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Natural rights

The only rights that a person has are those which other people bigger and stronger than them allow them to have.

The people whoe are bigger and stronger can certainly use force to infringe upon your free exercise of your rights, but they cannot take them. No one can grant them, no one can take them away. The free exercise thereof can be infringed upon by outside force, but outside force can affect any system. An object either remains at rest or continues to move at a constant velocity, unless acted upon by an external force. So external force can infringe upon the exercise of rights, but because rights exist it gives legitimacy to the resistance of that external force.

A government that infringes too grievously for too long against the exercise of rights and liberties of its People may properly be disposed of, a new one created. Why? If might makes right, there’s never legitimate call to refute the actions of a tyrant. But rights give legitimacy to the actions against these infringements. Surely it’s not always universally successful, and there are many instances of people living enslaved and abused; but that doesn’t mean that rights do not exist. There’s no need for any sort of god to grant them, all it takes is intelligence and reason to understand and discover them.
 
The people whoe are bigger and stronger can certainly use force to infringe upon your free exercise of your rights, but they cannot take them. No one can grant them, no one can take them away. The free exercise thereof can be infringed upon by outside force, but outside force can affect any system. An object either remains at rest or continues to move at a constant velocity, unless acted upon by an external force. So external force can infringe upon the exercise of rights, but because rights exist it gives legitimacy to the resistance of that external force.

A government that infringes too grievously for too long against the exercise of rights and liberties of its People may properly be disposed of, a new one created. Why? If might makes right, there’s never legitimate call to refute the actions of a tyrant. But rights give legitimacy to the actions against these infringements. Surely it’s not always universally successful, and there are many instances of people living enslaved and abused; but that doesn’t mean that rights do not exist. There’s no need for any sort of god to grant them, all it takes is intelligence and reason to understand and discover them.
That is a semantics distinction. Looks and sounds wonderful as a matter of theory and idealism. Meanwhile, back in the real world...
 
That is a semantics distinction. Looks and sounds wonderful as a matter of theory and idealism. Meanwhile, back in the real world...

It's philosophy, actually, and the basis of many things from morals to justice. A right cannot be taken away, the exercise of a right can be infringed upon, but the right always remains. It's how we gain legitimacy to resisting certain forms of force.

I think the biggest problems people have with Natural Rights comes down to their abstract nature. You don't hold rights in the palm of your hands, you can't show them to other people, it's not a concrete thing. But humans evolved brains capable of understanding the concrete and abstract, and philosophy has become a powerful tool in understanding some basics of human nature and equality. Is there no such thing as freedom? Is there no such thing as justice? These are all abstract ideas, yet they exist and we know they do. Freedom can be infringed up, justice can too. But it doesn't mean these things don't exist.

Likewise with rights, natural rights are innate and inalienable. Just because the exercise of them can be infringed upon by outside for doesn't mean that they don't exist.
 
can you tell why we have a government
Not sure where you're going with this.

A government facilitates order, at it's base function. *How* it provides order, whether by limited control and respecting "rights" or totalitarianism or something in between, varies. Simply by choosing a limited approach said government entity, which is usually bigger and stronger than you, has chosen which "rights" you get to enjoy.

Practical reality.
 
Not sure where you're going with this.

A government facilitates order, at it's base function. *How* it provides order, whether by limited control and respecting "rights" or totalitarianism or something in between, varies. Simply by choosing a limited approach said government entity, which is usually bigger and stronger than you, has chosen which "rights" you get to enjoy.

Practical reality.

ask yourself this, if the government made no laws /regulations would it exist?

laws/regulations are made to secure the rights of people.

law secures rights of people concerning murder, fraud, robbery, and other things.

regulations protect people rights from say death, pain and suffering from products

if no government existed only the strong would rule and the weak would be their servants because the strong would suppress their natural rights from being exercised

federalist 51 - If men were angels, no government would be necessary.
 
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ask yourself this, if the government made no laws /regulations would it exist?

laws/regulations are made to secure the rights of people.

law secures rights of people concerning murder, fraud, robbery, and other things.

regulations protect people rights from say death, pain and suffering from products

if no government existed only the strong would rule and the weak would be their servants because the strong would surpass their natural rights from being exercised

federalist 51 - If men were angels, no government would be necessary.
Laws and regulations vary from one government entity to the next. What you get is chosen for you. To change it you have two choices, diplomacy or force. There is no point here that you think there is.
 
Laws and regulations vary from one government entity to the next. What you get is chosen for you. To change it you have two choices, diplomacy or force. There is no point here that you think there is.

if the government made no laws /regulations would it exist?...no it would not.

what do laws and regulations do, they protect the rights of individuals, business, and the public at large, so the government is securing for the people their rights.

but all governments are not the u.s. and some governments suppress its people.


federalist 51 - If men were angels, no government would be necessary.

if man was an angel and did not seek to hurt his follow man we would not need any government because man could work out his problems with his follow man.

but man cannot and fight amongest themselves and that is the purpose of government
 
Tell me ecofarm, where exactly do you get your ideas on natural rights? I have never seen you say anything on natural rights that is remotely correct, so I would love for you to answer where in the hell you're getting your information.

