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NYT: Trump’s Trade War Escalation Will Exact Economic Pain, Adviser Says

I take it you won't be praising Trump's economy given the growth of our debt.

Amirite?

Sent from the Oval Office using Putin's MacBook, and Barr's Wi-Fi password.

Why wouldn't I praise 3.2% GDP growth, 2 trillion added to GDP, 5 million jobs created, record state and local revenue, record charitable contributions? Seems you want to focus on Debt now totally ignoring what caused the deficits to rise,, 7 interest rate hikes and mandatory entitlement spending increases
 
Why wouldn't I praise 3.2% GDP growth, 2 trillion added to GDP, 5 million jobs created, record state and local revenue, record charitable contributions? Seems you want to focus on Debt now totally ignoring what caused the deficits to rise,, 7 interest rate hikes and mandatory entitlement spending increases
Our debt is now larger than it was when he took office.

How is that good?

Sent from the Oval Office using Putin's MacBook, and Barr's Wi-Fi password.
 
So, given what you've said about China being a "bad actor" doesn't that imply that we either have to tolerated its continuing (and possibly escalating) bad behavior or suck it up and take a few lumps to force them to get more in line with fair trade policies?
Not at all. It means we need to take effective action. The tariffs (which are in short, taxes), that then invite tariffs on our own products, are ineffective actions. The macroeconomic consequences of a tariff should therefore be seen as comparable to the macroeconomic consequences of any tax increase. True, this tax increase is more regressive than, say, a tax on high incomes, or a wealth tax. This means that it falls on people who will be forced to cut their spending, and is therefore likely to have a bigger negative bang per buck than the positive bang for buck from the 2017 tax cut.

All of that bad acting on China's part was handled in the Trans-Pacific Partnership. Too bad it got torn up somehow.
 
Why wouldn't I praise 3.2% GDP growth, 2 trillion added to GDP, 5 million jobs created, record state and local revenue, record charitable contributions? Seems you want to focus on Debt now totally ignoring what caused the deficits to rise,, 7 interest rate hikes and mandatory entitlement spending increases

You must have loved Obama’s second term.

All that and smaller deficits. A total dream, amirite?
 
NYT logic: Through various means, China, Japan and Europe have made it tough for American products in those countries for decades. Trump gets in and fights back. It's Trump's war because he started it.

Ah, another one who has a zero-sum view of trade that flies in the face of everything we’ve learned over the past two centuries. I've written about China as a bad actor but how, exactly, has Japan and Europe been unfair -- and for decades? We've had essentially free-trade on both sides with Japan and Europe.
 
Not at all. It means we need to take effective action. The tariffs (which are in short, taxes), that then invite tariffs on our own products, are ineffective actions. The macroeconomic consequences of a tariff should therefore be seen as comparable to the macroeconomic consequences of any tax increase. True, this tax increase is more regressive than, say, a tax on high incomes, or a wealth tax. This means that it falls on people who will be forced to cut their spending, and is therefore likely to have a bigger negative bang per buck than the positive bang for buck from the 2017 tax cut.

All of that bad acting on China's part was handled in the Trans-Pacific Partnership. Too bad it got torn up somehow.
Tariff is only a tax IF we continue to purchase Chinese goods. As I recall TPP also had a lot of environment obligations that would weigh heavier on us than some of the other partners.
 
Yes, demand always plays a role in housing costs and is alleviated by supply, build them and they will come but you are in denial that the high costs of regulations, taxes,, local not in my neighborhood policies and long permitting process affects supply and builders.

I understand why you want to defend California but all you are doing is destroying your own credibility which obviously doesn't mean much to you. I always loved visiting SF but not any more as your city is a disaster due to the homeless and radicals running the city. Sorry but that is reality and it exists throughout the coast of California. Keep staying in denial about the real problem with is Democratic Social engineering, violation of immigration laws, over regulations/taxes and high cost of living which has led to the fiscal disaster that for some reason you want to thrust on the rest of the country by allowing California to elect the President.

