Non-binary gender identities.

[CLAX1911]

Oh, sorry...I was saying yes, female and male dogs behave differently....very much so.

No worries. I agree. Different behaviors can be seen in women and men as well. I'd call that gender.

 

[Nilly]

I don't know if everybody has heard of this but just to give an explanation. A non-binary gender identity is one which a person identifies as something other than male or female.

As gender politics progress it seems there are people that want to be on The Cutting Edge so much so that they will invent imaginary genders.

Haven't ever had much luck with this discussion but I'll try it here.

My position is that gender is an expression of sex. Sex exist in order for our species to reproduce. There seems to be this concept of a spectrum which I reject. There are two sexes and they are opposite. I define sex by what reproductive material your body produces used to produce or would produce. Basically put if you produce sperm your male. If you are a sterilized male you're still male. And likewise if you produce an egg or would have done so outside of any reproductive deficiency you are female. And if you express the opposite genders characteristics I would say you're transgender. I don't think chromosomes necessarily matter because there are XY women that produce eggs they are female rare as they are. And having extra chromosomes doesn't factor into it

I accept that gender can be different then sex but I don't think it's completely disconnected. Gender is how sex is expressed. There are cultural expectations for men or women boys or girls but that isn't gender that's cultural expectation. I am also not saying that there aren't outliers. These are the exceptions not the rule.

So in my opinion non-binary gender cannot exist because you're either male or female and because of that you express the gender of your sex or the opposite gender. There is no third sex because it only takes a male and a female to reproduce. Because of that and because gender is tied to sex there are no third or non-binary genders.

Agree or disagree please share your thoughts.

We have no issues with girls considering themselves tomboys.

Which is really not that different.

 

[Napoleon]

Multiple non-Western cultures have long recognized more than 2 genders.

That is typically meant in the context of transgender persons. Non-binary is not the same thing - it is a rejection of gender altogether and of cultural gender norms/roles which can mean anything from clothing to pronouns. These are people who take gender non-conformism to extremes and don't identify as any gender.

 

[jdog21]

That's not quite true - on "simplistic" terms, an individual will either inherit either a pair of XX or pair of XY sex chromosomes from their parents. We know if that individual has XY chromosomes, that the Y chromosome will spur the androgens in prenatal development that stimulate the development and maintenance of male characteristics. However if there's no Y chromosome present, the embryo will develop into a female.

However that's the simplistic version of what actually happens. In the "real world," it's messier. For example, there are chromosomal disorders that occur. An embryo may not inherit just XX or XY sex chromosomes - but may instead inherit extra copies like XXY (Klinefelter's syndrome) or even XYY chromosomes. Neither of which neatly fits the definition of "binary sexes," nor if you were to inquire of these individuals, causes them to identify as strictly male or female. What's more is that while these individuals may be rare, that does not make these people nonexistent and therefore irrelevant to your opinion.

Other issues may occur as well--in human development an embryo becomes a female if there is no Y-chromosome present. Therefore what happens if there is a Y-chromosome present, but the fetus' cells do not respond in part or even at all to the androgen? It results in an individual that has an intersex condition call AIS (Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome). These individuals may either present as female or androgynous depending on the severity of the insensitivity, but are genetically male nonetheless. Do these individuals feels that their gender identification does not exist, or that they must solely identify as male or female because "there is no third sex"?

There's a semi-famous model who just come out with having this condition recently: Hanne Gaby Odiele. Hanne is genetically male and presents as female, but identifies as neither male nor female. Though she does like 'she'. And if you are curious, Hanne does have a husband: Model Hanne Gaby Odiele on Being Intersex - Vogue

And this goes on ... there are numerous other conditions that cause blurring between sex and gender, and you may certainly add in sexuality to this as well.

Just because some rare people in the world have a disorder that make them less of a man xxy for instant doesnt mean theyre not a man. Just because a person doesnt grow balls and had a very small penis doesnt make them less of a man. There are hermaphodites in the world and they are the only ones who have a choice and any good doctor and parent will notice this at birth and choose the sex for the baby. Once a sex has been choosen theres no going back. Any one who wants to be a different sex other then what they were born with has a mental issue. Allthough we should be able to tolerate others behaviors like this we dont need to remove scientific evidence and social norms to accomodate them.

 

[CLAX1911]

We have no issues with girls considering themselves tomboys.

Which is really not that different.

