opinion, only, and can be entirely ignored by others who have better things to do than swallow unsupported claims.


"EXCELLENT" TO YOU IS STILL PROPAGANDA TO OTHERS. For example, someone who claimed to be a skeptic could have been lying, the whole time intending to write Propaganda. SO, why are you not linking the actual "evidences" that you claim exist?


SEE ABOVE. Just because he claimed he was once a skeptic, that doesn't mean it was true.


I'M NOT INTERESTED IN PROPAGANDA. Also, I noticed you didn't even try to address the point I raised, that if Jesus was educated and skilled enough, plenty of magician's tricks would seem to be "miraculous" to ordinary folks 2000 years ago. And therefore even true eyewitnesses might not actually know what really happened!

Propaganda my butt. And how would you know unless you reviewed and studied it, which you haven't?

You haven't done your homework.

 

[FutureIncoming]

Propaganda my butt. And how would you know

SIMPLE --you have failed to link any of the actual "evidence" you claim exists. You only linked **claims** of folks supposedly encountering evidence. Well, I don't need second-hand interpretations of the evidence (indistinguishable from Propaganda); I want direct access!

 

[gmeyers1944]

Then why does a woman have to have sex to get pregnant? (barring IVF and the like)

Sex is how God creates life. A lot of women have sex in an attempt to get pregnant, but don't get pregnant because it is not God's will for them to get pregnant.

 

[Removable Mind]

Sex is how God creates life. A lot of women have sex in an attempt to get pregnant, but don't get pregnant because it is not God's will for them to get pregnant.

So you believe god intervenes in human reproduction? Is every pregnancy god's will?

 

[gmeyers1944]

AMAZING. How is it that after it is fully explained how abortion fails to qualify as "murder", the person who received the explanation repeats the claim, or a variant of the claim, like a mindless broken record?

You did not " fully explain" anything. You gave your own opinion.

 

[gmeyers1944]

AND THE MERE CLAIM DOES NOT MEAN IT ACTUALLY HAPPENED. And even if it did happen, that doesn't prove God had anything to do with it.


IN DEBATE, THERE IS NEVER A NEED TO PROVE A NEGATIVE CLAIM. Only positive claims need to be proved. Like the positive claim that Jesus was more than just an educated and skilled human being.

Jewish leaders knew that Jesus was claiming to be God. That is why they tried to stone him. Jesus could not be "just an educated and skilled human being. He is either God, as he claimed, or just a person deserving to be stoned.

 

[gmeyers1944]

So you believe god intervenes in human reproduction? Is every pregnancy god's will?

God is not restricted by such a mundane thing as time. He knows how history will eventually work out. We may not understand now, but yes, every pregnancy is God's will. It may not be his perfect will, but it is his permissive will.

 

[Removable Mind]

God is not restricted by such a mundane thing as time. He knows how history will eventually work out. We may not understand now, but yes, every pregnancy is God's will. It may not be his perfect will, but it is his permissive will.

Since you are a mere mortal being it's impossible for you to know how, when, and why god imposes it's, his, or her will. It would also be impossible for you to know if god has intervened in any given woman's life and divinely inspired her to have an abortion.

 

[Scrabaholic]

Sex is how God creates life. A lot of women have sex in an attempt to get pregnant, but don't get pregnant because it is not God's will for them to get pregnant.

Why does such a powerful being need the woman to have sex to get pregnant? Can he not make her pregnant without it?

 

[Removable Mind]

Why does such a powerful being need the woman to have sex to get pregnant? Can he not make her pregnant without it?

The claim is that God has already impregnated a mortal woman so I think you're on to something, Scraba.

 

[FutureIncoming]

You did not " fully explain" anything. You gave your own opinion.

FALSE. There is plenty of Objectively Verifiable Data that abortion, the killing of a human animal entity is not murder, the killing of a person. First of all, the two concepts, "human" and "person" are totally different concepts that have nothing to do with each other. For proof, just Answer this Question: "If you were visiting a modern well-equipped medical lab, and some madman with a machete cut your head off in an attempt to murder you, but rescuers arrived in time, would you want them to save your headless human body, or save your severed head, to save YOU-the-person?" A person is a mind, not a body! For more proof, consider that when the United Nations did this, that means human governments agreed that nonhumans can qualify as person-class entities that deserve protection from arbitrary killing. For even more proof, consider that in the not-distant future we expect to start building True Artificial Intelligences, human persons are already fearing that robot persons will take all their jobs away.