Hillary won California by over 4 million votes the largest margin in U.S. history mostly accumulated at the coastal communities of SF, LA, and San Diego. none of this has anything to do with the thread topic but like most liberals you simply want to divert from the actual results being generated. Carry on because I am done with this argument. I have family in California and always loved visiting them but no longer will spend my dollars in your city or in LA. More and more people get it,, when will you? Seems that the economic successes of the state are not trickling down to the poor, the homeless in your state, why is that?

Actually, you just made a good point: None of this has anything to do with the thread topic. I'm not sure how we got off on a tangent about how liberals were ruining California and why on Earth so many people want to come to a ruined state. No, the topic is Trump's trade wars and how they're a threat to a growing economy he inherited from Obama.

Tariffs are just taxes, of course, and a tax tends to discourage what it taxes. Tax income, and people have less incentive to make more money. Tax sales,and people buy less. Tax trade, and there is less trade. So, how is it that taxing trade and reducing it thus is going to help Make America Great Again?
 
Actually, you just made a good point: None of this has anything to do with the thread topic. I'm not sure how we got off on a tangent about how liberals were ruining California and why on Earth so many people want to come to a ruined state. No, the topic is Trump's trade wars and how they're a threat to a growing economy he inherited from Obama.

Tariffs are just taxes, of course, and a tax tends to discourage what it taxes. Tax income, and people have less incentive to make more money. Tax sales,and people buy less. Tax trade, and there is less trade. So, how is it that taxing trade and reducing it thus is going to help Make America Great Again?

Yes, love that liberal math,, notice the growing GDP that Obama left Trump? hmmm, me neither

1. GDP Growth 2013 to 2018

2013 16784.9
2014 17521.7 736.8
2015 18129.3 607.6
2016 18707.2 577.9

736,8 to 607.6 to 577.9 is a growing economy in what world?
 
Our debt is now larger than it was when he took office.

How is that good?

Sent from the Oval Office using Putin's MacBook, and Barr's Wi-Fi password.

Yes it is,, 117 billion dollars more, 65 billion in debt service increases and 50 billion in mandatory entitlement spending, all Trump's fault right?
 
And that is helping the poor and those homeless, HOW?

Ah. So it’s not per capita.

I’m curious.... if you have to lie to support your position, do you ever reflect back on that and question whether your position is solid if you have to be dishonest, or do you just swallow it down and ignore it?
 
Tariff is only a tax IF we continue to purchase Chinese goods. As I recall TPP also had a lot of environment obligations that would weigh heavier on us than some of the other partners.
First, Whatever you heard about TTP's effect on environmental obligations is wrong. The U.S. got a level the playing field by imposing rigorous environmental standards on trading partners, as well as labor standards.

Second, in the short run we can't replace Chinese goods for American goods, since China has a complex supply chain developed over a long time.

Third, our action causes retaliatory tariffs, as our farmers are discovering (and is the current topic here.) Economists from Columbia, Princeton, and the New York Federal Reserve released a paper, “The impact of the 2018 trade war on U.S. prices and welfare,” that used detailed import data to assess the tariffs’ impact. The conclusion: to a first approximation, foreigners paid none of the bill, U.S. companies and consumers paid all of it. And the losses to U.S. consumers exceeded the revenue from the new tariffs, so the tariffs made America poorer overall.

These price hikes led to substantial changes in behavior. Imports of the tariffed items fell sharply, partly because consumers turned to domestic products, but also in large part because importers shifted their sourcing to countries that aren’t currently facing Trump tariffs. For example, a number of companies already seem to have begun buying goods they previously bought from China from Vietnam or Mexico instead.

These changes in behavior are the key to the paper’s conclusion that the tariffs have made America poorer.

Consider the following example: pre-tariff, the U.S. imports some good from China that costs $100. Then the Trump administration imposes a 25% tariff, raising the price to consumers to $125. If we just keep importing that good from China, consumers lose $25 per unit purchased – but the government raises an extra $25 in taxes, leaving overall national income unchanged.

Suppose, however, that importers shift to a more expensive source that isn’t subject to the tariff; suppose, for example, that they can buy the good from Vietnam for $115. Then consumers only lose $15 – but there is no tariff revenue, so that $15 is a loss for the nation as a whole.

