Obama Proved Last Night who benefits from Government spending

[haymarket]

using the tax system to try to remedy all the perceived inequalities in society is a piss poor idea

Has anyone here suggested that be done? I have not seen it.

 

[TurtleDude]

You're free to trade places with them. Go for it.

that's rather silly

 

[TurtleDude]

No one has suggested doing that. So, once again, you're off on the hyperbolic strawman stereotype path.

MOre horsepoop those who constantly whine that the rich need to pay even more than 40% of the income tax burden when they make only 22% of the income see the tax system as a way of getting things even

 

[Boo Radley]

MOre horsepoop those who constantly whine that the rich need to pay even more than 40% of the income tax burden when they make only 22% of the income see the tax system as a way of getting things even

Nope, you're wrong again. Let me answer this one last time, a serious effort to reduce the debt must include boht spending cuts and tax increases. It's merely being honest and practical. Save the hyperbolic strawman sterotypes for your friends.

 

[haymarket]

MOre horsepoop those who constantly whine that the rich need to pay even more than 40% of the income tax burden when they make only 22% of the income see the tax system as a way of getting things even

This is NOT about getting even. It is about a sound and viable tax policy for the nation which permits us to pay our bills and provide government for the American people. The tax rates for the wealthy are the lowest now than they have been in at least five decades. The wealthy have done far better than any other segment of the populace in the last ten years. There is nothing wrong with connecting the dots between those two facts and asking them to pay a bit more. I am on record as advocating that ALL pay more including those who now pay nothing. I have nobody to get even with.

 

[Flyersfan314]

We could still tax the rich more and not change their lifestyle. When lifestyles start to change because of a high tax rate then liberties are being taken.

 

[TurtleDude]

Nope, you're wrong again. Let me answer this one last time, a serious effort to reduce the debt must include boht spending cuts and tax increases. It's merely being honest and practical. Save the hyperbolic strawman sterotypes for your friends.

how is taxing just the rich a serious effort to reduce the debt? its just an excuse for the dems to spend more money

why should anyone pay more taxes-especially the one group that actually pays a higher share of the tax burden than their share of the income UNTIL the government can prove it can make massive huge cuts

 

[Boo Radley]

how is taxing just the rich a serious effort to reduce the debt? its just an excuse for the dems to spend more money

why should anyone pay more taxes-especially the one group that actually pays a higher share of the tax burden than their share of the income UNTIL the government can prove it can make massive huge cuts

It's not a complicated proposition. Reduce expenditures and increase revenue allows you to handle a debt situation much more effectively than doing just one or the other.

And painting the wealthy as victims is just silly, it really is.

 

[TurtleDude]

We could still tax the rich more and not change their lifestyle. When lifestyles start to change because of a high tax rate then liberties are being taken.

unless you are rich you really cannot say that. plenty of people in the top 2%-especially those who have mainly dividend incomes would have huge lifestyle changes if their taxes went from 15% on most of their income to 40%

if those who pay no taxes were taxed maybe they wouldn't support big spending politicians

that is the only way we get the deficit under control-making those who promise more spending unpopular with the voters. taxing the rich more only encourages everyone else to keep demanding more spending

 

[TurtleDude]

It's not a complicated proposition. Reduce expenditures and increase revenue allows you to handle a debt situation much more effectively than doing just one or the other.

And painting the wealthy as victims is just silly, it really is.

I want the politicians to prove they are serious about reducing spending before anyone feed the irresponsible beast any more money

and people like you need to pay more before people like I do

 

[haymarket]

unless you are rich you really cannot say that. plenty of people in the top 2%-especially those who have mainly dividend incomes would have huge lifestyle changes if their taxes went from 15% on most of their income to 40%

if those who pay no taxes were taxed maybe they wouldn't support big spending politicians

that is the only way we get the deficit under control-making those who promise more spending unpopular with the voters. taxing the rich more only encourages everyone else to keep demanding more spending

Sure he can - he is an American citizen entitled to an opinion on tax policy just like anyone else including you and I.

Again, you make assertions but fail to support it with anything but your own assertions. What evidence do you have that the spending you object to is unpopular with voters given that their current percentage of taxation compared to income is hardly any different than that of the rich?

Do you want the poor or average persons to actually pay a larger percentage of their income on taxes than the rich do? For that is what you seem to be advocating.

 

[Boo Radley]

I want the politicians to prove they are serious about reducing spending before anyone feed the irresponsible beast any more money

and people like you need to pay more before people like I do

There is no logical reason you can't get both at the same time. BTW, do you know how much I make or how much I pay?We can anything on the internet, but let's just agree you don't really know.

So, stop being silly.

 

[TurtleDude]

Sure he can - he is an American citizen entitled to an opinion on tax policy just like anyone else including you and I.

Again, you make assertions but fail to support it with anything but your own assertions. What evidence do you have that the spending you object to is unpopular with voters given that their current percentage of taxation compared to income is hardly any different than that of the rich?

