Non-binary gender identities.

[CLAX1911]

I don't know if everybody has heard of this but just to give an explanation. A non-binary gender identity is one which a person identifies as something other than male or female.

As gender politics progress it seems there are people that want to be on The Cutting Edge so much so that they will invent imaginary genders.

Haven't ever had much luck with this discussion but I'll try it here.

My position is that gender is an expression of sex. Sex exist in order for our species to reproduce. There seems to be this concept of a spectrum which I reject. There are two sexes and they are opposite. I define sex by what reproductive material your body produces used to produce or would produce. Basically put if you produce sperm your male. If you are a sterilized male you're still male. And likewise if you produce an egg or would have done so outside of any reproductive deficiency you are female. And if you express the opposite genders characteristics I would say you're transgender. I don't think chromosomes necessarily matter because there are XY women that produce eggs they are female rare as they are. And having extra chromosomes doesn't factor into it

I accept that gender can be different then sex but I don't think it's completely disconnected. Gender is how sex is expressed. There are cultural expectations for men or women boys or girls but that isn't gender that's cultural expectation. I am also not saying that there aren't outliers. These are the exceptions not the rule.

So in my opinion non-binary gender cannot exist because you're either male or female and because of that you express the gender of your sex or the opposite gender. There is no third sex because it only takes a male and a female to reproduce. Because of that and because gender is tied to sex there are no third or non-binary genders.

Agree or disagree please share your thoughts.

 

[Skeptic Bob]

Multiple non-Western cultures have long recognized more than 2 genders.

 

[ttwtt78640]

I don't know if everybody has heard of this but just to give an explanation. A non-binary gender identity is one which a person identifies as something other than male or female.

As gender politics progress it seems there are people that want to be on The Cutting Edge so much so that they will invent imaginary genders.

Haven't ever had much luck with this discussion but I'll try it here.

My position is that gender is an expression of sex. Sex exist in order for our species to reproduce. There seems to be this concept of a spectrum which I reject. There are two sexes and they are opposite. I define sex by what reproductive material your body produces used to produce or would produce. Basically put if you produce sperm your male. If you are a sterilized male you're still male. And likewise if you produce an egg or would have done so outside of any reproductive deficiency you are female. And if you express the opposite genders characteristics I would say you're transgender. I don't think chromosomes necessarily matter because there are XY women that produce eggs they are female rare as they are. And having extra chromosomes doesn't factor into it

I accept that gender can be different then sex but I don't think it's completely disconnected. Gender is how sex is expressed. There are cultural expectations for men or women boys or girls but that isn't gender that's cultural expectation. I am also not saying that there aren't outliers. These are the exceptions not the rule.

So in my opinion non-binary gender cannot exist because you're either male or female and because of that you express the gender of your sex or the opposite gender. There is no third sex because it only takes a male and a female to reproduce. Because of that and because gender is tied to sex there are no third or non-binary genders.

Agree or disagree please share your thoughts.

Reproduction potential alone does not explain the reasons for many gender related (or sexual preference) differences. As you have noted, culture plays a role in establishing gender norms, but those outside of those norms (minorities) clearly exist and have been with us since long before current cultures were formed. The LBGTXYZ labels exist mainly to identify and protect those minorities.

 

[akyron]

I self identify like a billionaire today but I feel personally offended that I cant spend tons of cash whenever I want. I want to sue the government for my planes, cash, miscellaneous industries, and a personal staff I need to manage my global affairs.

Who can I talk to about getting that all started?

The first one that says psychiatrist wins.

Amphibians can be whatever is necessary for the continuation of the species.

We should all be frogs.

 

[CLAX1911]

Multiple non-Western cultures have long recognized more than 2 genders.

So what?

 

[CLAX1911]

Reproduction potential alone does not explain the reasons for many gender related (or sexual preference) differences.

Yes, I know it really Flys in the face of the concept of many genders.

As you have noted, culture plays a role in establishing gender norms, but those outside of those norms (minorities) clearly exist and have been with us since long before current cultures were formed.

Again gender is an expression of sex not culture. People not fitting into the cultural norms creates a new or alternative culture, not a gender or sex.

The LBGTXYZ labels exist mainly to identify and protect those minorities.

Unicorns aren't part of the LGBT. Non binary isn't transgender.

 

[CLAX1911]

I self identify like a billionaire today but I feel personally offended that I cant spend tons of cash whenever I want. I want to sue the government for my planes, cash, miscellaneous industries, and a personal staff I need to manage my global affairs.

Who can I talk to about getting that all started?

The first one that says psychiatrist wins.

Amphibians can be whatever is necessary for the continuation of the species.

We should all be frogs.

See, even parodying it is difficult. Funny as it may be you can actually transition into a billionaire. You only have to earn the money.

These people are imagining things that don't exist.

So if you said you identify as a purple kangaroo from Mars than you'd be aptly parodying it.

 

[akyron]

So if you said you identify as a purple kangaroo from Mars than you'd be aptly parodying it.

And in today's world I would be in my rights to sue anyone who would dispute my purple kangarooness or go so far as to not make me a cake celebrating it.