But what if they turn to a domestic supplier – say, a U.S. company that will sell the product for $120. How does this change the story?

Here the crucial thing is that producing a good domestically has an opportunity cost. The U.S. is near full employment, so the $120 in resources used to produce that good could and would have been employed producing something else in the absence of the tariff. Diverting them into producing what we used to import means a net loss of $20, with no revenue offset.

Fourth, getting back to TPP, just to remind: TPP was a free-trade agreement that the Obama team forged with Australia, Brunei, Canada, Chile, Japan, Malaysia, Mexico, New Zealand, Peru, Singapore and Vietnam. It was not only the largest free-trade agreement in history, it was the best ever for U.S. workers, closing loopholes Nafta had left open. TPP included restrictions on foreign state-owned enterprises that dumped subsidized products into our markets, intellectual property protections for rising U.S. technologies, like free access for all cloud computing services, but also anti-human-trafficking provisions that prohibited turning guest workers into slave labor, a ban on trafficking in endangered wildlife parts, a requirement that signatories permit their workers to form independent trade unions to collectively bargain and the elimination of all child labor practices, all to level the playing field with American workers.
 
Ah. So it’s not per capita.

I’m curious.... if you have to lie to support your position, do you ever reflect back on that and question whether your position is solid if you have to be dishonest, or do you just swallow it down and ignore it?

Lies what lies, does California lead the nation in poverty, homeless, have among the highest cost of living, and the worst quality of life?
 
Yes, love that liberal math,, notice the growing GDP that Obama left Trump? hmmm, me neither

1. GDP Growth 2013 to 2018

2013 16784.9
2014 17521.7 736.8
2015 18129.3 607.6
2016 18707.2 577.9

736,8 to 607.6 to 577.9 is a growing economy in what world?


The world in which 16784.9 is less than 18707.2 577.9. Shall we compare with growth between 2007 and 2010?

What do you think will happen when Trump's tariffs really take hold?
 
Why wouldn't I praise 3.2% GDP growth...
Because annual GDP growth was never 3.2% under Trump. This is the past five years of annual growth, from the Balance:

[TABLE="class: grid, width: 500, align: center"]
[TR]
[TH]Year [/TH]
[TH]Nominal GDP (trillions)[/TH]
[TH]Real GDP (trillions)[/TH]
[TH]GDP Growth Rate[/TH]
[TH]Events Affecting GDP[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]2014[/TH]
[TD]$17.522[/TD]
[TD]$16.900[/TD]
[TD] 2.5%[/TD]
[TD]QE ends.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]2015[/TH]
[TD]$18.219[/TD]
[TD]$17.387[/TD]
[TD] 2.9%[/TD]
[TD]TPP. Iran deal.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]2016[/TH]
[TD]$18.707[/TD]
[TD]$17.659[/TD]
[TD] 1.6%[/TD]
[TD]Presidential race.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]2017[/TH]
[TD]$19.485[/TD]
[TD]$18.051[/TD]
[TD] 2.2%[/TD]
[TD]Trump Tax Act.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]2018[/TH]
[TD]$20.494[/TD]
[TD]$18.566[/TD]
[TD] 2.9%[/TD]
[TD]Deficit spending.[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
As we can see, GDP growth in 2018 was no better than GDP growth in 2015, without giving away tax revenue to the rich and corporations and without gutting the environment.

Oh, what did you say? You were talking about quarterly growth. Well, under Obama there were quarters that were over 4% and one was 5%.

But this thread is about Trump's tariffs, which are a drag on GDP.
 
First, Whatever you heard about TTP's effect on environmental obligations is wrong. The U.S. got a level the playing field by imposing rigorous environmental standards on trading partners, as well as labor standards.

Second, in the short run we can't replace Chinese goods for American goods, since China has a complex supply chain developed over a long time.

