Nunes: There Was NO OFFICIAL INTELLIGENCE USED to Start DOJ Spying on Trump[W:895]

[OpportunityCost]

Re: Nunes: There Was NO OFFICIAL INTELLIGENCE USED to Start DOJ Spying on Trump

No, not when he "meets" with a Russian. If you want to have a serious debate, you can describe what's been alleged or suspected with better accuracy - you know better.

And there is a fundamental difference between engaging in wrongdoing, and someone being paid to discover the wrongdoing. It's the difference between drug dealers and police who investigate them. If the former 'colludes' with someone to sell drugs, and the police 'collude' with an informant to discover that, under your theory they're equivalently unethical or illegal acts, but that's BS of course.

I have discussed this endlessly with you. We fundamentally disagree about whether the meeting should have occurred. If presented with possible illegal activity, you can't notify anyone until you have some evidence of it. They took the meeting to get the evidence. Before you ask, the allegation was illegal campaign funding from foreign sources by the Clinton campaign.

I agree, but I'm not aware of anyone in Clinton's campaign directing the FBI's investigation. What you're actually saying is 'wrong' is a campaign discovering possible crimes by the other side, including treason, and turning over their findings to the FBI. By your ethical standards, the candidate finding something out is obligated to keep that to themselves, and if they do go to FBI, FBI is obligated to sit on the information AT LEAST until the campaign ends.

...you absolutely have not been paying attention.

Not really - I'm pointing out that the Trump campaign lied repeatedly at every step about the meetings, how many, who was involved, what they were about. We know this. Now they ask us to believe they lied about all that, but NOT about the serious stuff - the actual "collusion." Well, why would we?

The same can be said of the FBI leadership, can't it?

Great, but it's impossible to investigate all those people in the Trump campaign and not at least in some way investigate Trump. Furthermore, it's like investigating everyone in the mob, including those sitting right under the big guy, and telling investigators - leave the person at the top OUT - he's clueless and can't be involved!



LOL...

It is, because they were under investigation before the campaign with the exception of Papadopoulos. Who no one took seriously. What you want to ignore is the way this was conducted. Get information through an unverified political document unethically, unmask key campaign figures unethically, and leak damaging stories unethically. With political allies acting in their party's interest, there doesn't even need to be a conspiracy, they just act in the interest of damaging the other side.

 

[JasperL]

Re: Nunes: There Was NO OFFICIAL INTELLIGENCE USED to Start DOJ Spying on Trump

I have discussed this endlessly with you. We fundamentally disagree about whether the meeting should have occurred. If presented with possible illegal activity, you can't notify anyone until you have some evidence of it. They took the meeting to get the evidence. Before you ask, the allegation was illegal campaign funding from foreign sources by the Clinton campaign.

Yeah, OK, sure, and if they Russians provided the evidence, I'm sure Don Jr's next stop was FBI. Got it.

...you absolutely have not been paying attention.

No, I have been paying attention. Steele turning over his memos to FBI is not equivalent to Hillary directing the investigation.

The same can be said of the FBI leadership, can't it?

Right, you know Trump and his people lied repeatedly, and you can't address that point, so BUTWHATABOUTTHEFBI!!!

It is, because they were under investigation before the campaign with the exception of Papadopoulos. Who no one took seriously. What you want to ignore is the way this was conducted. Get information through an unverified political document unethically, unmask key campaign figures unethically, and leak damaging stories unethically. With political allies acting in their party's interest, there doesn't even need to be a conspiracy, they just act in the interest of damaging the other side.

That "no one took PapaD seriously" stuff is self serving on the part of the Trump campaign. If he was taken seriously, all those meetings with Russians might cause a problem, so the response is to claim no one took him seriously. PapaD? Who dat?

And we've reached the end of any productive debate. You're asserting your conclusions as evidence of your conclusions - that's basically your entire argument.

 

[OpportunityCost]

Re: Nunes: There Was NO OFFICIAL INTELLIGENCE USED to Start DOJ Spying on Trump

Yeah, OK, sure, and if they Russians provided the evidence, I'm sure Don Jr's next stop was FBI. Got it.

