On the matter of Men, Manliness, Norms and Expectations... wall-o-text warning..

[Goshin]

OK, you raise a lot of points here, most of which I consider either invalid or misguided. I won't get into them all, and I'll try not to be condescending.



I grew up in Monterey County, CA, in and around Big Sur and Carmel.

That might account for a lot of our different perceptions of various decades.

Men and women ARE different. Everything you've referenced has nothing to do with that fact.

You don't think anything I talked about is in any way different for most men vs most women? At all?

I don't mean in the broad strokes; as I freely admitted most of it could be applied to either gender. However, the genders are not the same and things don't always apply exactly the same to both.


Perhaps I didn't explain my meaning as well as I'd hoped.

 

[Goshin]

I'm sorry, this is a bit long winded. And it really focuses on one theme. "How will younger people define themselves as a man?" I am a person of this ashe group and I define myself as a man based on my penis and testicles existing and being an adult human. A man is an adult human male. That's all it ever was.

The better question is how do we define masculinity? To wit I answer, likely differently than you do. That's what happens as life continues things change. And yes those changes bring with them issues that need to be resolved, that is nothing new either. If you feel you are out of touch with younger people, it's likely because you're focusing on the issues they face verses the people who are facing them. You may not be able to cope with defining masculinity for yourself, or not needing such labels. And you don't have to. The younger people do, and they are just as capable at adapring and over coming as your generation was facing it's issues. It's really going to be okay. They'll be just fine. And the little kids in school today will face issues I never did, and they'll be okay too.

Fyi there is nothing wrong with being old fashioned. It's important to talk to younger people, even if we say you ate long winded, to get perspective and to give it. But think back to the 60s. There were defiantly good things about it. But there were terrible things about it too. Same could be said for 2017 or 1924 or 1706 or any year you pick. There hasn't been any plagues or devastating droughts, so I think it's pretty good.

Ok.

Couple things...

I wasn't necessarily saying any particular decade was ideal or preferred, or better than now.

I'm GLAD gender roles and expectations are not as rigid as they were in the 50s and early 60s. They were too rigid IMO and badly needed to loosen up.

Like a lot of things, I think we went from "too rigid" to "too loose" over the intervening decades IMO.


Having the twig and berries just makes one biologically male; being a capital-M Man is more than that. At least to my thinking, perhaps semantics is a problem in my attempt to communicate about this. And while "being a decent human being who is worth something other than door stop" applies to anyone of any gender, deciding as a society or an individual what makes a man a man (as opposed to merely male), is a bit different. If you don't see it that way I'm not sure what else to say in explanation.

 

[CLAX1911]

Sorry, in Michigan you can afford $600 for a one bedroom apt. in a decent neighborhood, $400 for food, transportation and gas (drive a beater), and $250 for utilities including a basic phone and car insurance working at a temp job making $325 per week. Thing is, many kids nowadays can't stand to be seen in a beater or with a basic phone or don't want to invite their friends over to a $600/mo. apt..

$1250.00 expenses with $1400.00 income? That's great as long as your car doesn't break down. And if your apartment diesnt raise the rent in the next year which they always seem to do. And if that is how you want to live for the rest of your life.

A lot of poeple stay at home and go to college because they want more than the minimum existence of a single person living paycheck to paycheck until the day they die.

I have one friend he and his wife and their son live with family while they are trying to pay off debt and save for a house. Just because you didn't have that oppertunity or you wanted to prove to the world that you're an independent person doesn't mean they shouldn't take that opportunity.

 

[Goshin]

I have been punched by two women in my lifetime. Well, slapped/pushed/kinda punched, but you get the idea. The thing is, while it hurt (I was in the military at the time, and so were they in both instances), there wasn't the same immediate reaction from everyone else as if I had hit a guy way bigger than me. There was no, "oh, you're going to get it" directed at the females like there would have been at me for hitting a much larger dude.

I was totally confused, because "be a man" means "take care of your own". So, let's say a man assaulted my wife... even the most die-hard feminist is going to recognize the protection instinct and not fault me for engaging. But what if one of those military women assaulted my wife? Do I need to end that fight like I would with another man? So, both times this hapoened, the back of my brain was firing "PROTECT PROTECT PROTECT" but the front was all, "um, I can't hit this one...?" I just stood there. Both times. Didn't even say a word (probably couldn't the second time, she caught me right in the lip).

My sympathies. As I've mentioned I was physically assaulted many times by my 95-pound (ex) wife, and she got away with it for quite some time because my brain short circuited between "defend self" and "don't hit a woman". It eventually ended in my favor but while it was going on it sucked big time.

