One possible very good consequence of the pandemic

[Casper]

Who knows what will happen, but there's a good chance many parents will hopefully pull their kids out of useless government schools:

And trump will be gone, many new Babies will be born, some people will realize what is really important, the GOP has been exposed, people might be smarter with the stock market, among a few other pluses.

 

[Chomsky]

Imho, you’ll see Community/Junior College admissions skyrocket this decade, even next year. (This will of course have a negative effect on 4+ year college admissions.) Next year is just too much of an unknown.

Parents can’t afford expensive ‘general’ education classes when their finances are now at risk. One benefit we’ve already seen from CC’s is high school students getting a significant portion of an AA before graduation.

The AA transfers in toto to 4-year and beyond colleges/universities in Illinois. Kids can live at home and work a job for a couple years. Thanks for asking me an education question. Got me positive.

I appreciate the insight. But you didn't respond to the subject matter of the question I posed.

Are you still game to reply to it?

(I do value your opinion)

Let me ask you this? Do you think the same parent that can adequately teach Calculus through differential equations, can also teach a kid to excel in Grammar & Composition, AP Economics, Chem, Bio, etc.? I find it very hard to believe one (or two) parents would have that breadth of skillset to be able to prepare a kid to get into a competitive university. Maybe I could be wrong, but even with spectacular instruction notes - I can't imagine it.

 

[Lovebug]

Oops. Sorry. Didn't mean to hit you with a wall of text. I'm passionate about kids & education. Yeah, I was arguing the long term aspects, not just during this pandemic.

I personal think I'm probably capable of providing a reasonable grammar school level education at home, IF I have good materials and very good & well-detailed syllabuses. But I wouldn't want to try and give my kids a high-school level education. At least not to the level of the schools I ended-up sending them (private Catholic preps). No way.

What I am worried about at the moment is that many parents can't cope with teaching their children because of their own situation, lack of education, lack of internet access, not owning up to the responsibility. Too many families, not necessarily due to a making of their own, are incapable of stepping up. Sadly, those kids are slipping through some serious cracks. You are a concerned and responsible parent, but not everyone is able or willing.

 

[HumblePi]

Libertarians don't care if kids can't afford an education.

It's straight from the republican manifesto. 'Keep them ignorant, keep them poor, take away their healthcare so they die faster and in the meantime do all the dirty work behind their back, take over the entire government, trash the Constitution and rob the country blind while you can.'

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

Yes, There are indeed some very good public schools in some jurisdictions.

Can I ask you this? Do you believe it is possible at home, given the right materials & a diligent parent, to get the depth & breadth of education that was available at your school?

No. I don't.
Perhaps after Ninth or Tenth Grade it may be possible but K to at least Tenth, students are really "learning HOW TO learn" more than anything else.
In my youth, the higher standards would have dictated that was the case for K to Seventh Grade, but based on what my kids used to bring home, it is clear that a Seventh Grade public school education back then IS the equal of a Tenth Grade education today, but that is not the fault of the schools, it's the fault of MASSIVE BUDGET CUTS IN ALMOST EVERYTHING EXCEPT ATHLETICS in our public schools for the last 35 years.

Math, Social Studies, Civics, History, English, Science, Economics, foreign language instruction, even Industrial Arts, Art and Music have all been subjected to a continuing series of budget chopping axes.

Then we followed up with the nonsensical "No Child Left Behind" system of "teaching to the test" which wasted FOUR YEARS of children's lives by training them to take a stupid test every six months rather than actually LEARNING the material.
As a parent of school age kids during that time I saw the bullcrap our kids were bringing home and we began to home school our kids back then, ON TOP of their public school education, and we were able to do that because we engaged our kids, which piqued their curiosity.

But we had an unusual luxury because Karen is a disabled vet who is home all day long and I spent half my work time working from home in my home studio anyway, so we had that luxury of time, which most working Americans DON'T have, except NOW in this pandemic.

But we had to home school because OF Republican destruction of public schools. Our kids spent most of their school time IN Texas public schools.
Both of them graduated knowing a ton about Texas History but almost NOTHING about US and World History, because Texas public schools seem to think that only Texas History is important.

So I don't want to hear this crap about "government schools" anymore.
I particularly object to the TERM "government schools" by the way......**** EVERYONE who USES that term.
They're called PUBLIC SCHOOLS."


Again, anyone who uses the term "government schools" can take a long walk off a very short pier.
I am not even interested in debating anyone who uses that term because it's an automatic indicator that the person is an anti-government idiot who can't stand the existence of facts in the first place, and most of the people who like using that term also like things like "Creationism" and they object to things like "critical thinking" being taught in school.