Now whose speculating?

No, I have been paying attention. Steele turning over his memos to FBI is not equivalent to Hillary directing the investigation.

You just have to ignore McCabe, Ohr, Comey, Strozk, Page, Yates, Powers and on and on who acted unethically all along the way.

Right, you know Trump and his people lied repeatedly, and you can't address that point, so BUTWHATABOUTTHEFBI!!!

Hillary lied repeatedly. She got a slap on the wrist. But that's different right?

That "no one took PapaD seriously" stuff is self serving on the part of the Trump campaign. If he was taken seriously, all those meetings with Russians might cause a problem, so the response is to claim no one took him seriously. PapaD? Who dat?

No one in the campaign was receptive to his ideas or what actions he thought should be taken. Even the FBI and Democrats on the Intel Committee aren't arguing that.

And we've reached the end of any productive debate. You're asserting your conclusions as evidence of your conclusions - that's basically your entire argument.

No, I'm asserting the OIG's conclusions.

 

[Unitedwestand13]

Re: Nunes: There Was NO OFFICIAL INTELLIGENCE USED to Start DOJ Spying on Trump

Now whose speculating?





You just have to ignore McCabe, Ohr, Comey, Strozk, Page, Yates, Powers and on and on who acted unethically all along the way.





Hillary lied repeatedly. She got a slap on the wrist. But that's different right?





No one in the campaign was receptive to his ideas or what actions he thought should be taken. Even the FBI and Democrats on the Intel Committee aren't arguing that.



No, I'm asserting the OIG's conclusions.

here is a million doller question: Who leaked the text messages of Strozk and Page?

 

[OpportunityCost]

Re: Nunes: There Was NO OFFICIAL INTELLIGENCE USED to Start DOJ Spying on Trump

here is a million doller question: Who leaked the text messages of Strozk and Page?

No idea but it happened right after the search warrants on Manafort.

 

[Unitedwestand13]

Re: Nunes: There Was NO OFFICIAL INTELLIGENCE USED to Start DOJ Spying on Trump

No idea but it happened right after the search warrants on Manafort.

they leaks themselves are political and Storzk and Page are victims of a political hit on them

 

[OpportunityCost]

Re: Nunes: There Was NO OFFICIAL INTELLIGENCE USED to Start DOJ Spying on Trump

they leaks themselves are political and Storzk and Page are victims of a political hit on them

They got cut by the same sword they had been using---leaks. Maybe Strozk and Page shouldn't have been leaking themselves, eh?

 

[Unitedwestand13]

Re: Nunes: There Was NO OFFICIAL INTELLIGENCE USED to Start DOJ Spying on Trump

They got cut by the same sword they had been using---leaks. Maybe Strozk and Page shouldn't have been leaking themselves, eh?

Leaks from the pro-trump anti-hilliary camp in the new york FBI branch

 

[OpportunityCost]

Re: Nunes: There Was NO OFFICIAL INTELLIGENCE USED to Start DOJ Spying on Trump

Leaks from the pro-trump anti-hilliary camp in the new york FBI branch

I sure don't know who leaked the messages.

 

[Objective Voice]

Re: Nunes: There Was NO OFFICIAL INTELLIGENCE USED to Start DOJ Spying on Trump

And this right here is just plain wrong.

He said the EC is what started the investigation into Trump. The EC exists. He finally got it from the FBI and he looked at it. The first thing he found was that there was no official intelligence in the EC. He explained that means no intelligence from US assets or 5 Eyes assets were in the EC. Nothing from those intelligence organizations started the Trump investigation.

He has never claimed official intelligence started the investigation.

As I said, Nunes also mentioned Papa~ and other sources of information that may have started the Trump investigation. He's looking at that stuff now.

BTW, Nunes is one of the Gang of Eight. He has FULL clearance to view any intelligence/classified information...as long as he follow proper procedure (SCIF, etc.) Schiff can, too. The others on his committee don't.