Hey, we'd all like to see where any of you are getting your information from, other than straight out of your ass.
 
So far, in this entire thread, I have yet to see anybody show that 'Natural Rights' and 'Natural Laws' exist, except as philosophical concepts about 'the world ought to be this way'. There seems to be no way to distinguish a 'natural law' from opinion.
 
So far, in this entire thread, I have yet to see anybody show that 'Natural Rights' and 'Natural Laws' exist, except as philosophical concepts about 'the world ought to be this way'. There seems to be no way to distinguish a 'natural law' from opinion.

Ding ding ding! We have a winnah!
 
if the government made no laws /regulations would it exist?...no it would not.

what do laws and regulations do, they protect the rights of individuals, business, and the public at large, so the government is securing for the people their rights.

but all governments are not the u.s. and some governments suppress its people.


federalist 51 - If men were angels, no government would be necessary.

if man was an angel and did not seek to hurt his follow man we would not need any government because man could work out his problems with his follow man.

but man cannot and fight amongest themselves and that is the purpose of government


A family on its own braves the dangers of the unknown and reaches an unpopulated and unclaimed tract of land on the prairie with no other humans within a hundred miles. He sets up a homestead and farms the land. The only 'government' that exists for that family are the rules set by the adults of the family and the expectations the members put on each other.

A second family moves into the area and there is sharing back and forth, mutual management of livestock, etc. And there is an understanding that each will respect the other's property, and help the other out when needed. This is the beginning of social contract.

As more farmers and ranchers move into the area they also work things out with their neighbors and become part of the informal social contract

Finally there are enough people to support a general store selling groceries, feed, fabric, tools, etc. Then a blacksmith sets up shop. Somebody opens a small café. And a town is created that attracts merchants delivering products and wares to the businesses and there is a market for a small hotel and livery stable.

But with increased population comes some increased mischief and a lure for thieves and such. As a practical matter, the towns folks and farmers get together and agree to hire a town constable to check on properties and deal with trouble makers. Then they form a volunteer fire department. In time the town grows to where a shared water system becomes prudent. They work out a system of shared roads. And they mutually agree to hire a mayor to oversee and manage the shared services and a clerk to receive the necessary revenues, register deeds to properties, issue marriage licenses, etc. A judge is elected to settle suits and hear legal proceedings.

All this is done by social contract; i.e. a mutual agreement by which a society organizes itself and conducts its affairs. The government is fully the servant of and responsive to the needs of the people and does not have authority to make things happen on its own. In time the town would be incorporated and become part of the larger network of communities and the state.

When American government at the federal, state, and local level operated under the social contract concept--the Constitution for instance was a social contract for the mutual benefit of all--the government recognized and protected, as much as it could, the people's natural rights. And the government did not tread on those rights.

But once the government was seen as its own entity and was allowed authority to pick winners and losers, favor one group over another, and make laws those in government wanted to have, we have had increasing violations of our natural rights ever since. If the trend continues, we will be just another European country where the government assigns the people whatever rights it wants them to have and the people have little or no say at all in that.
 
if the government made no laws /regulations would it exist?...no it would not.

what do laws and regulations do, they protect the rights of individuals, business, and the public at large, so the government is securing for the people their rights.

but all governments are not the u.s. and some governments suppress its people.


federalist 51 - If men were angels, no government would be necessary.

if man was an angel and did not seek to hurt his follow man we would not need any government because man could work out his problems with his follow man.

but man cannot and fight amongest themselves and that is the purpose of government
It doesn't have to be a government, it could be your neighbor in a government-less society.

You might have the right to plant tomatoes on your property, but if you're neighbor comes over and beats the crap out of you every time you try, to the point that you are afraid and give up, then your fantasy right is meaningless. You, effectively, no longer have the right to plant tomatoes on your own property.
 
It doesn't have to be a government, it could be your neighbor in a government-less society.

You might have the right to plant tomatoes on your property, but if you're neighbor comes over and beats the crap out of you every time you try, to the point that you are afraid and give up, then your fantasy right is meaningless. You, effectively, no longer have the right to plant tomatoes on your own property.

Or, you'd be justified in beating the crap out of him when he tries to initiate force against your free exercise of rights.
 
Or, you'd be justified in beating the crap out of him when he tries to initiate force against your free exercise of rights.
Sorry, you're missing the point. (Intentionally?) If you could do that, then you'd be the bigger stronger person and you'd be dictating the other guy's rights, by either literally dictating them or leaving him alone and allowing him to have his.
 
Sorry, you're missing the point. (Intentionally?) If you could do that, then you'd be the bigger stronger person and you'd be dictating the other guy's rights, by either literally dictating them or leaving him alone and allowing him to have his.

Sorry, you're missing the point. (Intentionally?). The bigger, stronger person isn't necessarily the instigator. It's possible to protect your own without taking from others. Just because force can be used to infringe upon the rights of people doesn't mean that rights don't exist. The form the basis for the limitation of force against an individual.
 
