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Nature or Nurture: Christ

Ben K.

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So there's an interesting thread here about venerating Mary.

My question is - would it matter who Jesus' human parents were? Does any part of human nurture play into the outcome? Does it matter if his mother was Mary or a random prostitute? Was his parentage relevant or random? Are Mary and Joseph "better" than other contemporary people?
 
I don't know any direct reference to it in the bible, but I believe that Mary is revered simply because she carried and birthed Jesus.
 
So there's an interesting thread here about venerating Mary.

Does it matter if his mother was Mary or a random prostitute?

Well, it certainly seems to matter to the Catholics.
What with all that Virgin Mary stuff.
Slutty Mary just wouldn't have the same impact, I would guess.
 
Well, it certainly seems to matter to the Catholics.
What with all that Virgin Mary stuff.
Slutty Mary just wouldn't have the same impact, I would guess.

No, the bible itself calls her a virgin. But that's besides the point. Des it matter if it's Mary or Mary Anne is the mother of Christ?
 
No, the bible itself calls her a virgin. But that's besides the point. Des it matter if it's Mary or Mary Anne is the mother of Christ?

Not to me.
Mary was the mother of Christ.
Her personal history is irrelevant.
I'm not sure why some Christian sects have elevated her to deification.
 
Not to me.
Mary was the mother of Christ.
Her personal history is irrelevant.
I'm not sure why some Christian sects have elevated her to deification.

So Mary was a random choice?
 
Considering what the consequences are even in 2013 of a young woman's being pregnant without benefit of marriage, much less pregnant by other than her fiance, I'd say that Joseph was an exemplary man...and stepfather.
 
Would Superman be as good without John and Martha Kent?
 
Would Superman be as good without John and Martha Kent?

No. His parents taught him right from wrong. Through them he learned about truth and justice--the American way. ;)
 
So there's an interesting thread here about venerating Mary.

My question is - would it matter who Jesus' human parents were? Does any part of human nurture play into the outcome? Does it matter if his mother was Mary or a random prostitute? Was his parentage relevant or random? Are Mary and Joseph "better" than other contemporary people?

Yes it would matter. The prophecies had foretold the Messiah would be a descendant of David, and born of a virgin. Therefore, those two requirements must be fulfilled.

Even though Mary was favored by God (just like Abraham, Moses, the Apostles etc.,), from what I understand she was an ordinary human being. The Bible stated though that God was pleased with her - she was highly favored - so this suggests she was a righteous woman.
 
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So there's an interesting thread here about venerating Mary.

My question is - would it matter who Jesus' human parents were? Does any part of human nurture play into the outcome? Does it matter if his mother was Mary or a random prostitute? Was his parentage relevant or random? Are Mary and Joseph "better" than other contemporary people?
I would say it is important because even though Jesus is God he it's also man. It is important to us because he showed us that it is possible to be a perfect person

It's one of the things that separates Christianity from other religions.

We should be thankful to Mary for taking on such a task. If she wasn't important she wouldn't have been mentioned.
 
So there's an interesting thread here about venerating Mary.

My question is - would it matter who Jesus' human parents were? Does any part of human nurture play into the outcome? Does it matter if his mother was Mary or a random prostitute? Was his parentage relevant or random? Are Mary and Joseph "better" than other contemporary people?

According to Catholic dogma, anyway, Mary was completely without sin in her lifetime before (and even after) giving birth to Christ. She had to be a perfectly pure vessel in order to carry the son of God.

That is a large part of the reason why she is revered within the Church. Next to Christ himself, she is basically held to be the most perfect human being to have ever lived.
 
Jesus amazed His elders in the temple when he was only 12, so His parents must've been pretty good homeschoolers too. ;)
 
So Mary was a random choice?

No, God CHOSE her, and partly it was due to her righteousness.

Luke 1: 29 But she was much perplexed by his words and pondered what sort of greeting this might be. 30 The angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God.
 
I never grasped the importance of Joe & Mary not having sex. Everyone had lots of sex with everyone else in those days. One has to be beyond stupid to even try to believe in a virgin birth. What did the village people have to say about it? What was Mary's proof that Joe could not get it up? And how did Joe explain it...job related stress?
 
Jesus amazed His elders in the temple when he was only 12, so His parents must've been pretty good homeschoolers too. ;)

I thought it was well established that Jesus was ignorant.
 
I would say it is important because even though Jesus is God he it's also man. It is important to us because he showed us that it is possible to be a perfect person

It's one of the things that separates Christianity from other religions.

