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Nothing made everything....

Daisy

Daisy

"Make sure of the more important things."
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How do we know it was necessary to make something at all?
 
devildavid said:
How do we know it was necessary to make something at all?
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To rephrase devildavid's question: what if the universe has always existed?
 
VINLO said:
To rephrase devildavid's question: what if the universe has always existed?
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So you can believe a universe has always existed but not a Supreme Being? Weird...
 
Elvira said:
So you can believe a universe has always existed but not a Supreme Being? Weird...
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No, you can have either or, or both. But if the universe always existed, a creator god is not required.
 
Elvira said:
So you can believe a universe has always existed but not a Supreme Being? Weird...
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Not necessarily. I believe both an infinite universe and an 'uncaused cause' are both plausible explanations for the universe's existence.

Infinite existence is what we would call a "brute fact": a fact that is true, but has no explanation to discover because there isn't one. Saying a God created the universe doesn't really explain the universe, it just moves the brute fact one step backward. Instead of the universe always existing, now God has always existed.

If you're willing to accept brute facts, then you must also accept the possibility of an infinite universe.
 
VINLO said:
Who or what is this directed at?
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The thread in general, because few if any believe that "nothing made everything".
So one crackpot wants to argue that "something came from nothing".

Let me run out on the street and go find someone who thinks the Earth is flat.
 
VINLO said:
Not necessarily. I believe both an infinite universe and an 'uncaused cause' are both plausible explanations for the universe's existence.

Infinite existence is what we would call a "brute fact": a fact that is true, but has no explanation to discover because there isn't one. Saying a God created the universe doesn't really explain the universe, it just moves the brute fact one step backward. Instead of the universe always existing, now God has always existed.

If you're willing to accept brute facts, then you must also accept the possibility of an infinite universe.
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Still makes no sense to me, saying the universe has always been, but saying there's no way God has always existed...it's just stupid...
 
Elvira said:
So you can believe a universe has always existed but not a Supreme Being? Weird...
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So you can believe a Supreme Being has always existed but not the universe? Weird. ;)

Personally I believe anything is possible but nothing is certain.
 
HonestJoe said:
So you can believe a Supreme Being has always existed but not the universe? Weird. ;)

Personally I believe anything is possible but nothing is certain.
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Yeah, because the Bible tells me God created the universe...who tells you the universe has always been?
 
Elvira said:
Yeah, because the Bible tells me God created the universe...who tells you the universe has always been?
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I never said it was, I said anything is possible. I don’t see any reason to treat the Bible and unquestionable truth, only another possibility and in this context, it doesn’t really matter which possibility is true. The simple question of whether the universe was created or always existed has no real impact on my life. It’s nothing more than a curiosity, like seeing which raindrop gets to the bottom of the window first.
 
Elvira said:
Still makes no sense to me, saying the universe has always been, but saying there's no way God has always existed...it's just stupid...
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You're bad at reading comprehension.

I said if we are going to accept the possibility of an infinitely existential creator, then we also must accept the possibility of an infinitely existential universe.
 
Checkerboard Strangler said:
The thread in general, because few if any believe that "nothing made everything".
So one crackpot wants to argue that "something came from nothing".

Let me run out on the street and go find someone who thinks the Earth is flat.
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I agree. Nothing never did exist, if it did, then the first Law of Thermodynamics would have been violated, and it is a scientific fact that can not happen. No, God always has existed.

Evolution has no answer to where the energy came from it nothing became something. They deny God did it, yet scratch their heads trying to fit a different narrative, and they can't.

Their scientific community is as political as it is scientific, and that leads to false science, which is what part of evolution is.
 
Davey said:
I agree. Nothing never did exist, if it did, then the first Law of Thermodynamics would have been violated, and it is a scientific fact that can not happen. No, God always has existed.

Evolution has no answer to where the energy came from it nothing became something. They deny God did it, yet scratch their heads trying to fit a different narrative, and they can't.

Their scientific community is as political as it is scientific, and that leads to false science, which is what part of evolution is.
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Not quite true there.

One of the problems with trying to understand what happened before the universe became is that physics as it works in our universe, did not apply before the universe. So therefor no law of thermodynamics was violated because no such law existed. I would like to say at the time but that would be incorrect as well because there is no reason to assume time existed before creation either.

And again no, It is not deny god did it. It is why assume a god did it. God is nothing more than an extra complication and one that has no evidence of existence. There is not one good reason or any evidence that suggests a god should be included into the equation.
 
soylentgreen said:
Not quite true there.

One of the problems with trying to understand what happened before the universe became is that physics as it works in our universe, did not apply before the universe. So therefor no law of thermodynamics was violated because no such law existed. I would like to say at the time but that would be incorrect as well because there is no reason to assume time existed before creation either.

And again no, It is not deny god did it. It is why assume a god did it. God is nothing more than an extra complication and one that has no evidence of existence. There is not one good reason or any evidence that suggests a god should be included into the equation.
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Along that line, your answer is no better. My answer is God did it, your answer is "I don't know". I'll take my answer.
 
Davey said:
Along that line, your answer is no better. My answer is God did it, your answer is "I don't know". I'll take my answer.
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It is not a question of whether you want to believe in an imaginary friend did it. Not my problem. It is a question of looking at the reasoning you are using to maintain your fiction. Your post that i replied to is incorrect in the ways i stated. Your reasoning is false.

Personally i think believing a godidit scenario is bad enough in it self. But to maintain it through lies, self deception and ignorance as you have done is even worse.
 
Davey said:
Along that line, your answer is no better. My answer is God did it, your answer is "I don't know". I'll take my answer.
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Your answer isn't entirely intellectually honest, though. You don't know either.

A more honest statement would be "I don't know what stands at the origin of the universe, but I choose to believe it is a God, because I find that belief useful to me."
 
Elvira said:
So you can believe a universe has always existed but not a Supreme Being? Weird...
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What are you gaining by positing a Supreme Being? It's like a long chain of causation and you can't see the beginning of it. Adding a Supreme Being is just adding an additional link to that chain. But you still don't see what that additional link is hooked up to. Because then who created that Supreme Being? And if you are going to tell us he just was, why can't the universe just have been?
 
Elvira said:
So you can believe a universe has always existed but not a Supreme Being?
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In order for a supreme being to exist it would have to live inside a universe of some sort that has always existed. The real question is why is it that you can believe in a supreme being that did not need to be created, but you can't accept the possibility that human beings didn't need creating?
 
MrWonka said:
In order for a supreme being to exist it would have to live inside a universe of some sort that has always existed.
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This isn't quite correct. Human beings are part of the causal chain of the universe and, thus, necessitate the existence of some cause: something made life. There isn't reason to believe a supernatural entity was the origin of abiogenesis, but if we have a finite causal chain, there must by logical necessity be an Uncaused Cause™ who is responsible for the existence of the universe. That thing could not exist inside our universe (or any universe) because to do so would simply mean it is not infinitely existential.

Assuming the universe is not an infinite causal chain, then the Uncaused Cause would have to be some kind of existence in and of itself: it is existence. All actual, no potential: all expression, no pre-expressive state. It is not "contained" in some dimension where our universe once did not exist, it is the dimension. It would have to be.

The problem is, saying the universe can't be infinite and then saying the universe's existence necessitates a First Cause doesn't actually solve the problem of something being infinite: we've just assigned infinity to this new thing called God. Nothing is really being explained by doing so. There's no special reason for it: we might as well just say the universe is the thing that is infinite.
 
Religious people made up god...
 
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