Nationl Debt Tops $22 Trillion

[Conservative]

I don't like what you post, and therefore i will continue to refute your partisan when i catch them. Don't like it? Do a better job as a member of DP. The fact remains. You are a known liar who will say anything to push their partisan agenda.

The line item on federal expenditures does not show interest expense to be $523 billion. You pushed that lie because you don't know any better and it makes it easier to accept the deficit growth during GOP controlled government.

Hypocrisy is all you have left.

Think I care what you like? Take it up with Treasury. Deficit for 2018 was due mostly to interest expense and entitlement spending. That is a fact!!

The highest lie is your lean

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

 

[OrphanSlug]

First of all thank you very much for the detailed explanation and I will deal with it in detailed later as I'm not at my computer I will however refute your comments about the deficit going up because it only went up 17% in 2018 and all of that was due to Debt Service because of 4 interest rate hikes and mandatory entitlement spending cost of living raises.

Fact remains debt service is the 4th largest budget item and provides the least return to the taxpayer as it is funded by the taxpayers or by more borrowing or printing money

Trump tax cuts led to increased federal revenue, increased state and local sales tax revenue because of consumer spending, increased f i c a because of the job creation, increased charitable contributions, increased excise taxes. More revenue doesn't cause deficits

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

You are missing the point.

We have no reason to increase the deficit when the economy is in an expansion mode, and in this case the net increases to spending are being drowned out by decreases in expected tax revenues. Tax cuts are going to cause a bigger budget concern than people are willing to admit.

You claim that mandatory entitlement spending is the reason for budget expansion yet ignore that since 2003 our defense spending has doubled, and Trump's wants for military spending for FY 2018 and FY 2019 will break records. $874.6 billion in FY 2018, and $886.5 billion in FY 2019. It was $437.5 billion in 2003.

That is going up far faster than entitlement spending costs or servicing debt because of rate hikes.

And BTW, even the CBO suggests both Bush 43's tax cuts and Trump's tax cuts will not be recouped. Which means additions straight to Debt held by the Public and Total Debt, the point of this thread that we have topped $22 Trillion. The concept of boosting economic growth and the tax base via tax cuts for the rich is not realized, what is realized is less than 20% of those tax cuts will ever be regained and all of it with the idiocy of not considering when we will have the next economic downturn. The tax cuts are at the wrong time for the wrong reason, and the result is new additional Debt held by the Public during economic times when there is no reason for new additional Debt held by the Public. I was not kidding before, we are breaking debt auction records now with $1 trillion dollar additions each year for as long as we can project.

The only possible conclusion is these tax cuts absent spending cuts mean immediate deficits and additions to Debt held by the Public. Revenue expectations ends up on some other line of growth but only after an immediate drop from the existing line, that means immediate net new additions to deficits.

You are even pointing out that servicing debt is a large part of the budget but fail to acknowledge that Intergovernmental Debt is not the reason, it is additions to Debt held by the Public resulting in Total Debt going up all of which end up with different costs than Intergovernmental Debt. Go look at the CBO numbers on servicing Intergovernmental Debt vs. Debt held by the Public. On a trend line the cost of servicing Intergovernmental Debt is going down, yet Debt held by the Public is breaking record auction levels and that points to even more future costs in servicing new issued Debt held by the Public. You also tend to ignore that Intergovernmental Debt these days accounts for roughly 26% of our Total Debt, but in terms of "service of that debt" the percentage is even lower. Those Government Ran Funds are not the problem.

All of that ends up as budget pressure, and Trump's idea is coming up with another tax cut? So much for all those campaign promises.

From FY 2009 to FY 2015 deficits were headed downward, taxation was not harming aggregate demand, and we were and still are seeing economic expansion. FY 2015 to FY 2017 was already seeing upward trend in deficit condition, but Trump escalating the matter with an unneeded tax cut for the wealthy will impact FY 2018 forward. All deficit increase impacting, and at a time when the next economic downturn is right around the corner. $22 Trillion will be a footnote when that happens.

 

[Conservative]

You are missing the point.

We have no reason to increase the deficit when the economy is in an expansion mode, and in this case the net increases to spending are being drowned out by decreases in expected tax revenues. Tax cuts are going to cause a bigger budget concern than people are willing to admit.

You claim that mandatory entitlement spending is the reason for budget expansion yet ignore that since 2003 our defense spending has doubled, and Trump's wants for military spending for FY 2018 and FY 2019 will break records. $874.6 billion in FY 2018, and $886.5 billion in FY 2019. It was $437.5 billion in 2003.

That is going up far faster than entitlement spending costs or servicing debt because of rate hikes.