We should be thankful to Mary for taking on such a task. If she wasn't important she wouldn't have been mentioned.

Jesus never claimed to be a perfect person.
 
According to Catholic dogma, anyway, Mary was completely without sin in her lifetime before (and even after) giving birth to Christ. She had to be a perfectly pure vessel in order to carry the son of God.

That is a large part of the reason why she is revered within the Church. Next to Christ himself, she is basically held to be the most perfect human being to have ever lived.

When and where and how did she die?
 
There's no reference I know of in the Bible that indicates Mary was sinless.

But she was a virgin and at the point of conception had never had physical relations with any man at that time. Her conception was of the Holy Spirit.

Anyone who says she was a slut is an uninformed nitwit.
 
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He claimed to be God, and that doesn't lend itself to someone who wallows in sin.

He claimed to HAVE a God

John 20:17
17 Jesus said to her, “Do not hold on to me, because I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”


God almight does not have a God.

he said In Mark 15:

34 At three o’clock Jesus cried out with a loud voice, “Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?” which means, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”

And when being accused of making himself God he refuted it.


John 10:
33 The Jews answered, “It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you, but for blasphemy, because you, though only a human being, are making yourself God.” 34 Jesus answered, “Is it not written in your law,[d] ‘I said, you are gods’? 35 If those to whom the word of God came were called ‘gods’—and the scripture cannot be annulled— 36 can you say that the one whom the Father has sanctified and sent into the world is blaspheming because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?


John 17:3
3 And this is eternal life, that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.


Jesus never claimed to be God yahweh, not once.

42 “Father, if you are willing, remove this cup from me; yet, not my will but yours be done.” [[43 Then an angel from heaven appeared to him and gave him strength.


he prayed to God, knowing that perhaps his will may be distinct from Gods, and he needed strength from God.

Btw, if you bring up the "I am" statements, remember the greek for "I am" is Ego Eimi. in Exodus 3:14 septuagent yahweh calls him self "Ho On" NOT ego eimi .... so don't try pull that here.
 
He claimed to HAVE a God

He claimed to be God.

DID JESUS CLAIM TO BE GOD?

by Josh McDowell

Among the religious leaders who have attained a large following throughout history, Jesus Christ is unique in the fact that He alone claimed to be God in human flesh. A common misconception is that some or many of the leaders of the world’s religions made similar claims, but this is simply not the case.
Buddha did not claim to be God; Moses never said that he was Yahweh; Mohammed did not identify himself as Allah; and nowhere will you find Zoroaster claiming to be Ahura Mazda. Yet Jesus, the carpenter from Nazareth, said that he who has seen Him (Jesus) has seen the Father (John 14:9).

The claims of Christ are many and varied. He said that He existed before Abraham (John 8:58), and that He was equal with the Father (John 5:17, 18). Jesus claimed the ability to forgive sins (Mark 2:5–7), which the Bible teaches was something that God alone could do (Isaiah 43:25).

The New Testament equated Jesus as the creator of the universe (John 1:3), and that He is the one who holds everything together (Colossians 1:17). The apostle Paul says that God was manifest in the flesh (I Timothy 3:16, KJV), and John the evangelist says that “the Word was God” (John 1:1). The united testimony of Jesus and the writers of the New Testament is that He was more than mere man; He was God.

Not only did His friends notice that He claimed to be God, but so did His enemies as well. There may be some doubt today among the skeptics who refuse to examine the evidence, but there was no doubt on the part of the Jewish authorities.

When Jesus asked them why they wanted to stone Him, they replied, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God” (John 10:33, NASB).

This fact separates Jesus from the other religious figures. In the major religions of the world, the teachings—not the teacher—are all-important.

Confucianism is a set of teachings; Confucius is not important. Islam is the revelation of Allah, with Mohammed being the prophet, and Buddhism emphasizes the principles of the Buddha and not Buddha himself. This is especially true of Hinduism, where there is no historic founder.

However, at the center of Christianity is the person of Jesus Christ. Jesus did not just claim to be teaching mankind the truth; He claimed that He was the truth (John 14:6).

What Jesus taught is not the important aspect of Christianity, but what is important is who Jesus was. Was He the Son of God? Is He the only way a person can reach God? This was the claim He made for Himself.

Suppose this very night the President of the United States appeared on all the major networks and proclaimed that “I am God Almighty. I have the power to forgive sin. I have the authority to raise my life back from the dead.”