 

[Chomsky]

What I am worried about at the moment is that many parents can't cope with teaching their children because of their own situation, lack of education, lack of internet access, not owning up to the responsibility. Too many families, not necessarily due to a making of their own, are incapable of stepping up. Sadly, those kids are slipping through some serious cracks. You are a concerned and responsible parent, but not everyone is able or willing.

Well, as to kids learning at home by themselves, I think quite a few of the high school subjects could be learned adequately to get by temporarily, like history or English lit. But some like math & the sciences might not work too well, though. Especially math. Very few kids have the skillset & aptitude to pick-up a high-school math book & teach themselves.

The reason why I'm so concerned with education, is my family literally came from nothing. On both sides they escaped war-torn Europe, with nothing but the clothes on their back. And they were essentially uneducated. Peasants really, and I say that proudly without animus.

So being broke & uneducated in a new country, all they could do was work hard & live cheap to give us kids the great equalizer - educations! So I saw firsthand how an education can lift one out of poverty. It was a lesson I never forgot. Because there was nothing to forget! It was our very lives!

And I followed through the same with my kids, but it was easier for them because I had already been around the block & could guide them. That was the one thing my parents couldn't give, was academic guidance. Which meant me & my siblings had to figure it out without them. Luckily, we went to good private schools that had amazing support infrastructure. I can't praise the Catholic Schools enough. I really can't.

 

[Lovebug]

Well, as to kids learning at home by themselves, I think quite a few of the high school subjects could be learned adequately to get by temporarily, like history or English lit. But some like math & the sciences might not work too well, though. Especially math. Very few kids have the skillset & aptitude to pick-up a high-school math book & teach themselves.

The reason why I'm so concerned with education, is my family literally came from nothing. On both sides they escaped war-torn Europe, with nothing but the clothes on their back. And they were essentially uneducated. Peasants really, and I say that proudly without animus.

So being broke & uneducated in a new country, all they could do was work hard & live cheap to give us kids the great equalizer - educations! So I saw firsthand how an education can lift one out of poverty. It was a lesson I never forgot. Because there was nothing to forget! It was our very lives!

And I followed through the same with my kids, but it was easier for them because I had already been around the block & could guide them. That was the one thing my parents couldn't give, was academic guidance. Which meant me & my siblings had to figure it out without them. Luckily, we went to good private schools that had amazing support infrastructure. I can't praise the Catholic Schools enough. I really can't.

I hear you. My parents, as well as my husbands parents, were persona non grata for about as long as they lived. We got it from everywhere, and it hit hard. It is possible that, because of the obstacles, both husband and I were so defiant and eager to persevere.

 

[Linc]

I appreciate the insight. But you didn't respond to the subject matter of the question I posed.

Are you still game to reply to it?

(I do value your opinion)

Well pardon me. :mrgreen: Another silver lining is Parents, some grudgingly, have come around to what Teachers/Instructors teach and manage.

High school students have 6/7 teachers a day, some 4 on block schedule. I’d recommend block to a GROUP of Parent Families. I see hybrid church/private/homeschool.

The Calc guy may have trouble with 4 years of Spanish, German et all, especially AP. I can vouch for second year Chem-is-try and Physics.

I have plenty of other notes. Thanx. Think Amish. Back to Agrarian somewhat. Vacation Learning during the Fall and Spring when Public and Private schools are in session.

 

[Chomsky]

No. I don't.
Perhaps after Ninth or Tenth Grade it may be possible but K to at least Tenth, students are really "learning HOW TO learn" more than anything else.
In my youth, the higher standards would have dictated that was the case for K to Seventh Grade, but based on what my kids used to bring home, it is clear that a Seventh Grade public school education back then IS the equal of a Tenth Grade education today, but that is not the fault of the schools, it's the fault of MASSIVE BUDGET CUTS IN ALMOST EVERYTHING EXCEPT ATHLETICS in our public schools for the last 35 years.

Math, Social Studies, Civics, History, English, Science, Economics, foreign language instruction, even Industrial Arts, Art and Music have all been subjected to a continuing series of budget chopping axes.

Then we followed up with the nonsensical "No Child Left Behind" system of "teaching to the test" which wasted FOUR YEARS of children's lives by training them to take a stupid test every six months rather than actually LEARNING the material.
As a parent of school age kids during that time I saw the bullcrap our kids were bringing home and we began to home school our kids back then, ON TOP of their public school education, and we were able to do that because we engaged our kids, which piqued their curiosity.

But we had an unusual luxury because Karen is a disabled vet who is home all day long and I spent half my work time working from home in my home studio anyway, so we had that luxury of time, which most working Americans DON'T have, except NOW in this pandemic.