I would say it's different.

A young girl enjoying Sports working on cars and other such manly type things isn't anything to do with gender at all. Those are simply interests and hobbies.

Further a tomboy still fits the binary.

 

[Nilly]

I would say it's different.

A young girl enjoying Sports working on cars and other such manly type things isn't anything to do with gender at all. Those are simply interests and hobbies.

Further a tomboy still fits the binary.

But you just said:

Different behaviors can be seen in women and men as well. I'd call that gender.

With non-binary gender identities the clue is in the name. It's not just two ends, black and white, there is a sliding scale.

We've long accepted that some girls can be naturally more 'boyish' than others. Thus, in this specific case we've long accepted it's not black and white. It's the same principle, just more or less pronounced.

 

[CLAX1911]

But you just said:

just so?

With non-binary gender identities the clue is in the name. It's not just two ends, black and white, there is a sliding scale.

okay there is a sliding scale between male and female that's binary non-binary would mean there is something else other than male or female or anything in between.

We've long accepted that some girls can be naturally more 'boyish' than others.

listen to what you said they behave in a boyish way a girl that behaves in a boyish way is still within the binary.

Thus, in this specific case we've long accepted it's not black and white. It's the same principle, just more or less pronounced.

Basically you're saying there's a gray area and even that metaphor is binary because Dre is a mixture of white and black a binary system. Think about binary code you only have ones and zeros behaviors can only be male or female there's nothing else. Even if you exhibit behaviors we normally associate with females and your mail it doesn't make your gender non-binary.

 

[Absentglare]

I don't know if everybody has heard of this but just to give an explanation. A non-binary gender identity is one which a person identifies as something other than male or female.

As gender politics progress it seems there are people that want to be on The Cutting Edge so much so that they will invent imaginary genders.

Haven't ever had much luck with this discussion but I'll try it here.

My position is that gender is an expression of sex. Sex exist in order for our species to reproduce. There seems to be this concept of a spectrum which I reject. There are two sexes and they are opposite. I define sex by what reproductive material your body produces used to produce or would produce. Basically put if you produce sperm your male. If you are a sterilized male you're still male. And likewise if you produce an egg or would have done so outside of any reproductive deficiency you are female. And if you express the opposite genders characteristics I would say you're transgender. I don't think chromosomes necessarily matter because there are XY women that produce eggs they are female rare as they are. And having extra chromosomes doesn't factor into it

I accept that gender can be different then sex but I don't think it's completely disconnected. Gender is how sex is expressed. There are cultural expectations for men or women boys or girls but that isn't gender that's cultural expectation. I am also not saying that there aren't outliers. These are the exceptions not the rule.

So in my opinion non-binary gender cannot exist because you're either male or female and because of that you express the gender of your sex or the opposite gender. There is no third sex because it only takes a male and a female to reproduce. Because of that and because gender is tied to sex there are no third or non-binary genders.

Agree or disagree please share your thoughts.

Your post is very reasonable but i disagree on a rather significant point: "There are two sexes and they are opposite." There are, in fact, more than two sexes. Furthermore, the way sexes are defined is across a myriad of sex characteristics which vary within a specific gender category.

The biology does not have two genders, that is an oversimplification. Biologically, there are three major groups; male, female, and intersex. Your assessment seems to be predicated on the assumption that intersex people are not legitimate.

 

[Absentglare]

There are two genders...male and female. There are the occasional medical anomalies...but those are rare. What cannot be denied is that for whatever reason there are people that 'feel' different from what they 'are'. It cant be denied and I see no good reason why it should be denied. If you are a man that was born a man but really really really FEEL like a woman, then you should find peace in accepting that you are a man...that for some reason really really really FEELS like a woman. And then live your life joyously accordingly.

We can accept your preference of identity. Hell...I dont have to live your life. Call yourself a rainbow farting unicorn for all I care. I'll throw you a carrot every now and then. But as soon as we cross the bridge from what you are to what you FEEEEEL you are...**** starts to get really really crazy and not a little bit destructive. And look...there is no standard. Its ridiculous. NYC recognizes 31 identified gender types. New Zealand recognizes 33. Many social media sites accept anywhere from 58 to 64 gender types. the UK has a list of 71. And thats just within the species. Then we have trans-species individuals that really really rally really believe they are different types of animals. Trans abled people believe they were really really really meant to be born with a disability. Trans racial people really really really believe they were meant to be born black or Indian, or any number of other races even though they and their parents remain the whitest people you will ever know. And as a result of this movement to validate feeeeelings we have people performing acts of self mutilation out of loathing for their current body/state.