He would be quickly and quietly shut off the air, led away, and replaced by the Vice-President. Anybody who would dare make such claims would have to be either out of his mind or a liar, unless he was God.

This is exactly the case with Jesus. He clearly claimed all these things and more. If He is God, as He claimed, we must believe in Him, and if He is not, then we should have nothing to do with Him. Jesus is either Lord of all or not Lord at all.

Yes, Jesus claimed to be God. Why should anyone believe it? After all, merely claiming to be something does not make it true. Where’s the evidence that Jesus is God?

The Bible gives various reasons, including miracles and fulfilled prophecy, that are intended to convince us that Jesus is the one whom He said He was (John 20:30, 31). The main reason, or the sign which Jesus Himself said would demonstrate that He was the Son of God, was His resurrection from the dead.

When asked for a sign from the religious leaders, Jesus replied, “For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the whale, so will the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth” (Matthew 12:40, RSV).

In another place He said, when asked for a sign, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up… but he spake of the temple of his body” (John 2:19, 21, KJV). The ability to raise His life back from the dead was the sign that separates Him not only from all other religious leaders, but also from anyone else who has ever lived.

Anyone wishing to refute the case for Christianity must explain away the story of the resurrection. Therefore, according to the Bible, Jesus proves to be the Son of God by coming back from the dead (Romans 1:4). The evidence is overwhelming that Jesus did rise from the grave, and it is this fact that proves Jesus to be God.

http://www.josh.org/resources/study...skeptics-questions/did-jesus-claim-to-be-god/
 
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There's a reason trinitarians almost always say scriptures are saying something without quoting the scripture itself, we'll see why.

He claimed to be God.

DID JESUS CLAIM TO BE GOD?

The claims of Christ are many and varied. He said that He existed before Abraham (John 8:58), and that He was equal with the Father (John 5:17, 18). Jesus claimed the ability to forgive sins (Mark 2:5–7), which the Bible teaches was something that God alone could do (Isaiah 43:25).

John 8:58 56 Your ancestor Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day; he saw it and was glad.” 57 Then the Jews said to him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?”[k] 58 Jesus said to them, “Very truly, I tell you, before Abraham was, I am.”

Doesn't necessitate Jesus being Yahweh at all does it?

. 17 But Jesus answered them, “My Father is still working, and I also am working.” 18 For this reason the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because he was not only breaking the sabbath, but was also calling God his own Father, thereby making himself equal to God.

Jesus didn't claim to be equal, some of the Jews said he was trying to make himself equal ... but Jesus responded to that.

in vrs 19

19 Jesus said to them, “Very truly, I tell you, the Son can do nothing on his own, but only what he sees the Father doing
vrs 26

26 For just as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself; 27 and he has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of Man.

vrs 30
30 “I can do nothing on my own. As I hear, I judge; and my judgment is just, because I seek to do not my own will but the will of him who sent me.

Exactly, he DID'NT CLAIM equality with God, he was accused of that and he answered.

Mark 2: 5-7 (lets make it to 10)
5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven.” 6 Now some of the scribes were sitting there, questioning in their hearts, 7 “Why does this fellow speak in this way? It is blasphemy! Who can forgive sins but God alone?” 8 At once Jesus perceived in his spirit that they were discussing these questions among themselves; and he said to them, “Why do you raise such questions in your hearts? 9 Which is easier, to say to the paralytic, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Stand up and take your mat and walk’? 10 But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins”—he said to the paralytic—


They say only God has the right to forgive sins .... Jesus says So does the son of man, he doesn't say "yes you're right and I am God," he says they are wrong and God AND the son of man have that right.

Isaiah 43:25
25 I, I am He
who blots out your transgressions for my own sake,
and I will not remember your sins.


Does NOT say GOd alone can forgive sins ....

The New Testament equated Jesus as the creator of the universe (John 1:3), and that He is the one who holds everything together (Colossians 1:17). The apostle Paul says that God was manifest in the flesh (I Timothy 3:16, KJV), and John the evangelist says that “the Word was God” (John 1:1). The united testimony of Jesus and the writers of the New Testament is that He was more than mere man; He was God.

John 1:3
3 All things came into being through him,


... THROUGH HIM ....

John 1:1 .... The word was god .... we've gone over the greek grammer here before ... the second use of theos has no article, the first one does, this is the ONLY time this is done in the bible .... If you want to debate it we can, but I don't think you can.

Colossians 1:17 (lets start in vrs 15)
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16 for in[h] him all things in heaven and on earth were created, things visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or powers—all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He himself is before all things, and in him all things hold together.