But we had to home school because OF Republican destruction of public schools. Our kids spent most of their school time IN Texas public schools.
Both of them graduated knowing a ton about Texas History but almost NOTHING about US and World History, because Texas public schools seem to think that only Texas History is important.

So I don't want to hear this crap about "government schools" anymore.
I particularly object to the TERM "government schools" by the way......**** EVERYONE who USES that term.
They're called PUBLIC SCHOOLS."


Again, anyone who uses the term "government schools" can take a long walk off a very short pier.
I am not even interested in debating anyone who uses that term because it's an automatic indicator that the person is an anti-government idiot who can't stand the existence of facts in the first place, and most of the people who like using that term also like things like "Creationism" and they object to things like "critical thinking" being taught in school.

Thanks for the feedback. You're a great streaming consciousness type of writer, though that's not really accurate. You're not steaming consciousness, but rather more of streaming conversant, which comes across as passionate and very authentic. All in my humble opinion, of course!

I really appreciate your reply, because we've all been immersed in the Catholic School system, which were the only good schools back when I lived in the city. I now live in an area that has one of the top public school systems in the country, but I don't know of it experimentally 'cuz the kids all went to Catholic Schools anyway!

But yeah, I've had many people tell me that the public schools in general are not as rigorous & advanced as they were decades ago. I'm not sure if that applies to my district, because it is highly rated & plenty of kids get accepted into selective schools. So, who knows? Average ACT here is just over 28, but it's hard to compare for me personally since the prep schools I'm familiar with also have strong ACTs in that range.

And did you say math was on the chopping block? Math? I find that hard to believe. In fact, that sounds insane. Math is one of the very foundational and determinant subjects (along with English), that will determine your SAT/ACT scores & thereby one's admittance eligibility into higher education!

 

[Chomsky]

I hear you. My parents, as well as my husbands parents, were persona non grata for about as long as they lived. We got it from everywhere, and it hit hard. It is possible that, because of the obstacles, both husband and I were so defiant and eager to persevere.

Hah! Well, we weren't necessarily persona non grata. There was a whole neighborhood of us! :2razz:

 

[ashurbanipal]

So sad watching John Stossel turn into a deranged lunatic.

One thing is true though, if we had a better education system we wouldn't be in this mess. No Trump, Rational Government, and a pandemic that would have been anticipated and planned for so we aren't in this mess.

John Stossel was always a deranged lunatic.

 

[Chomsky]

Well pardon me. :mrgreen: Another silver lining is Parents, some grudgingly, have come around to what Teachers/Instructors teach and manage.

High school students have 6/7 teachers a day, some 4 on block schedule. I’d recommend block to a GROUP of Parent Families. I see hybrid church/private/homeschool.

The Calc guy may have trouble with 4 years of Spanish, German et all, especially AP. I can vouch for second year Chem-is-try and Physics.

I have plenty of other notes. Thanx. Think Amish. Back to Agrarian somewhat. Vacation Learning during the Fall and Spring when Public and Private schools are in session.

Damn, I forgot about the foreign language requirement! How the hell would English speaking parents succeed in 3 years of that? Unless they're Hispanic?

And yeah, no way do I see parents preparing their kids for 4 or 5's on their APs, unless that subject matter is the parents' profession. But even then?

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

Thanks for the feedback. You're a great streaming consciousness type of writer, though that's not really accurate. You're not steaming consciousness, but rather more of streaming conversant, which comes across as passionate and very authentic. All in my humble opinion, of course!

I really appreciate your reply, because we've all been immersed in the Catholic School system, which were the only good schools back when I lived in the city. I now live in an area that has one of the top public school systems in the country, but I don't know of it experimentally 'cuz the kids all went to Catholic Schools anyway!

But yeah, I've had many people tell me that the public schools in general are not as rigorous & advanced as they were decades ago. I'm not sure if that applies to my district, because it is highly rated & plenty of kids get accepted into selective schools. So, who knows? Average ACT here is just over 28, but it's hard to compare for me personally since the prep schools I'm familiar with also have strong ACTs in that range.

And did you say math was on the chopping block? Math? I find that hard to believe. In fact, that sounds insane. Math is one of the very foundational and determinant subjects (along with English), that will determine your SAT/ACT scores & thereby one's admittance eligibility into higher education!