We arent helping people...we are killing them.

Accept who you are. Accept how you feel. Live your life. Dont try and convince others and dont demand others conform to your belief in order for you to be happy. This whole life gig is truly not as complicated as we keep making it.

Ironically, you acknowledge the scientific evidence that disproves your ignorant assumption ("medical anomalies").

Hopefully you can follow your own advice and avoid such "destructive" behavior in the future.

 

[Absentglare]

just so?



okay there is a sliding scale between male and female that's binary non-binary would mean there is something else other than male or female or anything in between.

listen to what you said they behave in a boyish way a girl that behaves in a boyish way is still within the binary.



Basically you're saying there's a gray area and even that metaphor is binary because Dre is a mixture of white and black a binary system. Think about binary code you only have ones and zeros behaviors can only be male or female there's nothing else. Even if you exhibit behaviors we normally associate with females and your mail it doesn't make your gender non-binary.

No, it's not within the binary.

I'm an electrical engineer. I understand very well what oversimplifying something into a binary state means. It appears that you do not.

A boyish girl and a girlish boy are incomprehensible in a binary system. That system is definitively more complex than what can be represented by a single bit.

 

[molten_dragon]

I think there are two genders, and by a great coincidence they correspond to the two physical sexes. Weird how that works out.

I think sometimes some wires can get crossed and your gender identity can not match your physical sex. But I don't think there are a bunch of other gender identities out there beyond male and female. I think some of it is just people wanting to be different and seeking attention. I think the rest can probably be explained by people who are just confused by their gender identity and are flailing around seeking some sort of descriptive term that matches their confused feelings about their gender identity.

So maybe we could add a third gender for those people. Male, female, and undecided.

 

[L0neW0lf]

I accept that gender can be different then sex but I don't think it's completely disconnected. Gender is how sex is expressed.

How do you accept that? clearly the sex of a transgender person depends according to you on them having ovaries or testicles even if the testes or ovaries they have are dysfunctional due to a medical condition. It seems clear that your criteria does not allow for the existence of binary trans people. You say that:

And if you express the opposite genders characteristics I would say you're transgender.

What if you express some of the opposite gender characteristics but not all of them? what are those gender characteristics? what if you produce eggs identify as a woman but express all of the man gender characteristics of a man?

You seem very confused. Reading your own comments here you say that you accept that:

I meant that there is a cultural component to gender my apologies. And yes I believe there is a spectrum for gender, but I still think it's linked to sex.

If you accept there is a spectrum for gender, why is your thread about you denying the existence of a spectrum for gender? the existence of a spectrum literally means the existence of gender non binary people.

Immediately after your post you go on to say that:

But I agree that there are only two sexes. But if go farther and say that there are only two gender because of the fact that gender is an expression of sex.

I assume that "if" should be "I" but then this post would just be contradictory to the post directly before it and in contradiction to the original post.

please share your thoughts.

Clearly you are confused, you are politically opposed to progress and change, you delude yourself into thinking that your opinions are based on science and biology but clearly they aren't.

 

[Visbek]

in my opinion non-binary gender cannot exist because you're either male or female and because of that you express the gender of your sex or the opposite gender. There is no third sex because it only takes a male and a female to reproduce. Because of that and because gender is tied to sex there are no third or non-binary genders.

Agree or disagree please share your thoughts.

Gender is a social construct.

Sex is a biological concept. And like most such biological concepts, it is rarely as neat as one might presume, based on the occasional need to simplify the science in order to teach people about it.

For example, while we don't have a solid lock on the number of people who are born intersex, it may be as high as 1%. (By the way, the mere existence of intersex obviously trashes the demand that gender must be binary, based on the biology.)

Proclaiming that "gender is based on sex" is sort of like saying "race and ethnicity are based on genes," which is to say that there is some truth there, but ultimately it's just not the case. Race uses skin color and other surface details as a proxy for genetics, and is frequently wrong. E.g. Irish, Scots, English and Welsh are all from the same basic gene pool, with almost no variation between them; yet each of these groups treats their ethnic identity, and the alleged personality traits, as though they were biological in nature. Conversely, Africans have the greatest amount of genetic diversity, but we often ignore this because they have a few phenotypes in common (brown skin, black curly hair).