Do you want the poor or average persons to actually pay a larger percentage of their income on taxes than the rich do? For that is what you seem to be advocating.

the poor do not pay anywhere near the same rates federally

I have no problem with the poor paying use taxes at the same rates as others-such as things as dog licenses, car registrations, hunting permits, excise taxes on spirits and firearms etc. property taxes, gasoline taxes etc are progressive in the sense the more valuable your property or the more you drive the more you pay which is a just way of apportioning taxes.

same with sales and sin taxes the more you consume the more taxes you pay

I oppose progressive rates of income taxes because of the power it gives congress and the obvious abuse it promotes

 

[TurtleDude]

There is no logical reason you can't get both at the same time. BTW, do you know how much I make or how much I pay?We can anything on the internet, but let's just agree you don't really know.

So, stop being silly.

Your trust in the government is touching but until they actually prove they can make massive cuts, the pimps in office should get absolutely no more taxes from anyone, least of all those who already pay too much compared to their share of the income and what they use

 

[TurtleDude]

There is no logical reason you can't get both at the same time. BTW, do you know how much I make or how much I pay?We can anything on the internet, but let's just agree you don't really know.

So, stop being silly.

give me a ball park figure-I doubt you pay 300K in income taxes

 

[haymarket]

from Turtle

The poor do not pay anywhere near the same rates federally

And that is important......... why exactly? In point of fact, the poor ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO PAY THE SAME RATES FEDERALLY.

I have no problem with the poor paying use taxes at the same rates as others-such as things as dog licenses, car registrations, hunting permits, excise taxes on spirits and firearms etc. property taxes, gasoline taxes etc are progressive in the sense the more valuable your property or the more you drive the more you pay which is a just way of apportioning taxes.

Baloney. Do you drive ten times as much as an average person who makes 1/10 of what you do? If the average person drives 20,000 miles per year, do you then drive 200,000 miles per year?

same with sales and sin taxes the more you consume the more taxes you pay

You are missing the point that the percentage of tax they pay for such things is far greater than the percentage of tax you pay for the same average consumption.

I oppose progressive rates of income taxes because of the power it gives congress and the obvious abuse it promotes

Fine. But we had this debate a full century ago and the nation went the other way on it. And you have not shown any "OBVIOUS ABUSE" and i would welcome your data and evidence on that allegation.

 

[TurtleDude]

the poor should pay the same rates on federal income as the rich. then they couldn't be seduced into voting for those who claim all they want will be paid for by jacking up the taxes on "the rich"

if we had a flat tax do you think government would be near as big as it is now?

 

[haymarket]

the poor should pay the same rates on federal income as the rich. then they couldn't be seduced into voting for those who claim all they want will be paid for by jacking up the taxes on "the rich"

if we had a flat tax do you think government would be near as big as it is now?

We had that debate a full century ago and your position was soundly rejected and has been every year since that time.

 

[Flyersfan314]

unless you are rich you really cannot say that. plenty of people in the top 2%-especially those who have mainly dividend incomes would have huge lifestyle changes if their taxes went from 15% on most of their income to 40%

if those who pay no taxes were taxed maybe they wouldn't support big spending politicians

that is the only way we get the deficit under control-making those who promise more spending unpopular with the voters. taxing the rich more only encourages everyone else to keep demanding more spending

Woah! I am NOT proposing a 40% effective tax rate. You make a good point that everyone is different in their income but this would not be an over night change. People would have time to change their investments like they do frequently as the economy changes.

Damn right we need to cut spending. Means testing for SS and other entitlements is the first step.

 

[Boo Radley]

give me a ball park figure-I doubt you pay 300K in income taxes

Whether you or I do or don't can't reasonably be proven here. Nor does it matter to your comment.

 

[sangha]

Do we really need another "Life isn't fair for rich people!" thread? We get it dude.

11 likes! That's the most I've seen so far :lol:

 

[sangha]

the poor should pay the same rates on federal income as the rich. then they couldn't be seduced into voting for those who claim all they want will be paid for by jacking up the taxes on "the rich"

if we had a flat tax do you think government would be near as big as it is now?

the wealthy want a weak govt because they know it's the only thing stopping them from taking everything

 

[Boo Radley]

Your trust in the government is touching but until they actually prove they can make massive cuts, the pimps in office should get absolutely no more taxes from anyone, least of all those who already pay too much compared to their share of the income and what they use

Again, you make leaps and make fallacious arguments. No one said they trusted the government. When you stop arguing with strawmen and being hyperbolic, we might be able to gain some ground.

 

[TurtleDude]

the wealthy want a weak govt because they know it's the only thing stopping them from taking everything

psychobabble

 

[TurtleDude]

Again, you make leaps and make fallacious arguments. No one said they trusted the government. When you stop arguing with strawmen and being hyperbolic, we might be able to gain some ground.

sure you do-you are one of the most vocal proponents of more government on this board-guns, taxes etc you want MORE government