The Catholic or "parochial" school system was damn good back in my day.
I don't know about today but I think it's safe to assume that they're still good.
My oldest brother attended Catholic schools all the way to 12th grade graduation but that was only because at that time, (late-1940's/mid-1950's) the Catholic school was within walking distance, (two blocks!) so it made perfect sense.
Middle brother was a crappy student but he went to Montgomery County Public Schools just like I did.
I did well, very well. I was told I would be allowed to skip from Fourth to Sixth if I wanted but I wanted to stay with my class.
I could have graduated in Eleventh Grade but I screwed up and wound up having to take TWO measly classes a day for Senior Year.
By 11:00 AM I was gone and off to work at Penril Data.

But sorry...if parents want to send their kids to a church school, fine.
Don't expect a dime from taxpayers though.
I am not about to sit back and watch private and parochial schools slurp up money meant for public schools just because some folks have a wild hair up their butt about "government schools".

I am sick of Republicans tearing down public schools and then pointing their finger. They do it to EVERY goddamn public good, EVERY goddamn public service and EVERY goddamn public utility and EVERY goddamn piece of public infrastructure.
It's their game and it's time to bring that game to a screeching halt.

Yes MATH. When's the last time you heard about high school kids taking Calculus?
They don't teach Calculus in High School anymore, or advanced Geometry or Trig, or even Advanced Algebra.

 

[Chomsky]

The Catholic or "parochial" school system was damn good back in my day.
I don't know about today but I think it's safe to assume that they're still good.
My oldest brother attended Catholic schools all the way to 12th grade graduation but that was only because at that time, (late-1940's/mid-1950's) the Catholic school was within walking distance, (two blocks!) so it made perfect sense.
Middle brother was a crappy student but he went to Montgomery County Public Schools just like I did.
I did well, very well. I was told I would be allowed to skip from Fourth to Sixth if I wanted but I wanted to stay with my class.
I could have graduated in Eleventh Grade but I screwed up and wound up having to take TWO measly classes a day for Senior Year.
By 11:00 AM I was gone and off to work at Penril Data.

But sorry...if parents want to send their kids to a church school, fine.
Don't expect a dime from taxpayers though.
I am not about to sit back and watch private and parochial schools slurp up money meant for public schools just because some folks have a wild hair up their butt about "government schools".

I am sick of Republicans tearing down public schools and then pointing their finger. They do it to EVERY goddamn public good, EVERY goddamn public service and EVERY goddamn public utility and EVERY goddamn piece of public infrastructure.
It's their game and it's time to bring that game to a screeching halt.

Yes MATH. When's the last time you heard about high school kids taking Calculus?
They don't teach Calculus in High School anymore, or advanced Geometry or Trig, or even Advanced Algebra.

Whoa! So you were offered a double-promotion? I would have jumped at that! I always hung with the older guys, anyway.

The Catholic High Schools in my city are all generally good, with quite a few that are exceptional. The variance seems to be as to whether they draw primarily from the neighborhood, or if they draw city-wide. The neighborhood Catholic Preps are true prep schools with prep programs, but rather than coming across as exclusive they are more like deluxe neighborhood high schools that happen to be Catholic. Just like all the other preps, they are test-in competitive entrance.

The Catholic Preps that draw city-wide tend to be the more competitive entrance schools, and can also be thought of as more exclusive. They also tend to have a more competitive student body and a more prestigious & connected faculty, along with perhaps more connected families & placement abilities, and often with (much) more substantial endowments. Obviously there's reasons why some of this last group of schools have several thousand competing for several hundred seats, whereas the neighborhood schools are often less selective.

Anyway, during the era you mentioned (pre Vatican II), your brother got a very unique Catholic School experience that you can only relate to if you've experienced it. Does he look back fondly, upon it? I hope so. I loved my Catholic School experience!

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

Whoa! So you were offered a double-promotion? I would have jumped at that! I always hung with the older guys, anyway.

The Catholic High Schools in my city are all generally good, with quite a few that are exceptional. The variance seems to be as to whether they draw primarily from the neighborhood, or if they draw city-wide. The neighborhood Catholic Preps are true prep schools with prep programs, but rather than coming across as exclusive they are more like deluxe neighborhood high schools that happen to be Catholic. Just like all the other preps, they are test-in competitive entrance.

The Catholic Preps that draw city-wide tend to be the more competitive entrance schools, and can also be thought of as more exclusive. They also tend to have a more competitive student body and a more prestigious & connected faculty, along with perhaps more connected families & placement abilities, and often with (much) more substantial endowments. Obviously there's reasons why some of this last group of schools have several thousand competing for several hundred seats, whereas the neighborhood schools are often less selective.

Anyway, during the era you mentioned (pre Vatican II), your brother got a very unique Catholic School experience that you can only relate to if you've experienced it. Does he look back fondly, upon it? I hope so. I loved my Catholic School experience!

No he actually didn't, to be honest. The Jesuit Brothers beat him mercilessly.