 

[CLAX1911]

And in today's world I would be in my rights to sue anyone who would dispute my purple kangarooness or go so far as to not make me a cake celebrating it.

I don't know that anybody would refuse to make a cake for that. I've seen a cake with a spiderman on it.

 

[akyron]

I don't know that anybody would refuse to make a cake for that. I've seen a cake with a spiderman on it.

https://www.howtocookthat.net/public_html/3d-spiderman-cake-tutorial/

Pretty cool.

 

[Koke]

if people want to LARP as other "genders" that's fine with me.

But don't push your backwards "cultural revolution" on other people who are uncomfortable with it.

Also don't think people are bigoted when they don't use the correct pronoun for your new gender as an attack helicopter.

 

[KevinKohler]

First world, upper middle class, white people problems.



Tell you what. Once we solve poverty, racism, and immigration....maybe....MAYBE this could be a discussion....

 

[brothern]

So in my opinion non-binary gender cannot exist because you're either male or female and because of that you express the gender of your sex or the opposite gender. There is no third sex because it only takes a male and a female to reproduce. Because of that and because gender is tied to sex there are no third or non-binary genders.

That's not quite true - on "simplistic" terms, an individual will either inherit either a pair of XX or pair of XY sex chromosomes from their parents. We know if that individual has XY chromosomes, that the Y chromosome will spur the androgens in prenatal development that stimulate the development and maintenance of male characteristics. However if there's no Y chromosome present, the embryo will develop into a female.

However that's the simplistic version of what actually happens. In the "real world," it's messier. For example, there are chromosomal disorders that occur. An embryo may not inherit just XX or XY sex chromosomes - but may instead inherit extra copies like XXY (Klinefelter's syndrome) or even XYY chromosomes. Neither of which neatly fits the definition of "binary sexes," nor if you were to inquire of these individuals, causes them to identify as strictly male or female. What's more is that while these individuals may be rare, that does not make these people nonexistent and therefore irrelevant to your opinion.

Other issues may occur as well--in human development an embryo becomes a female if there is no Y-chromosome present. Therefore what happens if there is a Y-chromosome present, but the fetus' cells do not respond in part or even at all to the androgen? It results in an individual that has an intersex condition call AIS (Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome). These individuals may either present as female or androgynous depending on the severity of the insensitivity, but are genetically male nonetheless. Do these individuals feels that their gender identification does not exist, or that they must solely identify as male or female because "there is no third sex"?

There's a semi-famous model who just come out with having this condition recently: Hanne Gaby Odiele. Hanne is genetically male and presents as female, but identifies as neither male nor female. Though she does like 'she'. And if you are curious, Hanne does have a husband: Model Hanne Gaby Odiele on Being Intersex - Vogue

And this goes on ... there are numerous other conditions that cause blurring between sex and gender, and you may certainly add in sexuality to this as well.

 

[CLAX1911]

That's not quite true - on "simplistic" terms, an individual will either inherit either a pair of XX or pair of XY sex chromosomes from their parents. We know if that individual has XY chromosomes, that the Y chromosome will spur the androgens in prenatal development that stimulate the development and maintenance of male characteristics. However if there's no Y chromosome present, the embryo will develop into a female.

However that's the simplistic version of what actually happens. In the "real world," it get much more messy than that. For example, there are chromosomal disorders that occur. An embryo may not inherit just XX or XY sex chromosomes - but may instead inherit extra copies like XXY (Klinefelter's syndrome) or even XYY chromosomes. Neither of which neatly fits the definition of "binary sexes," nor if you were to inquire of these individuals, causes them to identify as strictly male or female. What's more is that while these individuals may be rare, that does not make these people nonexistent.

Other issues may occur as well--in human development an embryo becomes a female if there is no Y-chromosome present. Therefore what happens if there is a Y-chromosome present, but the fetus' cells do not respond in part or even at all to the androgen? It results in an individual that has an intersex condition call AIS (Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome). These individuals may either present as female or androgynous depending on the severity of the insensitivity, but are genetically male nonetheless. Do these individuals feels that their gender identification does not exist, or that they must solely identify as male or female because "there is no third sex"?

There's a semi-famous model who just come out with having this condition recently: Hanne Gaby Odiele. Hanne is genetically male and presents as female, but identifies as neither male nor female. Though she does like 'she'. And if you are curious, Hanne does have a husband: Model Hanne Gaby Odiele on Being Intersex - Vogue

And this goes on ... there are numerous other conditions that cause blurring between sex and gender, and you may certainly add in sexuality to this as well.

You must not have read my OP I addressed chromosomes.

Conditions don't cause blurring. They are conditions. They are extremely rare. A few people that want to be called ze may cite this as giving credence to their claims but it doesn't. They are still either male or female.

 

[brothern]

You must not have read my OP I addressed chromosomes.

Conditions don't cause blurring. They are conditions. They are extremely rare and they still result in male or female.

Ladies and Gentlemen, the presence of evidence that directly refutes and therefore disproves my opinion doesn't count because it's rare and exceptional.

With that said, I will now turn it back to Larry who believes that the world is flat.

 

[brothern]

They are still either male or female.

So a person like Hanne is ... ?

