NT Wright on gay marriage

[HowardBThiname]

I don't refer to them as non-Christian because they believe in SSM, I call them non Christian because they don't believe Jesus was who he said he was. Some don't believe in God at all.

There are other denominations, like the Jehovah's Witnesses, that will claim the members of your church are not real Christians. Fundamental churches will make a similar claim. In the long run, none of it matters, people are pulling away from judgementalism.

And as far as us losing members, it's actually the other way around. The Episcopal Church is losing it's membership to the Continuing Anglican movement and the Anglican Realignment in droves.

When a religious group splits and hatred drives the members of one faction to the other, the faction that gains membership cannot be said to be truly victorious. All that's happening with the Angelican Realignment is that disgruntled Episcopalians are switching over. The entire Angelican communion is still losing members.

It's a temporary fix -- but religion around the world is declining -- and mostly in denominations that are more judgemental, like the Angelicans.

There are Angelicans who want ssm and they will eventually have their way.

In my opinion, and this is just my opinion mind you, I would say that those who oppose ssm are the ones who are not true Christians. Jesus never spoke out against ssm, and it's obvious something was going on between David and Jonathon, yet God said David's heart was pure. Homophobia is a human construct.

 

[PTF]

How about you mind your own damn business?

No.
It's my business to try stopping this and one of these days I'm going to succeed.

 

[TheGoverness]

No.
It's my business to try stopping this and one of these days I'm going to succeed.

No, it's not your business, and you are never going to succeed. Ever. So you might as well give up.

 

[HonestJoe]

All right, try this on for size: the Church has always been against abortion, that's number one. And I think it's generally agreed that the best institution for raising children is a man/woman marriage. (Don't bother quoting some study to me that says otherwise, there are just as many that say the opposite).

I thought another poster was alluding to this but I'll say it right out - we are below replacement level in our population, just like Europe, the UK, etc.

We are running the risk of economic and national decline simply because we don't have enough sense to reproduce. And as stupid as I have seen people become over the past 40-50 years I don't see much hope.

I don't see what any of that has to do with same-sex marriage. Banning it won't magically make homosexuals marry opposite-sex partners and have lots of children and those who have children (say from previous relationships or adoption) won't have the option of the stability of legally recognised marriage.

Abortion is entirely off-topic (and anyway, there isn't a the Church to have a singular opinion on that topic either).

 

[CLAX1911]

Why don't you answer? Yes or no.

It's a stupid question. Representatives are not the law.

Who gives a **** how representatives get into office?

Whatever nuance of democracy it's supposed to be - lol, makes me think of atheism (with it's different "shades") - don't you have ELECTED representatives?

Yes we elect our representatives. They arent the law. So pointing out that a constitutional republic votes for its representatives doesn't negate the constitution.

That's a very simple question.

As well as stupid and irrelevant.

 

[it's just me]

I don't see what any of that has to do with same-sex marriage. Banning it won't magically make homosexuals marry opposite-sex partners and have lots of children and those who have children (say from previous relationships or adoption) won't have the option of the stability of legally recognised marriage.

Abortion is entirely off-topic (and anyway, there isn't a the Church to have a singular opinion on that topic either).

There is one Church - one faith, one hope, one baptism - the body of Christ, past present, and future. Denomination is irrelevant. Pretenders and counterfeiters don't call the shots when it comes to the sacraments, the Body of Christ does, as we received it from the apostles, and all the denials in the world won't change that. Now, you can argue about whether Christianity is valid, but when it comes to talking about what Christianity is and isn't, there is the truth and then there is your opinion.

 

[DickBanks]

Of course we made laws. We've made laws for thousands of years regarding the subject of marriage along with dozens of other laws.

I'm not sure what you mean about the "Christian position" however, because all the Christians I know accept same-sex marriage as being the best for society. Many Christian churches, in fact, are performing same sex marriages. That appears to be the real Christian position. I was just pointing out how Mr. Wright was wrong in much of his assessment.

I wonder when marriage became the purview of the State?
My marriage in consecrated with God. I have a Marriage License; that's from the State.
What does it matter to the State if I am married to this woman, or just living together?
I guess really it's just for the taxes.

 

[it's just me]

There are other denominations, like the Jehovah's Witnesses, that will claim the members of your church are not real Christians. Fundamental churches will make a similar claim. In the long run, none of it matters, people are pulling away from judgementalism.