In any case, he's not trying to convince anyone of anything underhanded. He's investigating, he's asking questions, he's demanding information...and he's telling the public what he knows.

Regardless of which position Rep. Nunes is now taking as to what he believes started the investigation into Russian collusion, he's still attempting to conflate matters. As I've already stated, the "official 'unofficial' intelligence" he's looking for he DOES NOT have access to/won't get access to it without the source/host nation releasing said intelligence. Whether he's a member of the Gang of 8, the Chairman of the House Intel Committee or one of its ranking members doesn't matter. The law/rules concerning the release of FVEY information to a third party is clear. He doesn't get to see it without the host country's approval. Since Australia hasn't released that info to his "oversight committee", Nunes is SOL.

It's an interesting play he's making, however. Pres. Trump has already cast that shadow of doubt in the minds of his supporters that the Obama Administration was secretly surveying him and others within his campaign/Administration - a claim both men have had to backtrack. Still, he continues in his efforts to denounce our intelligence agencies and show they're being partisan if not outright underhanded by not confirming his suspicions on U.S. intelligence gathering particularly on the domestic (EC) side. Notice, however, how he carefully blends both domestic and foreign intelligence gathering on U.S. citizens in the same statement. Just watch and listen to the first 2:17 seconds of the OP video. He mentions both FISA and FVEY surveillance methods smoothing going from FISA to FVEY as if they're part of the same intelligence gathering process. The notion that said agencies are underhanded where the Russian investigation is concerned - a claim both Pres. Trump and hiss supporters love because it feds both their anti-Obama hate and their mistrust of BIG government - is patently false. Moreover, notice also how he initially speaks of the "missing intel" first coming from our intelligence agencies but then switches to the State Department as the source. Could it be that the Australian Papadopolous spoke with wasn't from the Australian intelligence community but rather from their State Department equivalent?

I fully understand what Rep. Nunes is trying to do here, but all it takes is reading the rules concerning FVEY to know Nunes is using a play on words to convince people "there's underhandedness afoot" when he knows full well there's just certain information he may never gain access to. He's conflating the issue using "electronic surveillance" and "unofficial" spying on U.S. citizens by our our FVEY allies as a dog whistle to Trump supporters concerning "official intelligence" towhich he knows he may never gain access.

 

[Mycroft]

Re: Nunes: There Was NO OFFICIAL INTELLIGENCE USED to Start DOJ Spying on Trump

Regardless of which position Rep. Nunes is now taking as to what he believes started the investigation into Russian collusion, he's still attempting to conflate matters. As I've already stated, the "official 'unofficial' intelligence" he's looking for he DOES NOT have access to/won't get access to it without the source/host nation releasing said intelligence. Whether he's a member of the Gang of 8, the Chairman of the House Intel Committee or one of its ranking members doesn't matter. The law/rules concerning the release of FVEY information to a third party is clear. He doesn't get to see it without the host country's approval. Since Australia hasn't released that info to his "oversight committee", Nunes is SOL.

It's an interesting play he's making, however. Pres. Trump has already cast that shadow of doubt in the minds of his supporters that the Obama Administration was secretly surveying him and others within his campaign/Administration - a claim both men have had to backtrack. Still, he continues in his efforts to denounce our intelligence agencies and show they're being partisan if not outright underhanded by not confirming his suspicions on U.S. intelligence gathering particularly on the domestic (EC) side. Notice, however, how he carefully blends both domestic and foreign intelligence gathering on U.S. citizens in the same statement. Just watch and listen to the first 2:17 seconds of the OP video. He mentions both FISA and FVEY surveillance methods smoothing going from FISA to FVEY as if they're part of the same intelligence gathering process. The notion that said agencies are underhanded where the Russian investigation is concerned - a claim both Pres. Trump and hiss supporters love because it feds both their anti-Obama hate and their mistrust of BIG government - is patently false. Moreover, notice also how he initially speaks of the "missing intel" first coming from our intelligence agencies but then switches to the State Department as the source. Could it be that the Australian Papadopolous spoke with wasn't from the Australian intelligence community but rather from their State Department equivalent?