NEXT, IT IS KNOWN THAT HUMAN NON-PERSONS EXIST. See your nearest hydatidiform mole, a 100% human entity that originates with an ovum-fertilization event, just like an ordinary human embryo originates with an ovum-fertilization event. But not even the most vehement of abortion opponents will claim that a human hydaditiform mole is a person! And for more proof, consider any brain-dead human adult on full life-support. The doctors and the scientists and even the lawyers all agree that it is a corpse, not a person any more, even though the human body is still alive (except for the brain). As a result of such Objectively Verifiable Facts (and others, such as data indicating that dolphins can qualify as persons, while unborn humans cannot pass even one of the many personhood tests that dolphins can easily pass), there is absolutely no valid rationale for claiming mindless unborn humans are persons (and therefore any killing of an unborn human cannot qualify as "murder").

IF IT IS YOUR OPINION THAT ABORTION IS MURDER... then that is the sort of Positive Claim you should support with Objectively Verifiable evidence (see Rule 5 of the link).

 

[Logicman]

SIMPLE --you have failed to link any of the actual "evidence" you claim exists. You only linked **claims** of folks supposedly encountering evidence. Well, I don't need second-hand interpretations of the evidence (indistinguishable from Propaganda); I want direct access!

You RUN from the evidence. It's all over the net.

Are you AFRAID to review the evidence in "The Case for Christ," by former Christ-denier Lee Strobel? Do you think Strobel was deranged when he changed his thinking, or was that based on EVIDENCE? The latter, as he documented in his book.

YOU HAVEN'T DONE YOUR HOMEWORK. YOU'RE AN EMPTY SHELL WHEN IT COMES TO ARGUING AGAINST JESUS.

 

[Removable Mind]

You RUN from the evidence. It's all over the net.

Are you AFRAID to review the evidence in "The Case for Christ," by former Christ-denier Lee Strobel? Do you think Strobel was deranged when he changed his thinking, or was that based on EVIDENCE? The latter, as he documented in his book.

YOU HAVEN'T DONE YOUR HOMEWORK. YOU'RE AN EMPTY SHELL WHEN IT COMES TO ARGUING AGAINST JESUS.

LM, bull****. Every religion known to humankind is joined on a voluntary membership basis. That includes Christianity. Nobody is force to accept the teachings or tenets of any religion. There's no Religion Cops who hunt down people for failing to conform to every tenet or teaching. Any person who subscribes to any religion can drop it at will. Walk away like it never existed.

Your drama queen, hell fire and brimstone nonsense means nothing except to those who have volunteered to adopt such beliefs.

If your Jesus wants to put an end to all of the things that make you miserable - don't you think it would have already happened? If Jesus was here today, he wouldn't have to worry about being crucified. Child Protective Services would have Jesus put in prison for severe child abuse based on every claim you've made about Jesus.

 

[Unitedwestand13]

The claim is that God has already impregnated a mortal woman so I think you're on to something, Scraba.

If this was the Greek gods being discussed then zues would be the primary culprit

 

[Removable Mind]

If this was the Greek gods being discussed then zues would be the primary culprit

Ahhhh, the good old days of fun and frolic - when the ancient gods toyed with mere mortals like a kid poking ants around with a stick.

So know it appears that we have a new invisible kid with a controversial disposition and bigger stick messing with the helpless mortals.

 

[Unitedwestand13]

Ahhhh, the good old days of fun and frolic - when the ancient gods toyed with mere mortals like a kid poking ants around with a stick.

So know it appears that we have a new invisible kid with a controversial disposition and bigger stick messing with the helpless mortals.

This is why I always point out that god created man in his own image.

Given how many flaws we have developed, makes one wonder if god himself was flawed

 

[Removable Mind]

This is why I always point out that god created man in his own image.