Similarly, knowing the biological factors of one's sex doesn't really tell you anything about gender, especially since it's entirely plausible that there are psychological and cultural factors at play, along with biological ones that are not causally linked to chromosomes (e.g. development in utero).

Further, at this point in time, there really isn't any requirement for humans to insist that everyone fit into neat little biological holes (which aren't that neat to begin with). The vast majority of people match their gender to their sex, and the number that don't are quite small, and do not harm or detract from the rest of society in any way. Their presence doesn't reduce reproduction rates, for example. It's a superfluous demand.

 

[CLAX1911]

How do you accept that?

By simply accepting it.

clearly the sex of a transgender person depends according to you on them having ovaries or testicles even if the testes or ovaries they have are dysfunctional due to a medical condition.

That's what sex depends on period.

It seems clear that your criteria does not allow for the existence of binary trans people. You say that:

Yes it does.

What if you express some of the opposite gender characteristics but not all of them?

you are still binary.

what are those gender characteristics?

Instinctual behaviors and biological traits.

what if you produce eggs identify as a woman but express all of the man gender characteristics of a man?

Than your average female and a woman. Hobbies and interests have nothing to do with gender.

You seem very confused. Reading your own comments here you say that you accept that:



If you accept there is a spectrum for gender, why is your thread about you denying the existence of a spectrum for gender? the existence of a spectrum literally means the existence of gender non binary people.

Well there isn't a contradiction. The spectrum exist for gender characteristics. It doesn't make you trans gender, it certainly doesn't make you non binary. It just makes you a woman with a mustache or a hairy chest. Or a man with slender wrists or a delicate build.

It really all depends on what you consider characteristics that equate to gender. I would limit characteristics that ate biological to gender and all other characteristics ate simply culture and attributed to gender roles within culture.

Clearly you are confused

I think it is you that it's confused.

you are politically opposed to progress and change,

Imaginary nonsense isn't progress or change. It's playing pretend.

you delude yourself into thinking that your opinions are based on science and biology but clearly they aren't.

There is no science that supports none binary next within the human species. And since gender is an expression of sex there are no "non-binary" genders.

 

[CLAX1911]

Gender is a social construct.

I disagree. Gender is the expression of sex.

Sex is a biological concept. And like most such biological concepts, it is rarely as neat as one might presume, based on the occasional need to simplify the science in order to teach people about it.

For example, while we don't have a solid lock on the number of people who are born intersex, it may be as high as 1%. (By the way, the mere existence of intersex obviously trashes the demand that gender must be binary, based on the biology.)

Intersex does not constitute a third sex. They represent a disability. If they aren't steril they couldn't perform a capacity in reproduction other than male or female because no other capacity exists.

Proclaiming that "gender is based on sex" is sort of like saying "race and ethnicity are based on genes," which is to say that there is some truth there, but ultimately it's just not the case. Race uses skin color and other surface details as a proxy for genetics, and is frequently wrong.

Race most certainly is based on genes. Skin color is a secondary characteristic of race. There are other characteristics that determine race.

E.g. Irish, Scots, English and Welsh are all from the same basic gene pool, with almost no variation between them; yet each of these groups treats their ethnic identity, and the alleged personality traits, as though they were biological in nature.

Well those aren't ethnicities and they certainly aren't races. They are nationalities. If you are born and dwell in Ireland Scotland Wels ect. that is how you are determined to be Scottish Irish, or Welsh. You can be all of those things and be black or oriental. And your ethnicity is heavily influenced by the culture you grew up in.

Conversely, Africans have the greatest amount of genetic diversity, but we often ignore this because they have a few phenotypes in common (brown skin, black curly hair).

Africa is home to multiple races of people. Africa is also a continent like south America or Asia. So there isn't a common phenotype. There are oriental, white, black and various other blends of races that live in Africa.

Similarly, knowing the biological factors of one's sex doesn't really tell you anything about gender, especially since it's entirely plausible that there are psychological and cultural factors at play, along with biological ones that are not causally linked to chromosomes (e.g. development in utero).

I disagree. There are biological differences. It's how you can tell someone is a cross dresser. The male sex produces more testosterone so they normally appear larger. There are plenty of examples like that. Interests and hobbies have nothing to do with gender. Culture may say that you have to be either this gender or that one to participate in society this way or that, but that has nothing to do with gender. That is a socially acceptable role based on gender.