I fully understand what Rep. Nunes is trying to do here, but all it takes is reading the rules concerning FVEY to know Nunes is using a play on words to convince people "there's underhandedness afoot" when he knows full well there's just certain information he may never gain access to. He's conflating the issue using "electronic surveillance" and "unofficial" spying on U.S. citizens by our our FVEY allies as a dog whistle to Trump supporters concerning "official intelligence" towhich he knows he may never gain access.

Once Australia releases intelligence to the US, it belongs to us. If that intelligence is included in EC that initiates a counter-intelligence operation, Nunes has access to it. We have our Constitution and our laws. Our laws are not dependent upon "permission" from another country.

Since this is what you hang your argument on, your first part of your post is meaningless.

Your contention that Nunes is trying to convince people of some kind of underhandedness is just plain wrong. He is doing his job conducting oversight. He's looking at evidence. I suggest you wait for the results of his investigation before you complain about it.

Good day.

 

[Objective Voice]

Re: Nunes: There Was NO OFFICIAL INTELLIGENCE USED to Start DOJ Spying on Trump

Once Australia releases intelligence to the US, it belongs to us. If that intelligence is included in EC that initiates a counter-intelligence operation, Nunes has access to it. We have our Constitution and our laws. Our laws are not dependent upon "permission" from another country.

Since this is what you hang your argument on, your whole post is meaningless.

Good day.

So meaningless that you felt compelled to reply to it. Moreover, you start your reply with "Once Australia releases intelligence to the US..." not "the intelligence has been released" indicating you know I'm right. With that, Good Day to you as well, sir. :2wave:

 

[Mycroft]

Re: Nunes: There Was NO OFFICIAL INTELLIGENCE USED to Start DOJ Spying on Trump

So meaningless that you felt compelled to reply to it. Moreover, you start your reply with "Once Australia releases intelligence to the US..." not "the intelligence has been released" indicating you know I'm right. With that, Good Day to you as well, sir. :2wave:

Doesn't matter if "the intelligence has been release". It wasn't in the EC.

 

[Objective Voice]

Re: Nunes: There Was NO OFFICIAL INTELLIGENCE USED to Start DOJ Spying on Trump

Doesn't matter if "the intelligence has been release". It wasn't in the EC.

And it wasn't in the EC because...???

(See my post #768 AGAIN for the answer)

 

[Mycroft]

Re: Nunes: There Was NO OFFICIAL INTELLIGENCE USED to Start DOJ Spying on Trump

And it wasn't in the EC because...???

(See my post #768 AGAIN for the answer)

Because the CIA didn't put it there. And that means it wasn't used to start the investigation.

 

[Objective Voice]

Re: Nunes: There Was NO OFFICIAL INTELLIGENCE USED to Start DOJ Spying on Trump

Because the CIA didn't put it there. And that means it wasn't used to start the investigation.

And that was because...???

The information probably didn't come through CIA channels. There's a reason Rep. Nunes mentions "State Department" in the video. :2wave:

Come on, you're a smart man. Stop looking for things that fit your perceived position and just follow the facts. Take the partisan off long enough to "read between the lines" of what Nunes is saying. He's conflating the issues between domestic and foreign intelligence gathering, FBI-CIB/State Department, electronic surveillance -vs- field work (of which neither were an issue if we are to believe Papadopolous was simply having an impromptu discussion with a foreign diplomat he trusted) when said diplomat learned of the DNC email server hack and remembered the discussion he had with Pap~. Coincidence? Maybe...but given the fact that the Aussie didn't relay what he knew until 2 months later, I'm leaning on the side of "impromptu discussion" over some clandestine "gotcha moment" against Papa~.

 

[Mycroft]

Re: Nunes: There Was NO OFFICIAL INTELLIGENCE USED to Start DOJ Spying on Trump

And that was because...???

The information probably didn't come through CIA channels. There's a reason Rep. Nunes mentions "State Department" in the video. :2wave:

This is exactly what Nunes said and he also said he's continuing his investigation...turning toward the State Department.