And BTW, even the CBO suggests both Bush 43's tax cuts and Trump's tax cuts will not be recouped. Which means additions straight to Debt held by the Public and Total Debt, the point of this thread that we have topped $22 Trillion. The concept of boosting economic growth and the tax base via tax cuts for the rich is not realized, what is realized is less than 20% of those tax cuts will ever be regained and all of it with the idiocy of not considering when we will have the next economic downturn. The tax cuts are at the wrong time for the wrong reason, and the result is new additional Debt held by the Public during economic times when there is no reason for new additional Debt held by the Public. I was not kidding before, we are breaking debt auction records now with $1 trillion dollar additions each year for as long as we can project.

The only possible conclusion is these tax cuts absent spending cuts mean immediate deficits and additions to Debt held by the Public. Revenue expectations ends up on some other line of growth but only after an immediate drop from the existing line, that means immediate net new additions to deficits.

You are even pointing out that servicing debt is a large part of the budget but fail to acknowledge that Intergovernmental Debt is not the reason, it is additions to Debt held by the Public resulting in Total Debt going up all of which end up with different costs than Intergovernmental Debt. Go look at the CBO numbers on servicing Intergovernmental Debt vs. Debt held by the Public. On a trend line the cost of servicing Intergovernmental Debt is going down, yet Debt held by the Public is breaking record auction levels and that points to even more future costs in servicing new issued Debt held by the Public. You also tend to ignore that Intergovernmental Debt these days accounts for roughly 26% of our Total Debt, but in terms of "service of that debt" the percentage is even lower. Those Government Ran Funds are not the problem.

All of that ends up as budget pressure, and Trump's idea is coming up with another tax cut? So much for all those campaign promises.

From FY 2009 to FY 2015 deficits were headed downward, taxation was not harming aggregate demand, and we were and still are seeing economic expansion. FY 2015 to FY 2017 was already seeing upward trend in deficit condition, but Trump escalating the matter with an unneeded tax cut for the wealthy will impact FY 2018 forward. All deficit increase impacting, and at a time when the next economic downturn is right around the corner. $22 Trillion will be a footnote when that happens.

No, it is you missing the point there is no way we would have the economic growth and expansion without the tax cuts and that is proven time and time again. You don't seem to have the understanding of the components of GDP with consumer spending being the biggest by far. The tax cuts have impacted state and local revenue as well so the issue will always be the role of the gov't and buying of votes by the politicians. We don't need a 4.4 trillion dollar federal gov't but politicians want the power and control thus no budget, just more spending through continuing resolutions.

For some reason this is always about taxpayers keeping more of what they earn, class envy and jealousy. Only the radical left believes we would have this kind of economic activity when consumers have less spendable income. Record low and historic low interest rates keep debt service low and that helped reduce the deficit but over 600 billion still is way too high and declining deficits mean absolutely nothing other than skewing the actual debt

Record consumer spending generated record state and local tax revenue and that should be enough to return all social programs excluding SS and Medicare to the states. That in itself will lower the spending thus coupled with continued economic growth reduce the debt

You want to focus on reducing deficits, great, but reduced deficits still added 9.3 trillion to the debt during the Obama term

 

[Dittohead not!]

again where does personal responsibility rest in that world in which you live? No demand not regulation necessary. We have to stop bailing people out for poor personal choices. The nanny state doesn't work

Who, exactly, do you think got bailed out by the "nanny state?" People lost their homes. No one bailed them out. it was the big banks that got bailed out by big daddy government, not the individual.

 

[Conservative]

Who, exactly, do you think got bailed out by the "nanny state?" People lost their homes. No one bailed them out. it was the big banks that got bailed out by big daddy government, not the individual.

I didn't support TARP but did point out that it was TARP not Obama that brought us out of recession although TARP rewarded bad behavior and just kicked the can down the road. The point remains personal responsibility is a lost issue on far too many today. that is reality

 

[Dittohead not!]

I didn't support TARP but did point out that it was TARP not Obama that brought us out of recession although TARP rewarded bad behavior and just kicked the can down the road. The point remains personal responsibility is a lost issue on far too many today. that is reality

What you say about personal responsibility may be true, but it has nothing to do with the recession, with TARP, with Obama, Trump, or that 22 trillion dollar debt that the latter seems inclined to increase.

 

[Conservative]

What you say about personal responsibility may be true, but it has nothing to do with the recession, with TARP, with Obama, Trump, or that 22 trillion dollar debt that the latter seems inclined to increase.

Then you explain what caused the recession if not people who bought houses with adjustable rates that they couldn't afford, greed of others both of which are personal responsibility issues.

 

[OrphanSlug]

No, it is you missing the point there is no way we would have the economic growth and expansion without the tax cuts and that is proven time and time again. You don't seem to have the understanding of the components of GDP with consumer spending being the biggest by far. The tax cuts have impacted state and local revenue as well so the issue will always be the role of the gov't and buying of votes by the politicians. We don't need a 4.4 trillion dollar federal gov't but politicians want the power and control thus no budget, just more spending through continuing resolutions.