Given how many flaws we have developed, makes one wonder if god himself was flawed

I've honestly never ventured into wondering about such philosophical questions. Navigating through life as an emperical being is tough enough. But I get the gist of what you're saying.

 

[Logicman]

If your Jesus wants to put an end to all of the things that make you miserable - don't you think it would have already happened?

I'm not miserable, I'm happy as can be. Jesus is the reason. You're the ones who have fits when arguing against Jesus.

If Jesus was here today, he wouldn't have to worry about being crucified. Child Protective Services would have Jesus put in prison for severe child abuse based on every claim you've made about Jesus.

What a load of hooey.

You'd be another one who hasn't done his homework. The 'Case for Christ' by Lee Strobel, or 'The Historical Jesus' by Gary Habermas, are recommended. 'FutureIncoming' called Strobel's work 'propaganda,' but as I told him, how would he know it's propaganda without reading it? He still hasn't answered that question.

 

[Logicman]

This is why I always point out that god created man in his own image.

Given how many flaws we have developed, makes one wonder if god himself was flawed

Nope. It was the fall of man in Genesis where mankind got screwed up.

 

[Removable Mind]

I'm not miserable, I'm happy as can be. Jesus is the reason. You're the ones who have fits when arguing against Jesus.



What a load of hooey.

You'd be another one who hasn't done his homework. The 'Case for Christ' by Lee Strobel, or 'The Historical Jesus' by Gary Habermas, are recommended. 'FutureIncoming' called Strobel's work 'propaganda,' but as I told him, how would he know it's propaganda without reading it? He still hasn't answered that question.

I don't do homework on religions. You seem to take a lot of other people's opinions about your religion as the gospel when they don't have anymore empirical evidence/facts than you do.

 

[Logicman]

I don't do homework on religions. You seem to take a lot of other people's opinions about your religion as the gospel when they don't have anymore empirical evidence/facts than you do.

You haven't read the works I've cited, have you (The 'Case for Christ' by Lee Strobel, or 'The Historical Jesus' by Gary Habermas)?

 

[Removable Mind]

You haven't read the works I've cited, have you (The 'Case for Christ' by Lee Strobel, or 'The Historical Jesus' by Gary Habermas)?

LM, you read my previous post, I didn't stutter. Why the question?

 

[FutureIncoming]

You RUN from the evidence. It's all over the net.

THEN WHY DIDNT YOU LINK THE EVIDENCE, instead of linking Propaganda about the evidence?

Are you AFRAID to review the evidence in "The Case for Christ," by former Christ-denier Lee Strobel?

I WANT YOU TO PRESENT SOME OBJECTIVELY VERIFIABLE EVIDENCE. You are the one who is on-the-spot here at at Debate site, claiming evidence exists! Therefore I have no interest in the blather that other folks Propagandistically claim is evidence.

Do you think Strobel was deranged when he changed his thinking,

NOT WHAT I PREVIOUSLY POSTED. I said he could simply have been lying about originally being a skeptic.

or was that based on EVIDENCE?

SOMEONE ALREADY CONVINCED OF A CONCLUSION NATURALLY LOOKS FOR THINGS SUPPORTING THE CONCLUSION. What is the philosophical difference between believers in God and believers in UFOs, eh? Both groups claim they have evidence, but somehow the evidence is not enough to convince everyone....

The latter, as he documented in his book.

SEE ABOVE. The mere claim, say-so, by a believer is not enough for something to actually qualify as evidence. And here YOU are recommending such hear-say second-hand. Where is the Objectively Verifiable first-hand evidence, eh?

YOU HAVEN'T DONE YOUR HOMEWORK.

I KNOW THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN HOMEWORK AND PROPAGANDA. So far, all you have offered for study is the latter. Tsk, tsk!

YOU'RE AN EMPTY SHELL WHEN IT COMES TO ARGUING AGAINST JESUS.

STUPIDLY FALSE --I specifically indicated that I have no objections to the notion that Jesus existed. I merely pointed out that I want to see Objectively Verifiable evidence that Jesus was more than an educated and skilled human being.