Come on, you're a smart man. Stop looking for things that fit your perceived position and just follow the facts. Take the partisan off long enough to "read between the lines" of what Nunes is saying. He's conflating the issues between domestic and foreign intelligence gathering, FBI-CIB/State Department, electronic surveillance -vs- field work (of which neither were an issue if we are to believe Papadopolous was simply having an impromptu discussion with a foreign diplomat he trusted) when said diplomat learned of the DNC email server hack and remembered the discussion he had with Pap~. Coincidence? Maybe...but given the fact that the Aussie didn't relay what he knew until 2 months later, I'm leaning on the side of "impromptu discussion" over some clandestine "gotcha moment" against Papa~.

And this is where you go off into your never-never-land of some ulterior motive on the part of Nunes. And it really isn't as complicated as you are trying to make it.

Something was used to justify, in the FBI's mind, a counter intelligence investigation against Trump and his people. Nunes intends to find out what was used. It's as simple as that.

Heck, don't YOU want to find out? Then you won't have to speculate.

 

[Atomic Kid]

Re: Nunes: There Was NO OFFICIAL INTELLIGENCE USED to Start DOJ Spying on Trump

Once Australia releases intelligence to the US, it belongs to us. If that intelligence is included in EC that initiates a counter-intelligence operation, Nunes has access to it. We have our Constitution and our laws. Our laws are not dependent upon "permission" from another country.

Since this is what you hang your argument on, your first part of your post is meaningless.

Your contention that Nunes is trying to convince people of some kind of underhandedness is just plain wrong. He is doing his job conducting oversight. He's looking at evidence. I suggest you wait for the results of his investigation before you complain about it.

Good day.

You have not slightest clue what it is you're talking about.

 

[Atomic Kid]

Re: Nunes: There Was NO OFFICIAL INTELLIGENCE USED to Start DOJ Spying on Trump

They got cut by the same sword they had been using---leaks. Maybe Strozk and Page shouldn't have been leaking themselves, eh?

Leaked what? That they're having an office affair?

 

[Mycroft]

Re: Nunes: There Was NO OFFICIAL INTELLIGENCE USED to Start DOJ Spying on Trump

You have not slightest clue what it is you're talking about.

shrug...

If you dispute anything I say, trot it out. Let's hear it.

 

[Mycroft]

Re: Nunes: There Was NO OFFICIAL INTELLIGENCE USED to Start DOJ Spying on Trump

Leaked what? That they're having an office affair?

We know they were leaking to the media. They talked about it in their texts.

I have my doubts that they were having an affair. That's what's been said about them, but their texts give no indication such a thing was going on.

 

[Atomic Kid]

Re: Nunes: There Was NO OFFICIAL INTELLIGENCE USED to Start DOJ Spying on Trump

All we have is various parts of texts without any supporting context and I would challenge you to provide any proof you have that they had leaked anything to the media. Their office affair has been pretty well established as being fact. They used their work phones to communicate figuring that their spouses would not be able or want to access those phones.

 

[OpportunityCost]

Re: Nunes: There Was NO OFFICIAL INTELLIGENCE USED to Start DOJ Spying on Trump

Leaked what? That they're having an office affair?

If that's your takeaway from their emails, you not only haven't been paying attention, you are so ignorant of the details of this issue, you shouldn't bother posting about it anymore.

 

[Howard the Duck]

This morning, Rep. Nunes was interviewed by Maria Bartiromo of Fox News. He made a statement about what was found in the electronic communications document he was finally able to get from the FBI that is simply stunning.

Listen for yourself:

There didn't need to be. All they had to do was establish probable cause. The bar was set very low. But hey, I didn't set it. I opposed the Patriot act.

 

[Atomic Kid]

Re: Nunes: There Was NO OFFICIAL INTELLIGENCE USED to Start DOJ Spying on Trump

If that's your takeaway from their emails, you not only haven't been paying attention, you are so ignorant of the details of this issue, you shouldn't bother posting about it anymore.

Yeah like I'm sure you will inform me all about it.:lamo