For some reason this is always about taxpayers keeping more of what they earn, class envy and jealousy. Only the radical left believes we would have this kind of economic activity when consumers have less spendable income. Record low and historic low interest rates keep debt service low and that helped reduce the deficit but over 600 billion still is way too high and declining deficits mean absolutely nothing other than skewing the actual debt

Record consumer spending generated record state and local tax revenue and that should be enough to return all social programs excluding SS and Medicare to the states. That in itself will lower the spending thus coupled with continued economic growth reduce the debt

You want to focus on reducing deficits, great, but reduced deficits still added 9.3 trillion to the debt during the Obama term

What stats do you have to support that tax cuts have paid for themselves?

 

[phattonez]

Trump inherited this mess from Obama

Reagan was a banker's best friend.

 

[Kushinator]

I'm not seeing the difference here.

How unfortunate, because there is a rather distinct difference between paying entitlements, federal employees, contractors, etc... and firms that invest in enhancing the productivity of their operations.

My point is that nothing gets produced without money.

People and businesses typically don't work for free. Government spending can increase aggregate demand. Government spending however cannot create wealth, because it lacks a feasible production mechanism. Private industry is paid money to complete projects and contracts for the government. Private industry creates wealth. Government spending, at best, can simply increase aggregate demand.

Does this create wealth in and of itself? Not in my opinion.

 

[Kushinator]

Take it up with Treasury.

The Treasury isn't the problem, it's your lack of understanding that continues to render your replies as useless wastes of time. But make no mistake, other people (because you seem incapable) get to learn from your mistakes. And there are thousands upon thousands of examples.

Deficit for 2018 was due mostly to interest expense and entitlement spending. That is a fact!!

That is false. Revenue growth fell after the tax cuts:

 

[Mircea]

US News: National debt tops $22 trillion for first time, after Trump tax cut

There is no national debt, comrade.

Perhaps you're referring to the federal debt?

Out of curiosity, did Useless Today publish a story proclaiming "National Debt Tops $4 TRILLION First Time Ever?"

How many times during the Obama Administration did Useless Today publish such articles?

 

[Conservative]

The Treasury isn't the problem, it's your lack of understanding that continues to render your replies as useless wastes of time. But make no mistake, other people (because you seem incapable) get to learn from your mistakes. And there are thousands upon thousands of examples.



That is false. Revenue growth fell after the tax cuts:

That is a lie as 2018 data will be released on February 28th will show that tax revenue did indeed increase

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

 

[JohnfrmClevelan]

Does this create wealth in and of itself? Not in my opinion.

The way I see it, as long as you have sufficient demand, industry will invest what it needs to in order to meet that demand and earn that money. I'm probably taking a shortcut here, but I'm sure you get the point.

 

[Conservative]

What stats do you have to support that tax cuts have paid for themselves?

Don't need any stats as tax cuts or people keeping more of what they earn isn't an expense thus don't have to be paid for.

 

[Kushinator]

The way I see it, as long as you have sufficient demand, industry will invest what it needs to in order to meet that demand and earn that money. I'm probably taking a shortcut here, but I'm sure you get the point.

Sufficient demand equates to the creation of some kind of shortage(s). At some point in the near future, we are going to run into oversupply issues, a time where business failure escalates labor market deterioration.

Do you believe our seemingly perpetual future deficits will prevent this from happening?

 

[Conservative]

What stats do you have to support that tax cuts have paid for themselves?

Have you ever looked at a financial statement? The biggest operating expenses of any business is payroll and that payroll has to be paid for. Do you believe the American taxpayers are employees of the Federal Gov't? If they are then their pay is an expense, if not it isn't so what is there to pay for?

 

[Kushinator]

First and foremost, you've still failed to acknowledge your previous lie regarding how much interest on debt was the line item for fiscal year 2018. I have proven to you it's roughly $320 billion, and you continue to spout a false figure of $560 billion. Why have you continued to post this lie even after having been corrected at least a dozen times?

That is a lie

The Bureau of Economic Analysis isn't lying... you're just acting foolish.

as 2018 data will be released on February 28th will show that tax revenue did indeed increase

Did tax revenue increases at previous levels? That's the point!!! You claimed record consumption would lead to enough economic growth necessary to make up for any revenue losses from the tax cut. Now that reality has painted you a much bigger picture, reliance on ignorance has rendered each of your responses entirely lacking of merit. They have been dismissed... not because you accept it, but because you have yet to refute A SINGLE POINT I'VE MADE. Not even one....

 

[Kushinator]

Have you ever looked at a financial statement? The biggest operating expenses of any business is payroll and that payroll has to be paid for. Do you believe the American taxpayers are employees of the Federal Gov't? If they are then their pay is an expense, if not it isn't so what is there to pay for?

You are making magical leaps of logic that lead to absurdity!