It ought to go without saying that nobody should be hitting anybody, including women should not be hitting men and thinking they'll get a free pass. However, back to those differences that have been brought up... if 130 lb Average Jane and 175 lb Average Joe trade punches it is usually not going to go well for Jane. If Joe works on the loading dock and regularly lifts 300 pound steel doorsets off the truck every day, Jane could get seriously or critically damaged trading ONE punch.

This suggests that Joe needs to exercise more restraint, even though Jane shouldn't be hitting him in the first place, since her punch might split his lip and his return serve might shatter her jaw or crack her skull. The problem with that of course is that the self-restraint of men seems to encourage some women to initiate violence and expect that free pass. I'm not sure what the solution is, other than "nobody needs to be hitting anybody" (except in defense of self or others of course).

And if Jane picks up a pipe wrench or a butcher knife the metaphorical gloves come off of course.

 

[CLAX1911]

Ok.

Couple things...

I wasn't necessarily saying any particular decade was ideal or preferred, or better than now.

I'm GLAD gender roles and expectations are not as rigid as they were in the 50s and early 60s. They were too rigid IMO and badly needed to loosen up.

Like a lot of things, I think we went from "too rigid" to "too loose" over the intervening decades IMO.

Meh, if it's biologically defined it can't be too loose.

Having the twig and berries just makes one biologically male; being a capital-M Man is more than that.

A man is an adult male human. That's it. That's all it ever was and that is all it will ever be.

At least to my thinking, perhaps semantics is a problem in my attempt to communicate about this.

Maybe this is part of the problem. Telling people to "be a man" is really meaningless. I am a man regardless of my personality interests or commitment to my duties. I'm not a frog or a potato. Be tougher, grow a thicker skin, work hard, so forth, those things apply to everyone and they don't make anybody a man.

And while "being a decent human being who is worth something other than door stop" applies to anyone of any gender, deciding as a society or an individual what makes a man a man (as opposed to merely male), is a bit different.

What if society decides what makes a man a man is being a male adult human? It seems like that is where we are now. And if the individual definition is important than show me how men that stay at home and nurture children have the wrong definition. Explain to me how any definition is wrong.

If you don't see it that way I'm not sure what else to say in explanation.

My perspective won't match up with yours, I'm 35 and I'm a gay man. So if we can't discuss this because I don't share your perspective, why write the OP?

If it's your way or the highway why even talk about it? I'm not trying to change your mind I'm expressing a different perspective, maybe not much different from yours. I don't view my way of being a manly man as the only way. There are also ladies men. Some will tell me that is very masculine. It's different from me, I tend to be a man's man in that I like to hunt and fish fix my own car, build things sharpen knives and reload ammo. Which one of us is more of a man? A guy that wants to smell good and look good for the ladies, or the guy that cuts his finger nails with his teeth but knows how to change a water pump?

 

[Goshin]

...


A man is an adult male human. That's it. That's all it ever was and that is all it will ever be.

Maybe this is part of the problem. Telling people to "be a man" is really meaningless.

Actually that is definitely, absolutely NOT "all it ever was".

It used to mean more, and that it apparently doesn't now is part of the problem I'm talking about.

 

[CLAX1911]

Actually that is definitely, absolutely NOT "all it ever was".

It used to mean more

Like what?

and that it apparently doesn't now is part of the problem I'm talking about.

Is it a problem? If so why? You haven't even explained what a "capital M Man" is. Can you? What extra makes an adult male a man? Can you define it? Can you even articulate it?

 

[JC Callender]

$1250.00 expenses with $1400.00 income? That's great as long as your car doesn't break down. And if your apartment diesnt raise the rent in the next year which they always seem to do. And if that is how you want to live for the rest of your life.

Well if you save that extra $150, you'll have $900 in 6 months, which should cover most repairs. Or you can get a night job as a waiter. There are plenty of people who don't come from rich parents who join the military to pay for school and there are plenty of people who go into business for themselves. Or they prove that they're awesome workers and move up the ladder that way. Sad that you think a degree is the only way to advance from earning $350/wk.

A lot of poeple stay at home and go to college because they want more than the minimum existence of a single person living paycheck to paycheck until the day they die.

I have one friend he and his wife and their son live with family while they are trying to pay off debt and save for a house. Just because you didn't have that oppertunity or you wanted to prove to the world that you're an independent person doesn't mean they shouldn't take that opportunity.