Further, at this point in time, there really isn't any requirement for humans to insist that everyone fit into neat little biological holes (which aren't that neat to begin with). The vast majority of people match their gender to their sex, and the number that don't are quite small, and do not harm or detract from the rest of society in any way. Their presence doesn't reduce reproduction rates, for example. It's a superfluous demand.

I accept transgender people. Non-binary is not transgender and is say it's imaginary. All characteristics that humans display apply to either male or female, many apply to both. But there is nothing that doesn't apply to either that humans exhibit. Such characteristics are hard to even quantify.

 

[L0neW0lf]

By simply accepting it.

Yes it does.

Indeed I am confused, because your opinions are very confusing. Saying that a gender spectrum exists by definition means the existence of more than two genders. So what you meant to say is you believe in the existance of a 'gender characteristic' spectrum.

What is now unclear is how, to you, this gender characteristic spectrum that exists relates to gender. Do you believe your gender characteristics (whatever you think those are) determine your gender? it seems given your later comments about people being simply "women with hairy chests", that you don't.

what if you produce eggs identify as a woman but express all of the gender characteristics of a man?

Than your average female and a woman. Hobbies and interests have nothing to do with gender.

But I did not say anything about hobbies and interests... You are avoiding the question so I'll ask again:

What if you produce eggs and identify as a woman but express all of the "gender characteristics" of a man?

And can you please define transgender people and how you accept their non contradictory existence within your parameters?

 

[CLAX1911]

Indeed I am confused, because your opinions are very confusing.

They really aren't.

Saying that a gender spectrum exists by definition means the existence of more than two genders.

No it doesn't.

So what you meant to say is you believe in the existance of a 'gender characteristic' spectrum.

A person may have characteristics from both sexes that doesn't make them non-binary.

What is now unclear is how, to you, this gender characteristic spectrum that exists relates to gender. Do you believe your gender characteristics (whatever you think those are) determine your gender? it seems given your later comments about people being simply "women with hairy chests", that you don't.

No I don't. I said what I thought already. But I'll repeat it for posterity. Gender is the expression of sex.

But I did not say anything about hobbies and interests...

Well you didn't say anything about what gender is. So I can only guess.

You are avoiding the question so I'll ask again:

What if you produce eggs and identify as a woman but express all of the "gender characteristics" of a man?

I doubt such a scenario exists.

And can you please define transgender people and how you accept their non contradictory existence within your parameters?

A person who suffers from gender disphoria and who can only relieve their disphoria by living as the opposite sex.

Can you please explain why you keep seeing contradiction in my opinion?

 

[Visbek]

I disagree. Gender is the expression of sex.

Except it clearly isn't.

E.g. katoey in Thailand have a gender identity of female, that does not correspond to their biological sex (male).

Just the fact that you need to try and construct an argument here shows that gender and sex are not the same thing, and do not directly correspond.

Intersex does not constitute a third sex. They represent a disability. If they aren't steril they couldn't perform a capacity in reproduction other than male or female because no other capacity exists.

Yeah, that's not what intersex means, and intersex individuals aren't always sterile.

Race most certainly is based on genes. Skin color is a secondary characteristic of race. There are other characteristics that determine race.

Again.... Race actually has very little to do with genetics.

Well those aren't ethnicities and they certainly aren't races. They are nationalities. If you are born and dwell in Ireland Scotland Wels ect. that is how you are determined to be Scottish Irish, or Welsh. You can be all of those things and be black or oriental. And your ethnicity is heavily influenced by the culture you grew up in.

They are ethnicities as well as nationalities; and at various times, those types of groupings were treated exactly the same way as race. E.g. people have all sorts of myths and assumptions about the Irish, many of which were and are extremely negative. It is also assumed that these qualities were inherent, when they are purely cultural.

However, you are essentially supporting my point -- that these types of perceptions are cultural. This includes gender roles, which as mentioned by other posters, vary greatly from one society to the next, and aren't always directly based on biological characteristics.

Africa is home to multiple races of people. Africa is also a continent like south America or Asia. So there isn't a common phenotype. There are oriental, white, black and various other blends of races that live in Africa.

Oookay....

"Oriental" is an outdated term.