So far, in this entire thread, I have yet to see anybody show that 'Natural Rights' and 'Natural Laws' exist, except as philosophical concepts about 'the world ought to be this way'. There seems to be no way to distinguish a 'natural law' from opinion.

Exist? Yes, that's problematic, a misnomer. Tough to replace it though. Maybe "natural rights are true". Sounds kind lame, but maybe more accurate.

Take three propositions:

Country music should be played everywhere.
1+1=2
right to life is a natural right

Do you really think that just because none of these "exists", that they are therefore indistinguishable, and/or devoid of useful meaning that does describe reality? I disagree.

Try doing generic mathematics without arithmetic. Why is so much of math discovered from simple principles, and can tell us so much about reality?
Similarly, when we talk about rights, natural rights are part of that foundation.

For example, list 20 rights that an individual may have (nothing tricky, just generic). Now, without life, how many of those rights have meaning/relevance?
None. How about WITH natural rights. All of them.
Can you say the same about "the right to eat chocolate on Wednesday"? No.

At least one natural right has thus been distinguished from opinion, and demonstrated as a fundamental of any reasonable discussion of individual rights.
 
You, effectively, no longer have the right to plant tomatoes on your own property.

That's absurd. You can or you cannot plant tomatoes. That is all the person affects.
The right to plant tomatoes is a matter of law, or self-evident...in this case its a matter of law.

If every time you try to write 1+1=2, your neighbor comes over and erases 2 and writes 3, it doesn't change arithmetic.
 
Sorry, you're missing the point. (Intentionally?). The bigger, stronger person isn't necessarily the instigator. It's possible to protect your own without taking from others. Just because force can be used to infringe upon the rights of people doesn't mean that rights don't exist. The form the basis for the limitation of force against an individual.
It loses it's effectiveness if you parrot the person you're responding to.


That's absurd. You can or you cannot plant tomatoes. That is all the person affects.
The right to plant tomatoes is a matter of law, or self-evident...in this case its a matter of law.

If every time you try to write 1+1=2, your neighbor comes over and erases 2 and writes 3, it doesn't change arithmetic.
For you it does. You can know in your mind and/or heart it's not right, as in kosher, but if you cannot stop him there's nothing you can do about it.
 
For you it does. You can know in your mind and/or heart it's not right, as in kosher, but if you cannot stop him there's nothing you can do about it.

No it doesn't. Nor does force erase rights. The fact is that the initiation of force in that case is unjust. No amount of force can make tyrannical uses of it just. Might makes right arguments say just that. If you have the force, you are in the right, your actions are just. Even if one is oppressed, they still have rights, and one under tyrannical rule is justified in the resistance of that force. And if one can't do anything about it, it doesn't mean the force is just.
 
No it doesn't. Nor does force erase rights. The fact is that the initiation of force in that case is unjust. No amount of force can make tyrannical uses of it just. Might makes right arguments say just that. If you have the force, you are in the right, your actions are just. Even if one is oppressed, they still have rights, and one under tyrannical rule is justified in the resistance of that force. And if one can't do anything about it, it doesn't mean the force is just.
Never said or insinuated it was just. It just is.
 
Never said or insinuated it was just. It just is.

Lots of people get very hung up on the idea of justice and never stop to think that justice is an artificial concept that really doesn't stop anyone from doing whatever they want.
 
It loses it's effectiveness if you parrot the person you're responding to.For you it does. You can know in your mind and/or heart it's not right, as in kosher, but if you cannot stop him there's nothing you can do about it.

No, you're confusing the language.

You effectively cannot plant tomatoes.
You legally maintain the right.
You can seek legal action, or should we say, seek justice, by virtue of your right being violated.

Why is this being questioned, I don't see anything in here controversial, this isn't even about natural rights, jesus!
 
So far, in this entire thread, I have yet to see anybody show that 'Natural Rights' and 'Natural Laws' exist, except as philosophical concepts about 'the world ought to be this way'. There seems to be no way to distinguish a 'natural law' from opinion.


Natural rights are rights that exist under Natural law. Natural law is a body of moral principles derived from reason and human nature. In a State of Nature all rights exist and none are protected which makes it a very fearful and insecure place to exist. In a state of society people give up some of their natural rights (ie: right to kill, steal, enslave, rape, etc.) to have the state protect their other rights (ie: life, liberty and pursuit of prosperity).
 
Natural rights are rights that exist under Natural law. Natural law is a body of moral principles derived from reason and human nature. In a State of Nature all rights exist and none are protected which makes it a very fearful and insecure place to exist. In a state of society people give up some of their natural rights (ie: right to kill, steal, enslave, rape, etc.) to have the state protect their other rights (ie: life, liberty and pursuit of prosperity).

And, if you read what I specifically said, I don't see any evidence that 'Natural Law' is anything but the opinion of 'this is what ought to be'. It's nothing but a man made concept that , to me, has no meaning.
 
And, if you read what I specifically said, I don't see any evidence that 'Natural Law' is anything but the opinion of 'this is what ought to be'. It's nothing but a man made concept that , to me, has no meaning.



In that context, everything is a man made concept...including God. Does moral law have any meaning to you?
 
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