 

[CLAX1911]

Ladies and Gentlemen, the presence of evidence that directly refutes and therefore disproves my opinion doesn't count because it's rare and exceptional.

Nothing you posted refuted my opinion in the least. You are mentioning people with genetic or birth defects as examples of non binary gender. Regardless of chromosomes a person still has anatomy and it is either male or female. That makes it binary.

With that said, I will now turn it back to Larry who believes that the world is flat.

Sorry Larry imaginary genders are absolutely as real as a flat earth.

Reading the first paragraph of the example you linked it became clear that it was about a male person.

 

[CLAX1911]

So a person like Hanne is ... ?

"Hanne was born with internal testes, and without a uterus or ovaries."

Male obviously.

 

[brothern]

Nothing you posted refuted my opinion in the least. You are mentioning people with genetic or birth defects as examples of non binary gender. Regardless of chromosomes a person still has anatomy and it is either male or female. That makes it binary.

Primary sexual characteristics in humans are "homologues." Meaning, for example, both the testis and the ovaries are developed from the same biological structure in the fetus. The differentiation is not made in development until the second week of pregnancy. Other examples: penis and clitoris, scrotum and Labia majora, or prostate and Skene's glands.

On account of this, there is variation in intersex people between whether they have male, female or both sexual organs present.

And even in non-intersex people there is variation in the development of the sex organs.

 

[brothern]

"Hanne was born with internal testes, and without a uterus or ovaries."

Male obviously.

Even though no other male sex organs are present?

Further exploring your opinion, rather than the evidence on this matter, someone who has AIS like Hanne but was completely insensitive to androgens - is female?

 

[brothern]

Male obviously.

Further exploring your opinion, rather than the evidence on this matter, someone who has AIS like Hanne but was completely insensitive to androgens - is female?

Like ... I really want to know how is this defined? Is it a one-drop rule? If a person has even a single male sex organ, this is a male? Is it a % calculation? Points based?
In CLAX's opinion is a fully developed penis +10 pts, but the absence of a prostate is -2?

 

[CLAX1911]

Even though no other male sex organs are present?

Yes. He had testes. He most certainly didn't have a uterus or ovaries. That's one sex. He had testes and those produce sperm. He had no ovaries or uterus. So he didn't produce eggs. Being born with a defect doesn't make a third or non-binary gender. The person was clearly male.

Further exploring your opinion, rather than the evidence on this matter, someone who has AIS like Hanne but was completely insensitive to androgens - is female?

In his case he's male. In some cases they'd be female. Further reading the article the refer to Hanne as "her, and she" not "zer and ze" so clearly the person is binary.

 

[brothern]

In his case he's male. In some cases they'd be female. Further reading the article the refer to Hanne as "her, and she" not "zer and ze" so clearly the person is binary.

Well researched. The presence of a testes means that Hanne is clearly a liar and should now be referred to as "he" against her wishes. Meanwhile another XY person with the exact same condition can in some cases be "she", so it is declared.

Nevermind that persons' state of mind or perspective on the matter. Who cares?

I see that Jesus has taught you well.

 

[CLAX1911]

Like ... I really want to know how is this defined? Is it a one-drop rule? If a person has even a single male sex organ, this is a male? Is it a % calculation? Points based?
In CLAX's opinion is a fully developed penis +10 pts, but the absence of a prostate is -2?

For goodness sake read the goddamned op and then you wouldn't have to ask stupid questions answered in the OP.

I don't know if everybody has heard of this but just to give an explanation. A non-binary gender identity is one which a person identifies as something other than male or female.

As gender politics progress it seems there are people that want to be on The Cutting Edge so much so that they will invent imaginary genders.

Haven't ever had much luck with this discussion but I'll try it here.

My position is that gender is an expression of sex. Sex exist in order for our species to reproduce. There seems to be this concept of a spectrum which I reject. There are two sexes and they are opposite. I define sex by what reproductive material your body produces used to produce or would produce. Basically put if you produce sperm your male. If you are a sterilized male you're still male. And likewise if you produce an egg or would have done so outside of any reproductive deficiency you are female. And if you express the opposite genders characteristics I would say you're transgender. I don't think chromosomes necessarily matter because there are XY women that produce eggs they are female rare as they are. And having extra chromosomes doesn't factor into it

I accept that gender can be different then sex but I don't think it's completely disconnected. Gender is how sex is expressed. There are cultural expectations for men or women boys or girls but that isn't gender that's cultural expectation. I am also not saying that there aren't outliers. These are the exceptions not the rule.

So in my opinion non-binary gender cannot exist because you're either male or female and because of that you express the gender of your sex or the opposite gender. There is no third sex because it only takes a male and a female to reproduce. Because of that and because gender is tied to sex there are no third or non-binary genders.

Agree or disagree please share your thoughts.

 

[CLAX1911]

Well researched. The presence of a testes means that Hanne is clearly a liar and should now be referred to as "he" against her wishes.

I take no issue with transgender people. If Hanne wishes to be addressed as a female I'd absolutely adress her as such.

So tune down the righteous indignation and stop with the strawman arguments.

Why can't you make a point without the dishonesty?