I had a friend who worked 3 part time jobs while going through school and lived in an apt. with a roommate. She got her degree and saved before she got married. Does that sound impossible to you?

 

[CLAX1911]

Well if you save that extra $150, you'll have $900 in 6 months, which should cover most repairs.

You ever own an old piece of ****? 600 dollars? You're way out of touch.

Or you can get a night job as a waiter.

Or you could live with family.

There are plenty of people who don't come from rich parents who join the military to pay for school and there are plenty of people who go into business for themselves.

There are a lot of poeple the military won't take. You are talking to one of them. I tried. Some people, I'd say most that go into business for them selves aren't successful.

Or they prove that they're awesome workers and move up the ladder that way.

In my experience you have to move to other companies to climb the latter. That business of working for the same company for 35 years is a thing of the past.

Sad that you think a degree is the only way to advance from earning $350/wk.

It helps.

I had a friend who worked 3 part time jobs while going through school and lived in an apt. with a roommate. She got her degree and saved before she got married. Does that sound impossible to you?

No, I have friends that stayed with their parents and got an education saved money got married and so forth. What's wrong with that?

 

[Gonzo Rodeo]

The problem with that of course is that the self-restraint of men seems to encourage some women to initiate violence and expect that free pass.

That. Right there.

Granted, the punches are different, but the absence of one seems to encourage the other.

 

[RAMOSS]

$1250.00 expenses with $1400.00 income? That's great as long as your car doesn't break down. And if your apartment diesnt raise the rent in the next year which they always seem to do. And if that is how you want to live for the rest of your life.

A lot of poeple stay at home and go to college because they want more than the minimum existence of a single person living paycheck to paycheck until the day they die.

I have one friend he and his wife and their son live with family while they are trying to pay off debt and save for a house. Just because you didn't have that oppertunity or you wanted to prove to the world that you're an independent person doesn't mean they shouldn't take that opportunity.

That also doesn't take into account the need for clothes, (although salvation army and goodwill can be useful), and unexpected medical expenses.

 

[faithful_servant]

Why do these values have to be assigned to a specific gender?

Because men and women are different. they think differently, act differently, behave differently. There are attributes that a man can model well that a woman can't and attributes that a woman can model well and a man can't. Yes, you can find exceptions, but they are just that - exceptions.

 

[JC Callender]

You ever own an old piece of ****? 600 dollars? You're way out of touch. Or you could live with family. There are a lot of poeple the military won't take. You are talking to one of them. I tried. Some people, I'd say most that go into business for them selves aren't successful.

In my experience you have to move to other companies to climb the latter. That business of working for the same company for 35 years is a thing of the past.

It helps.



No, I have friends that stayed with their parents and got an education saved money got married and so forth. What's wrong with that?

I've owned junkers for years. I actually walked to and from work for a couple of months to save up for one because I didn't want to take out a loan. Being a small business owner and having to wait for gradual success, I can afford a new truck and to live in a nice neighborhood now, but I had to make sacrifices. Btw, I don't have a problem with someone staying at home for whatever reason, my argument is that just about any able bodied person can live outside of their parents house even in a crappy economy.

 

[CLAX1911]

I've owned junkers for years.

When was the last time you had a car repaired?

I actually walked to and from work for a couple of months to save up for one because I didn't want to take out a loan.

That's great if you live in walking distance of work.

Being a small business owner and having to wait for gradual success, I can afford a new truck and to live in a nice neighborhood now, but I had to make sacrifices.

Likely taking on a lot of debt

Btw, I don't have a problem with someone staying at home for whatever reason, my argument is that just about any able bodied person can definitely live outside of their parents house even in a crappy economy.

I didn't argue that they couldn't, it just may be a better idea to stay home go to school and save money if you can. I imagine that's why people do it.

 

[calamity]

Now, about standards...


I don't think we need to get hung up on little things, images or symbolic stuff. Ok maybe Junior dresses really different than anything you'd be comfortable with, and you don't much like that he has five hoops in each ear.

Ok, but that's shallow stuff. Let's talk about the really important things.


Honor and responsibility. Whatever the era, Being A Man is absolutely about being responsible; saying what you mean and meaning what you say; owning your **** and fixing your mess; fulfilling your commitments to others; being honest in your relationships and friendships; not stabbing people in the back who trusted you.


This is just a baseline; the details can vary but to me this is The Minimum Standard Of Manliness.


Some more...

Don't be a bully. You want to fight, pick on someone in your weight class.

You can be as sensitive and open as you want, when circumstances allow... but when it is time to Man Up and Deal With ****, you do what has to be done.