Third, our action causes retaliatory tariffs, as our farmers are discovering (and is the current topic here.) Economists from Columbia, Princeton, and the New York Federal Reserve released a paper, “The impact of the 2018 trade war on U.S. prices and welfare,” that used detailed import data to assess the tariffs’ impact. The conclusion: to a first approximation, foreigners paid none of the bill, U.S. companies and consumers paid all of it. And the losses to U.S. consumers exceeded the revenue from the new tariffs, so the tariffs made America poorer overall.

These price hikes led to substantial changes in behavior. Imports of the tariffed items fell sharply, partly because consumers turned to domestic products, but also in large part because importers shifted their sourcing to countries that aren’t currently facing Trump tariffs. For example, a number of companies already seem to have begun buying goods they previously bought from China from Vietnam or Mexico instead.

These changes in behavior are the key to the paper’s conclusion that the tariffs have made America poorer.

Consider the following example: pre-tariff, the U.S. imports some good from China that costs $100. Then the Trump administration imposes a 25% tariff, raising the price to consumers to $125. If we just keep importing that good from China, consumers lose $25 per unit purchased – but the government raises an extra $25 in taxes, leaving overall national income unchanged.

Suppose, however, that importers shift to a more expensive source that isn’t subject to the tariff; suppose, for example, that they can buy the good from Vietnam for $115. Then consumers only lose $15 – but there is no tariff revenue, so that $15 is a loss for the nation as a whole.

But what if they turn to a domestic supplier – say, a U.S. company that will sell the product for $120. How does this change the story?

Here the crucial thing is that producing a good domestically has an opportunity cost. The U.S. is near full employment, so the $120 in resources used to produce that good could and would have been employed producing something else in the absence of the tariff. Diverting them into producing what we used to import means a net loss of $20, with no revenue offset.

Fourth, getting back to TPP, just to remind: TPP was a free-trade agreement that the Obama team forged with Australia, Brunei, Canada, Chile, Japan, Malaysia, Mexico, New Zealand, Peru, Singapore and Vietnam. It was not only the largest free-trade agreement in history, it was the best ever for U.S. workers, closing loopholes Nafta had left open. TPP included restrictions on foreign state-owned enterprises that dumped subsidized products into our markets, intellectual property protections for rising U.S. technologies, like free access for all cloud computing services, but also anti-human-trafficking provisions that prohibited turning guest workers into slave labor, a ban on trafficking in endangered wildlife parts, a requirement that signatories permit their workers to form independent trade unions to collectively bargain and the elimination of all child labor practices, all to level the playing field with American workers.

Your entire argument assumes that we arent now and havent been damaged by Chinas unfair trade practices and intellectual property theft that led to this trade war. To draw an analogy, it would be the same if you commented only on the painful symptoms of withdrawl of a drug addict attempting to kick the habit and ignored the damage the actual addiction caused.
 
Illiberals carrying water for China - a violently oppressive, criminal state - over the interests of Americans.

Color me totally shocked.
 
Odd. You told me this.. and now you’re asking me?

You have no reference for your claim?
Google is your friend use it but I understand why you have no interest in doing that

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
 
The world in which 16784.9 is less than 18707.2 577.9. Shall we compare with growth between 2007 and 2010?

What do you think will happen when Trump's tariffs really take hold?
Like most liberals you seem to have a problem understanding dollars and $1 this year are less than last year and next year is less than this year that is the kinding GDP growth, yes it is growth but it is declining and not something you want to talk as a new Administration is inheriting

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
 
No as usual what you see is percentage change and not actual dollar growth the higher the base the lower the percentage change that still generates stronger dollars you know it's really getting rather tiresome and boring presenting the same data and facts to people like you only to have them ignored, I think Obama for giving us Donald Trump and I thank Donald Trump for blowing away the Obama economy

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
 
Illiberals carrying water for China - a violently oppressive, criminal state - over the interests of Americans.

Color me totally shocked.

That is exactly what is going on here. LIberals so hate Trump they want China to come out on top in this trade dispute. TDS
 
Google is your friend use it but I understand why you have no interest in doing that

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

You would think you would have used it!

But I understand. Since CA is a blue state, you need to lie as much as possible to support your baseless points.
 
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