When a religious group splits and hatred drives the members of one faction to the other, the faction that gains membership cannot be said to be truly victorious. All that's happening with the Angelican Realignment is that disgruntled Episcopalians are switching over. The entire Angelican communion is still losing members.

It's a temporary fix -- but religion around the world is declining -- and mostly in denominations that are more judgemental, like the Angelicans.

There are Angelicans who want ssm and they will eventually have their way.

In my opinion, and this is just my opinion mind you, I would say that those who oppose ssm are the ones who are not true Christians. Jesus never spoke out against ssm, and it's obvious something was going on between David and Jonathon, yet God said David's heart was pure. Homophobia is a human construct.

As I told honest Joe:

"There is one Church - one faith, one hope, one baptism - the body of Christ, past present, and future. Denomination is irrelevant. Pretenders and counterfeiters don't call the shots when it comes to the sacraments, the Body of Christ does, as we received it from the apostles, and all the denials in the world won't change that. Now, you can argue about whether Christianity is valid, but when it comes to talking about what Christianity is and isn't, there is the truth and then there is your opinion."

Marriage is used over and over again as a symbol of Christ's relationship to the Church - the bride of Christ. This is implicit in Wright's article, and Paul mentions it in Ephesians 5:25 - 27, and so on.

Preserving the sacrament of marriage is to preserve what Christ intended for the Church - it is not "un-Christian" - it is the only Christian thing to do.

 

[zyzygy]

I wonder when marriage became the purview of the State?
My marriage in consecrated with God. I have a Marriage License; that's from the State.
What does it matter to the State if I am married to this woman, or just living together?
I guess really it's just for the taxes.

Same here. I know many couples who lived together for some years and got married for the tax break.

 

[HowardBThiname]

As I told honest Joe:

"There is one Church - one faith, one hope, one baptism - the body of Christ, past present, and future. Denomination is irrelevant. Pretenders and counterfeiters don't call the shots when it comes to the sacraments, the Body of Christ does, as we received it from the apostles, and all the denials in the world won't change that. Now, you can argue about whether Christianity is valid, but when it comes to talking about what Christianity is and isn't, there is the truth and then there is your opinion."

Likewise, there is truth and then there is your opinion. In reality, sacraments are nothing more than traditions, and in saying that, the RCC is apparent in your existing belief system. I guess the Reformation wasn't all that big a separation after all.

Marriage is used over and over again as a symbol of Christ's relationship to the Church - the bride of Christ. This is implicit in Wright's article, and Paul mentions it in Ephesians 5:25 - 27, and so on.

Look, Wright was spewing nonsense when he said there was no history of ssm. He doesn't know his history, so I have a hard time putting faith in anything else he says. Christ's relationship to the Church has nothing to do with modern marriage between two consenting adults. Nothing whatsoever. More than half of all marriages end in divorce. Christ never once condemned ssm, so pretending He opposed it borders on blasphemy if He would have approved of it.

Preserving the sacrament of marriage is to preserve what Christ intended for the Church - it is not "un-Christian" - it is the only Christian thing to do.

This reminds me of Jesus words in Matthew 7, where he first admonishes his listeners not to judge, and then later explains that many who are following what think is right will call out "Lord, Lord" but He will turn them away.

Don't get so wrapped up in ritualism that you miss reality.

 

[HowardBThiname]

As I told honest Joe:

"There is one Church - one faith, one hope, one baptism - the body of Christ, past present, and future. Denomination is irrelevant. Pretenders and counterfeiters don't call the shots when it comes to the sacraments, the Body of Christ does, as we received it from the apostles, and all the denials in the world won't change that. Now, you can argue about whether Christianity is valid, but when it comes to talking about what Christianity is and isn't, there is the truth and then there is your opinion."

Marriage is used over and over again as a symbol of Christ's relationship to the Church - the bride of Christ. This is implicit in Wright's article, and Paul mentions it in Ephesians 5:25 - 27, and so on.

Preserving the sacrament of marriage is to preserve what Christ intended for the Church - it is not "un-Christian" - it is the only Christian thing to do.

Nothing against you but as I answered your post to me I saw this. :shock: I going to take it as a sign that your message to me isn't divinely inspired.

 

[HowardBThiname]

No.
It's my business to try stopping this and one of these days I'm going to succeed.