I'm not referring to whites or Asians who happen to live in Africa. I'm referring to people whose recent ancestry (3-10 generations) is in sub-Saharan Africa. Or, what we colloquially refer to as "black."

In case you missed it, most Americans don't talk about Yoruba and Akan and Hutu and Xhosa and other tribal units when discussing race. They talk about "blacks," and proclaim that "all blacks are X," which doesn't match the genetic reality that sub-Saharan Africans have significantly greater genetic diversity than, for example, those of French or Japanese or native Peruvian ancestry.

I disagree. There are biological differences. It's how you can tell someone is a cross dresser. The male sex produces more testosterone so they normally appear larger. There are plenty of examples like that. Interests and hobbies have nothing to do with gender. Culture may say that you have to be either this gender or that one to participate in society this way or that, but that has nothing to do with gender. That is a socially acceptable role based on gender.

Oookay....

Biological men generally produce more testosterone than women. However, it is not the case that people become transsexuals because of hormonal imbalances. In fact, many transgender individuals take hormone supplements to better match their preferred gender.

However, just because you may notice that a certain woman has an adam's apple, or a man is lacking one, doesn't prove that "gender is based on sex." If anything, it proves the opposite, since those individuals' gender is not a match for their sex.

Further, from the perspective of gender, there are other options. At a minimum, people can be male, female, intersex, and androgynous. Since people can swap some of those gender roles, and construct others, I see little reason to insist that "gender must be based on sex."

I accept transgender people. Non-binary is not transgender and is say it's imaginary.

Oookay....

Different individuals have vastly different opinions on this. However, saying that "non-binary gender is imaginary" indicates that you don't get the point of a non-binary mindset. It doesn't matter if it is invented out of whole cloth, because gender is a social construct.

If someone wants to be androgynous, and not exhibit characteristics of any particular gender... who cares? It's their business, not yours.

 

[L0neW0lf]

Saying that a gender spectrum exists by definition means the existence of more than two genders.
No it doesn't.

But it does, this is why your posts are confusing, are you disputing the dictionary definition of the word spectrum? saying "gender spectrum" means there exists more than two variables of gender. As I have said what you meant to say that you do not believe gender exists on a spectrum,to you there are only two genders, but gender characteristics exist on a spectrum. I will refrain from quoting a dictionary. But can do so if you insist.

What is now unclear is how, to you, this gender characteristic spectrum that exists relates to gender. Do you believe your gender characteristics (whatever you think those are) determine your gender?
No I don't. I said what I thought already. But I'll repeat it for posterity. Gender is the expression of sex.

Again with your confusing posts, in your OP you said that and I quote:

And if you express the opposite genders characteristics I would say you're transgender

So what is it, do your gender characteristics determine your gender as you say in the OP or not? can you be transgender without expressing the opposite gender characteristics?

At what percentage on that gender characteristic spectrum does a person stop being one gender and starts being a trans person of the opposite gender? 60%? 90%? only when it is a 100%?

How does it follow that with the supposed existence of only two sexes, only two genders can exist? I am one person but I can express an unlimited number of opinions, why can't a male sex or a female sex "express" many different genders? the logic here does not follow.

In explaining gender, you mentioned dogs, but I am interested in slugs, what is the gender of a hermaphrodite slug? most slugs are, they produce sperm and eggs, they impregnate each other.

I doubt such a scenario exists.

Well, at least you only doubt the existence of these people, but given that you are intentionally vague about what those biological gender characteristics according to you are, I am welling to bet they do exist.


Finally and most importantly you claim to base your view on biology and science phrasing your criteria that produces a binary number of sexes quite carefully, not according to external genitalia, not according to chromosomes, but according to ability to produce sperms or eggs even if a person is sterile because the gonads are dysfunctional:

There are two sexes and they are opposite. I define sex by what reproductive material your body produces used to produce or would produce. Basically put if you produce sperm your male. If you are a sterilized male you're still male. And likewise if you produce an egg or would have done so outside of any reproductive deficiency you are female.

Where do people who have one dysfunctional testis in their scrotum and one dysfunctional ovary in their lower abdomen fit in your binary of sex? clearly according to you they can only be male or female but these people exist and according to your criteria they are neither male or female. What if they do not have a testis or an ovary instead a have mixture of both (called Ovotestes)?