He is the IMAGE of God (as was Adam), and the FIRSTBORN of all creation .... i.e. Not Yahweh.

When Jesus asked them why they wanted to stone Him, they replied, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God” (John 10:33, NASB).

How did Jesus respond? I ALREADY QUOTED IT IN MY LAST POST.

John 10:
33 The Jews answered, “It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you, but for blasphemy, because you, though only a human being, are making yourself God.” 34 Jesus answered, “Is it not written in your law,[d] ‘I said, you are gods’? 35 If those to whom the word of God came were called ‘gods’—and the scripture cannot be annulled— 36 can you say that the one whom the Father has sanctified and sent into the world is blaspheming because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?


He says they are wrong, he does not claim to be God, he is Gods Son ... even Judges and angels call themselves God.

Logicman have some respect for scripture for once and read the verses you cite before you post them, and know what you're posting, don't try and post lies because you won't get away with it, and lies from someone else you post YOU are responsible for .... now maybe you can respond to the scriptures I posted, I won't hold me breath, I know you cannot.
 
There's a reason trinitarians almost always say scriptures are saying something without quoting the scripture itself, we'll see why.

John 8:58 56 Your ancestor Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day; he saw it and was glad.” 57 Then the Jews said to him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?”[k] 58 Jesus said to them, “Very truly, I tell you, before Abraham was, I am.”

Doesn't necessitate Jesus being Yahweh at all does it?

. 17 But Jesus answered them, “My Father is still working, and I also am working.” 18 For this reason the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because he was not only breaking the sabbath, but was also calling God his own Father, thereby making himself equal to God.

Jesus didn't claim to be equal, some of the Jews said he was trying to make himself equal ... but Jesus responded to that.

in vrs 19

19 Jesus said to them, “Very truly, I tell you, the Son can do nothing on his own, but only what he sees the Father doing
vrs 26

26 For just as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself; 27 and he has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of Man.

vrs 30
30 “I can do nothing on my own. As I hear, I judge; and my judgment is just, because I seek to do not my own will but the will of him who sent me.

Exactly, he DID'NT CLAIM equality with God, he was accused of that and he answered.

Mark 2: 5-7 (lets make it to 10)
5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven.” 6 Now some of the scribes were sitting there, questioning in their hearts, 7 “Why does this fellow speak in this way? It is blasphemy! Who can forgive sins but God alone?” 8 At once Jesus perceived in his spirit that they were discussing these questions among themselves; and he said to them, “Why do you raise such questions in your hearts? 9 Which is easier, to say to the paralytic, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Stand up and take your mat and walk’? 10 But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins”—he said to the paralytic—


They say only God has the right to forgive sins .... Jesus says So does the son of man, he doesn't say "yes you're right and I am God," he says they are wrong and God AND the son of man have that right.

Isaiah 43:25
25 I, I am He
who blots out your transgressions for my own sake,
and I will not remember your sins.


Does NOT say GOd alone can forgive sins ....

John 1:3
3 All things came into being through him,


... THROUGH HIM ....

John 1:1 .... The word was god .... we've gone over the greek grammer here before ... the second use of theos has no article, the first one does, this is the ONLY time this is done in the bible .... If you want to debate it we can, but I don't think you can.

Colossians 1:17 (lets start in vrs 15)
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16 for in[h] him all things in heaven and on earth were created, things visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or powers—all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He himself is before all things, and in him all things hold together.


He is the IMAGE of God (as was Adam), and the FIRSTBORN of all creation .... i.e. Not Yahweh.

How did Jesus respond? I ALREADY QUOTED IT IN MY LAST POST.

John 10:
33 The Jews answered, “It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you, but for blasphemy, because you, though only a human being, are making yourself God.” 34 Jesus answered, “Is it not written in your law,[d] ‘I said, you are gods’? 35 If those to whom the word of God came were called ‘gods’—and the scripture cannot be annulled— 36 can you say that the one whom the Father has sanctified and sent into the world is blaspheming because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?


He says they are wrong, he does not claim to be God, he is Gods Son ... even Judges and angels call themselves God.

Logicman have some respect for scripture for once and read the verses you cite before you post them, and know what you're posting, don't try and post lies because you won't get away with it, and lies from someone else you post YOU are responsible for .... now maybe you can respond to the scriptures I posted, I won't hold me breath, I know you cannot.


Take a break. I'm not buying your Jehovah's Witness style nonsense. Jesus is God and virtually every major denomination around recognizes it.
 
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