You can love art galleries and fine clothes and lattes all you want, but when the sink breaks you need to do something about it: either fix it or get The Man there pronto, if you want to keep your family's respect.

I was raised old school. So, for me it's a given that I will be a provider, remain calm regardless the situation and face all the music as stoically as possible. So, in my universe mooching off of women, panicking when shtf or crying about the spilled milk is just not in the cards.

 

[JC Callender]

When was the last time you had a car repaired? That's great if you live in walking distance of work. Likely taking on a lot of debt I didn't argue that they couldn't, it just may be a better idea to stay home go to school and save money if you can. I imagine that's why people do it.

A little over a year ago my F250 shot a spark plug out of the engine for the 3rd time. The first shop I went to wanted to charge me over $1,000 to fix it, as they felt they had to take apart the engine. After doing a bunch of research, as frugal people often do, I found a place that could fix it for $275. Most problems I've fixed myself. If one maintains their car well, there's a good chance of avoiding major problems.

And I have no business related debt.

 

[Goshin]

Like what? Is it a problem? If so why? You haven't even explained what a "capital M Man" is. Can you? What extra makes an adult male a man? Can you define it? Can you even articulate it?

I already did.

 

[Goshin]

That. Right there.

Granted, the punches are different, but the absence of one seems to encourage the other.

Well, I'mma tell you what I did, regarding my abusive (ex) spouse.

Came the day I decided that fixing our marriage was impossible (takes two), I made a plan.

She was mad, there were witnesses; I said something I knew would set her off and she started punching me. I put my hands in my lap, tucked my chin and said "Let me know when you're done," which really made her mad. She hit me about twenty times, finally managed to leave a mark. I took pics, called cops w/ pics and witness, had her arrested.

Had her convicted of CDV. Went to divorce court armed with that and other things; came out with custody of everything I cared about.


Living well is the best revenge.

 

[CLAX1911]

I already did.

I guess I didn't see it. Could you tell me which post it's in?

 

[Goshin]

I've owned junkers for years. I actually walked to and from work for a couple of months to save up for one because I didn't want to take out a loan. Being a small business owner and having to wait for gradual success, I can afford a new truck and to live in a nice neighborhood now, but I had to make sacrifices. Btw, I don't have a problem with someone staying at home for whatever reason, my argument is that just about any able bodied person can live outside of their parents house even in a crappy economy.

Well I went thru that with Niece#2 recently, as I've been helping her get back on her feet after a bad marriage. She bought two $600-800 cars in succession, neither lasted 6 months before breaking down beyond reasonable repair.

I never buy new cars, you lose 30% of value when you drive off the lot. But, as I told her, there's a HUGE diff between a 800 dollar junker and a carefully selected 2k-4k used vehicle bought from a single owner. That's what I have and it is almost like new and gives me no problems.

She finally got a used $1500 Toyota (they tend to last longer with less problems) that is working well and she's expanding her cleaning-and-caretaker biz.

 

[CLAX1911]

A little over a year ago my F250 shot a spark plug out of the engine for the 3rd time. The first shop I went to wanted to charge me over $1,000 to fix it, as they felt they had to take apart the engine. After doing a bunch of research, as frugal people often do, I found a place that could fix it for $275. Most problems I've fixed myself. If one maintains their car well, there's a good chance of avoiding major problems.

And I have no business related debt.

You couldn't fix a spark plug? That's an easy repair. Further if you're blowing spark plugs out that often you have a deeper issue. Assuming you paid 275 each time you have spent 750 on it and likely will again. If you don't find out why it's blowing spark plugs out you aren't really maintaining your vehicle and you'll likely have a short block rebuild in your future, get ready to shell out 4 grand for that.

I had a 22 year old ford that had 350k on it never blew out a spark plug. What in the hell did you do to that truck?

It's great that you dint have any business debt. But most people don't have money to start a business.

 

[Goshin]

I guess I didn't see it. Could you tell me which post it's in?

#3 and the last few lines of #2 are relevant, mainly.


For me the example I gave in #13 is my personal gold standard.

 

[CLAX1911]

#3 and the last few lines of #2 are relevant, mainly.


For me the example I gave in #13 is my personal gold standard.

Um, okay, basically you said take responsibility for your actions and don't be a backstabber.that's parameters of being a decent human being. We should expect that from all people and not just men. Further that still stands as the ideal of a decent human being. So I guess I'm not understanding the problem involving manliness.