As you correctly say "disability" is not a sex, but disability is not a gender either, you claim that gender is an expression of sex, according to your criteria these people are not male or female it follows with your ''logic'' that they can't be man or woman because are expression of male and female sex. These people have no gender, which is what some gender non binary people identify as.

Can you please explain why you keep seeing contradiction in my opinion?

See above.

 

[Angel]

Two sexes determined biologically. Two genders corresponding to the two sexes.
Exceptions prove a rule; they don't replace it.
Different cultures, different ways of being male and being female.
The rest, the nonsense we have to swallow today in this matter, is all political.

 

[CLAX1911]

Except it clearly isn't.

E.g. katoey in Thailand have a gender identity of female, that does not correspond to their biological sex (male).

Gender identity is more of a cultural thing. I wasn't talking about identity.

Just the fact that you need to try and construct an argument here shows that gender and sex are not the same thing, and do not directly correspond.

I didn't say they were the same thing. And occasionally they don't directly correspond, hence we have transgender people. But it's still binary.

Yeah, that's not what intersex means, and intersex individuals aren't always sterile.

Of course they aren't. But they aren't non binary.

Again.... Race actually has very little to do with genetics.

Incorrect race has everything to do with genetics.

They are ethnicities as well as nationalities; and at various times, those types of groupings were treated exactly the same way as race. E.g. people have all sorts of myths and assumptions about the Irish, many of which were and are extremely negative. It is also assumed that these qualities were inherent, when they are purely cultural.

So? Irish isn't a race it's a nationality. Just because people treated it as a race doesn't make it so. Caucasian would be the race.

However, you are essentially supporting my point -- that these types of perceptions are cultural. This includes gender roles, which as mentioned by other posters, vary greatly from one society to the next, and aren't always directly based on biological characteristics.

Gender roles are predominantly cultural I agree. But once again I'm not talking about roles we assign to people based on their gender.

Oookay....

"Oriental" is an outdated term.

Well the technical term for oriental race is mongol. But that tends to have negative connotations. Kind of like the taxonomic term for black people.

I'm not referring to whites or Asians who happen to live in Africa.

Neither was I. I was talking about Africans that are white or oriental.

I'm referring to people whose recent ancestry (3-10 generations) is in sub-Saharan Africa. Or, what we colloquially refer to as "black."

So say black people. Africans come in all races. And there are black peoplethat live in the United States that aren't African.

In case you missed it, most Americans don't talk about Yoruba and Akan and Hutu and Xhosa and other tribal units when discussing race.

That's because they aren't a race onto themselves.

They talk about "blacks," and proclaim that "all blacks are X," which doesn't match the genetic reality that sub-Saharan Africans have significantly greater genetic diversity than, for example, those of French or Japanese or native Peruvian ancestry.

What point are you trying to make here?



Oookay....

Biological men generally produce more testosterone than women. However, it is not the case that people become transsexuals because of hormonal imbalances. In fact, many transgender individuals take hormone supplements to better match their preferred gender.

Well as biological man and a transman are the only two types of men there are. And no it does not make a person transgender if they don't have all the characteristics of their gender.

However, just because you may notice that a certain woman has an adam's apple, or a man is lacking one, doesn't prove that "gender is based on sex." If anything, it proves the opposite, since those individuals' gender is not a match for their sex.

The presence of an adam's apple does not dictate gender, it is a characteristic of gender. And if you are talking about trans people having disphoria about your gender means you are uncomfortable with your gender. Meaning you want different characteristics.

Further, from the perspective of gender, there are other options. At a minimum, people can be male, female, intersex, and androgynous. Since people can swap some of those gender roles, and construct others, I see little reason to insist that "gender must be based on sex."

Intersex and androgynous are not sexes. There is only male and female. Roles are assigned by culture not gender. It's because you don't really understand what gender is. It isn't roles it isn't an identity. It's how the sexes are expressed regardless of culture. I'd you disagree with that fundamental point I believe we are at an impass.



Oookay....

Different individuals have vastly different opinions on this. However, saying that "non-binary gender is imaginary" indicates that you don't get the point of a non-binary mindset.

It can't possibly exist in a species that has binary sexes. I don't get the point of it.

 

[CLAX1911]

It doesn't matter if it is invented out of whole cloth, because gender is a social construct.

I disagree. Gender is the expression of sex. There are components that are social but there are components that are biological.

If someone wants to be androgynous, and not exhibit characteristics of any particular gender... who cares? It's their business, not yours.