 

[Chomsky]

Yes MATH. When's the last time you heard about high school kids taking Calculus? They don't teach Calculus in High School anymore, or advanced Geometry or Trig, or even Advanced Algebra.

I just saw this. Something don't sound right here. These math classes are all available not just in the Catholic Preps, but in my local public school system. The public high school has 5 program groupings (General, College Prep, Advanced Placement, etc.). The grouping determines subject level.

Higher level math is not required to graduate, but it is part of all the groupings besides general, with most students in the advanced groupings. Our kids didn't go public, but we looked at the programs and quite a few of my neighbors kids used the public system.

My kids took math through calculus - for what it's worth. Stats, too.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

I just saw this. Something don't sound right here. These math classes are all available not just in the Catholic Preps, but in my local public school system. The public high school has 5 program groupings (General, College Prep, Advanced Placement, etc.). The grouping determines subject level.

Higher level math is not required to graduate, but it is part of all the groupings besides general, with most students in the advanced groupings. Our kids didn't go public, but we looked at the programs and quite a few of my neighbors kids used the public system.

My kids took math through calculus - for what it's worth. Stats, too.

I can't speak for the Third Coast.
I know that they didn't offer any of that in Texas high schools, unless you were "advanced placement".
Give me a break, calculus and advanced algebra are not "advanced placement" by the time you hit Junior Year.
I mean, apparently they are NOW but they didn't use to be.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

So sad watching John Stossel turn into a deranged lunatic.

One thing is true though, if we had a better education system we wouldn't be in this mess. No Trump, Rational Government, and a pandemic that would have been anticipated and planned for so we aren't in this mess.

Stossel is the guy who used to cheat by looking at YOUR paper during the tests.
He is a self admitted crappy student who was sick of school, and now America is listening to him as he "edge-a-mucates" them on everything thanks to his advanced KNOWLEDGE.

Again, this is that despicable new American trend where people who "went to duh kollige of hawd knoks" are smarter than people who studied hard and got excellent grades and a degree.

Isaac Asimov put it best DECADES ago as a warning, which few heeded!

“There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.”

 

[The Old Soul]

Who knows what will happen, but there's a good chance many parents will hopefully pull their kids out of useless government schools:

Putting productive and counterproductive academics aside, probably the most important thing the classroom schooling environment provides is the development of social skills. Unless a person is a forest ranger on lifelong fire-tower duty, the most valuable asset to insure a successful career and life in general is the ability to act and react effectively with any and all others in social situations. How to cope with the outside world can only be learned by experience, not from a book; sort of like swimming or riding a bike.

 

[maxparrish]

Who knows what will happen, but there's a good chance many parents will hopefully pull their kids out of useless government schools:

And another good result is that it jammed up immigration work, delaying the hordes seeking legalization.

 

[Chomsky]

I can't speak for the Third Coast.
I know that they didn't offer any of that in Texas high schools, unless you were "advanced placement".
Give me a break, calculus and advanced algebra are not "advanced placement" by the time you hit Junior Year.
I mean, apparently they are NOW but they didn't use to be.

Well, whether the high school kids get Calculus is essentially determined by the feeder schools, at least as I'm familiar with in the Catholic system. With math being generally sequential, the kid gets four years to advance from where he started. So if he comes in at a moderate level from grammar school, he won't get to the higher levels in high school. There are exceptions for those kids who are at the top of their class and can get an instructor to sign-off on bumping them up. But generally speaking, their math progression is set from where they enter. Which is kinda' tough, in that kids need to compete at the young age of grammar school. But it's (sadly) true!

 

[AmNat]

Putting productive and counterproductive academics aside, probably the most important thing the classroom schooling environment provides is the development of social skills. Unless a person is a forest ranger on lifelong fire-tower duty, the most valuable asset to insure a successful career and life in general is the ability to act and react effectively with any and all others in social situations. How to cope with the outside world can only be learned by experience, not from a book; sort of like swimming or riding a bike.

Just imagine all those poor kids who lived before public schools existed, and apparently never socialized with anyone outside of their immediate family.

 

[Luther]

Who knows what will happen, but there's a good chance many parents will hopefully pull their kids out of useless government schools:

Yep, I thought of the same thing

 

[Chomsky]

No he actually didn't, to be honest. The Jesuit Brothers beat him mercilessly.

Oh, geez. I'm kinda' sorry I asked. The Jesuit schools here are considered to be the amongst the best of the lot. But I'm hearing from some on DP with bad experiences. It really does sadden me, because I feel my experience with the Catholic School system was very positive. Ditto for my kids, as far as they claim & I see.