Why do you want to involve yourself? Don't you think marriage should be the decision of the participants?

 

[it's just me]

Nothing against you but as I answered your post to me I saw this. :shock: I going to take it as a sign that your message to me isn't divinely inspired. View attachment 67227528

You know, I used to enjoy your posts but I'm going to have to ask you not to bother trying to engage me anymore. This forum has stopped being a joke when atheists blow me off with "Left Behind" insults.

 

[Barny]

We have not made any laws. We had this foisted upon us by unelected judges, and that does not serve society. Finally, my purpose was not to debate any of that, it was to explain the Christian position and why it is important to us, since nobody seems to understand it, nor do they want to, apparently.

You have had nothing foisted on you! No one is forcing you to marry someone of the same sex. If you're a Christian you're welcome to follow the Bible's guidelines. If the Bible is true you will receive your reward. Just what if the Bible is a work of fiction? You're condemning a lot of people and destroying lives because of your belief in fiction. It is the height of arrogance to foist your beliefs on the rest of the population.

 

[it's just me]

You have had nothing foisted on you! No one is forcing you to marry someone of the same sex. If you're a Christian you're welcome to follow the Bible's guidelines. If the Bible is true you will receive your reward. Just what if the Bible is a work of fiction? You're condemning a lot of people and destroying lives because of your belief in fiction. It is the height of arrogance to foist your beliefs on the rest of the population.

People like you are filled with hate. You are condemning a lot of people and destroying lives. It is the height of arrogance to foist your beliefs on the rest of the population.

 

[Barny]

People like you are filled with hate. You are condemning a lot of people and destroying lives. It is the height of arrogance to foist your beliefs on the rest of the population.

Laughable!!! I'm not trying to pass laws to have religion banned. Your welcome to your beliefs as am I. The only difference is I'm not trying to impose my beliefs on others.

 

[it's just me]

Laughable!!! I'm not trying to pass laws to have religion banned. Your welcome to your beliefs as am I. The only difference is I'm not trying to impose my beliefs on others.

You just did.

 

[Barny]

You just did.

How?

Granted in re-reading my post there should have been a 'then' in there.

...Just what if the Bible is a work of fiction? Then you're condemning a lot of people and destroying lives because of your belief in fiction.

I'm not saying the Bible is true or false. If you believe it to be true follow the Bible and you'll get your reward, but why are a lot of Christians getting involved in politics to stop SSM? If it is sinful any who engage in it will be punished by God. It is of no concern to you. Freedom of religion and all... my religious beliefs are that SSM is blessed and Gods way of curbing overpopulation as man has no real predator to keep our population in check.

 

[TheGoverness]

We have not made any laws. We had this foisted upon us by unelected judges, and that does not serve society. Finally, my purpose was not to debate any of that, it was to explain the Christian position and why it is important to us, since nobody seems to understand it, nor do they want to, apparently.

If you don't wanna get gay married, then don't. Simple as that.

Nobody's forcing anything upon you.

 

[it's just me]

If you don't wanna get gay married, then don't. Simple as that.

No, I don't want to bake a cake. Tell me how nobody's forcing that on me.

 

[TheGoverness]

No, I don't want to bake a cake.

Then don't bake cakes.

 

[Tanngrisnir]

No.
It's my business to try stopping this and one of these days I'm going to succeed.

You know, one of the best things about same sex marriage being legal is how severely it puts people like you in pain, not just having to consider that gay people are now getting married, but also having to live with that fact.

I find your suffering to be exquisitely delicious.

 

[Tanngrisnir]

People like you are filled with hate. You are condemning a lot of people and destroying lives. It is the height of arrogance to foist your beliefs on the rest of the population.

Show us on the doll how hate-filled gay marriage destroyed your life. Take all the time you need.

 

[it's just me]

Then don't bake cakes.

A guy in Oregon found out about that.

 

[Barny]

No, I don't want to bake a cake. Tell me how nobody's forcing that on me.

So you would be happy if Muslim shop owners were allowed to impose their religious beliefs on their customers. I bet you would be the first to complain if a Muslim shop owner refused to serve a Christian girl who was showing to much skin. Society would be served best if everyone observed their own beliefs in private and when making the choice to run a business dealing with the public to treat everyone equally. But as a gay person myself I would not have taken the Baker to court, I would have respected his beliefs.