I don't really care what someone calls themselves. If however sometime demands I accept their unicorn gender, it becomes my business, now words that aren't hateful ate going to be deemed as such.

Further you can't change your sexual characteristics workout surgery or hormone therapy.

 

[CLAX1911]

But it does, this is why your posts are confusing, are you disputing the dictionary definition of the word spectrum? saying "gender spectrum" means there exists more than two variables of gender. As I have said what you meant to say that you do not believe gender exists on a spectrum,to you there are only two genders, but gender characteristics exist on a spectrum. I will refrain from quoting a dictionary. But can do so if you insist.




Again with your confusing posts, in your OP you said that and I quote:



So what is it, do your gender characteristics determine your gender as you say in the OP or not? can you be transgender without expressing the opposite gender characteristics?

At what percentage on that gender characteristic spectrum does a person stop being one gender and starts being a trans person of the opposite gender? 60%? 90%? only when it is a 100%?

How does it follow that with the supposed existence of only two sexes, only two genders can exist? I am one person but I can express an unlimited number of opinions, why can't a male sex or a female sex "express" many different genders? the logic here does not follow.

In explaining gender, you mentioned dogs, but I am interested in slugs, what is the gender of a hermaphrodite slug? most slugs are, they produce sperm and eggs, they impregnate each other.




Well, at least you only doubt the existence of these people, but given that you are intentionally vague about what those biological gender characteristics according to you are, I am welling to bet they do exist.


Finally and most importantly you claim to base your view on biology and science phrasing your criteria that produces a binary number of sexes quite carefully, not according to external genitalia, not according to chromosomes, but according to ability to produce sperms or eggs even if a person is sterile because the gonads are dysfunctional:



Where do people who have one dysfunctional testis in their scrotum and one dysfunctional ovary in their lower abdomen fit in your binary of sex? clearly according to you they can only be male or female but these people exist and according to your criteria they are neither male or female. What if they do not have a testis or an ovary instead a have mixture of both (called Ovotestes)?

As you correctly say "disability" is not a sex, but disability is not a gender either, you claim that gender is an expression of sex, according to your criteria these people are not male or female it follows with your ''logic'' that they can't be man or woman because are expression of male and female sex. These people have no gender, which is what some gender non binary people identify as.


See above.

I'm sorry you're confused. I seem to be incapable of alleviating your confusion. I don't think I can make it any simpler than I have.

 

[joG]

Gender identity is more of a cultural thing. I wasn't talking about identity.

I didn't say they were the same thing. And occasionally they don't directly correspond, hence we have transgender people. But it's still binary.



Of course they aren't. But they aren't non binary.



Incorrect race has everything to do with genetics.



So? Irish isn't a race it's a nationality. Just because people treated it as a race doesn't make it so. Caucasian would be the race.

Gender roles are predominantly cultural I agree. But once again I'm not talking about roles we assign to people based on their gender.



Well the technical term for oriental race is mongol. But that tends to have negative connotations. Kind of like the taxonomic term for black people.

Neither was I. I was talking about Africans that are white or oriental. So say black people. Africans come in all races. And there are black peoplethat live in the United States that aren't African.

That's because they aren't a race onto themselves. What point are you trying to make here?



Oookay....

Well as biological man and a transman are the only two types of men there are. And no it does not make a person transgender if they don't have all the characteristics of their gender.

The presence of an adam's apple does not dictate gender, it is a characteristic of gender. And if you are talking about trans people having disphoria about your gender means you are uncomfortable with your gender. Meaning you want different characteristics.

Intersex and androgynous are not sexes. There is only male and female. Roles are assigned by culture not gender. It's because you don't really understand what gender is. It isn't roles it isn't an identity. It's how the sexes are expressed regardless of culture. I'd you disagree with that fundamental point I believe we are at an impass.



Oookay....

It can't possibly exist in a species that has binary sexes. I don't get the point of it.

Forget about the obsession with sex, worry about gender and move marriage out of the public domain. Then we are all free to fantasy and Constitutional honesty

 

[CLAX1911]

Forget about the obsession with sex, worry about gender and move marriage out of the public domain. Then we are all free to fantasy and Constitutional honesty

I forget about pipe dreams. Marriage will never move out of the public domain. Texas would rather marry two dudes than repeal state marriage. It isn't gong anywhere.