I think I could give you a better example of being a Man with a capital M. It's being able to take blows that knock you off your feet and stand back up and try again. It's understanding that pain is a fact of life and if you don't give in it will relent. It's taking on responsibility because nobody else will. It's defending the weak frail and infirm. It's losing everything and walking away to start from scratch again.

Now just being responsible for your own mess is simply how not to be a burden. Willingness to help others clean up theirs when the need is there is beyond simply not being a burden. Not complaining about your struggles but asking advise from those with more wisdom to solve them yourself, and learning from them. Being afraid but not being dissuaded by fear from doing what is right.

That to me is how you become a manly man. And I'm a degenerate homo millennial. The company I keep is largely other millennials and they all feel this way. I've come across childish men in my generation who's only concern is for their next orgasm or loss of sobriety, but I've come across them in generating X, the baby boomers and even the one before them. I don't think the questioning of gender roles is the cause of it. I think it's the concept of outrageous people tend to get the most press because watching normal people is boring.

 

[Goshin]

Um, okay, basically you said take responsibility for your actions and don't be a backstabber.that's parameters of being a decent human being. We should expect that from all people and not just men. Further that still stands as the ideal of a decent human being. So I guess I'm not understanding the problem involving manliness.

I think I could give you a better example of being a Man with a capital M. It's being able to take blows that knock you off your feet and stand back up and try again. It's understanding that pain is a fact of life and if you don't give in it will relent. It's taking on responsibility because nobody else will. It's defending the weak frail and infirm. It's losing everything and walking away to start from scratch again.

Now just being responsible for your own mess is simply how not to be a burden. Willingness to help others clean up theirs when the need is there is beyond simply not being a burden. Not complaining about your struggles but asking advise from those with more wisdom to solve them yourself, and learning from them. Being afraid but not being dissuaded by fear from doing what is right.

That to me is how you become a manly man. And I'm a degenerate homo millennial. The company I keep is largely other millennials and they all feel this way. I've come across childish men in my generation who's only concern is for their next orgasm or loss of sobriety, but I've come across them in generating X, the baby boomers and even the one before them. I don't think the questioning of gender roles is the cause of it. I think it's the concept of outrageous people tend to get the most press because watching normal people is boring.

I already wrote three or four walls-o-text, you expect me to cover EVERYTHING?

 

[JC Callender]

You couldn't fix a spark plug? That's an easy repair. Further if you're blowing spark plugs out that often you have a deeper issue. Assuming you paid 275 each time you have spent 750 on it and likely will again. If you don't find out why it's blowing spark plugs out you aren't really maintaining your vehicle and you'll likely have a short block rebuild in your future, get ready to shell out 4 grand for that.

I had a 22 year old ford that had 350k on it never blew out a spark plug. What in the hell did you do to that truck?

It's great that you dint have any business debt. But most people don't have money to start a business.

You have to purchase a kit and use the drill in the kit to carefully drill a slightly wider hole, then put a new insert in. I didn't trust myself, as one false move making the new hole and I may need a new engine, or at least a new head. The F250's and I think Explorers from the earlier 2,000's have this issue...they made an error when manufacturing the heads. I think I only had about 150,000 on it, and it was a nice looking Super Duty. The shop I took it too did 2 separate inserts and one came out again, so they told me they wouldn't install anymore since they all failed within about 6 months and that I would need a new engine if it happened again. They would've installed a new head but thought that it probably wouldn't work well with an older engine. But yeah, very aggravating getting rid of such a cool truck because someone screwed up the head design and Ford won't fess up to it. I did have an F250 before that that was ugly as hell...it only cost me $500 and I had to buy it because I got nailed by a Sherwin Williams truck running a red light that totaled my truck and I didn't have full coverage and they were only obligated to pay $1,000 under Michigan law. Once again, didn't want to go into debt, so drove the junker until I had enough saved for the Super Duty. Once the SD went though, I could afford a new truck payment, so now I have a 2015 F150.

Regarding start up costs, I initially went into residential landscaping, which was mainly maintenance other than lawn cutting. Trimming, weeding, mulching, planting, etc....so there wasn't much startup cost. I remembered borrowing a shovel from someone for one of my first jobs :lol:. I purchased cheaper stuff at first and got into the high end trimmers and things later. I know most startups do require more money, but this was my experience.

Btw, not to derail this thread too much, but if you or anyone else reading this ever have problems with Ford trucks in the future, this is a great forum to ask questions and hopefully find answers: Ford Truck Enthusiasts Forums - Ford truck and SUV owners and enthusiasts Community And Information Source.