If we look at real disposable personal income growth, it has stalled:

And yet... the deficit grows under the guidance of a Republican controlled federal government.

 

[Conservative]

First and foremost, you've still failed to acknowledge your previous lie regarding how much interest on debt was the line item for fiscal year 2018. I have proven to you it's roughly $320 billion, and you continue to spout a false figure of $560 billion. Why have you continued to post this lie even after having been corrected at least a dozen times?



The Bureau of Economic Analysis isn't lying... you're just acting foolish.



Did tax revenue increases at previous levels? That's the point!!! You claimed record consumption would lead to enough economic growth necessary to make up for any revenue losses from the tax cut. Now that reality has painted you a much bigger picture, reliance on ignorance has rendered each of your responses entirely lacking of merit. They have been dismissed... not because you accept it, but because you have yet to refute A SINGLE POINT I'VE MADE. Not even one....

You truly are an arrogant leftwing radical who focuses on minutia and not the real issue which is the 2018 deficit was due mostly to interest expense, does it matter how much the interest expense is? I posted Treasury data, you don't like it, take it up with them.

Like most radicals you are clueless about the private sector and totally ignore state and local gov't responsibility. Your belief that the federal gov't needs more revenue totally ignores the waste, fraud, abuse and fact that bureaucrats spend money to buy votes and have brainwashed you and others into believing we need a 4.4 trillion dollar federal gov't. To you it is important that federal revenue increase as you continue to reward those who created the 22 trillion dollar debt. Why would you ever support more dollars going to the bureaucrats until they explain the debt and what they are doing about it? You want tax increases which take money out of the pockets of the consumers. That will impact the largest component of GDP, affect state and local revenue. where do states get their money when the federal gov't takes more of it?

Reality, interest expense is the fourth largest budget item and generates the worst return on taxpayer spending.

 

[Conservative]

You are making magical leaps of logic that lead to absurdity!

If we look at real disposable personal income growth, it has stalled:

And yet... the deficit grows under the guidance of a Republican controlled federal government.

I suggest a civics class so you learn how the Congress works. A lot of comments have been given regarding the Obama reduction in the deficit, when exactly did that happen, Republican or democratic congress?

 

[JohnfrmClevelan]

Sufficient demand equates to the creation of some kind of shortage(s). At some point in the near future, we are going to run into oversupply issues, a time where business failure escalates labor market deterioration.

Do you believe our seemingly perpetual future deficits will prevent this from happening?

Can you explain what you are asking (and your assumptions) more clearly? Not sure what you are asking here.

 

[Kushinator]

You truly are an arrogant leftwing radical

Blah blah blah blah. Nobody ****ing cares what you think.

the 2018 deficit was due mostly to interest expense, does it matter how much the interest expense is?

Since when does accuracy of ones statement matter? :lamo

It matters if it was mostly due to interest expense!!! For fiscal year 2018, the line item expense grew by $62 billion while the fiscal deficit grew by $124 billion.

In fiscal year 2017, total revenue was $3.644 trillion.

In fiscal year 2018, total revenue was $3.654 trillion... or a $10 billion increase! That's 0.27% That doesn't even begin to make up for the loss of purchasing power due to inflation (BTW, do you know how to calculate that loss? Nope).

How does this work out in your head??? Donny promises to balance budgets, cut taxes, grow the economy, and all we get is a $790 billion deficit, 3% rGDP growth for ONE year, and $1 trillion deficits as far as the eye can see.

Thanks Donny! :thumbdown

I posted Treasury data, you don't like it, take it up with them.

You posted the wrong Treasury data. That's not their fault you are too ignorant to know what these data sets actually measure.

Like most radicals you are clueless about the private sector and totally ignore state and local gov't responsibility.

Blah blah blah, nobody ****ing cares.

Your belief that the federal gov't needs more revenue totally ignores the waste, fraud, abuse and fact that bureaucrats spend money to buy votes and have brainwashed you and others into believing we need a 4.4 trillion dollar federal gov't.

This is not my belief. You are just lying again because you've lost and it's all you have to offer along with hypocrisy and ignorance.

To you it is important that federal revenue increase as you continue to reward those who created the 22 trillion dollar debt.

No it is not!!!! To me, it is important federal revenue increase just on the basis of inflation alone. Then we have to take on the fact that our country continues to grow, and that government will grow as a result. You may not agree... but that's too bad. That is the reality. And when we slash our ability to generate sufficient revenue to reduce the deficit in growth times, we will be equally ****ed when the next recession hits.

You want tax increases which take money out of the pockets of the consumers.

No i do not. If you increase taxes on the most wealthy individuals, they won't face an impending budgetary constraint requiring reduced consumption. You don't know what i want, but like to talk about it.

Why do you continue to ignore my statements, quote me, and then absurdly go on a rant about what i (kushinator) want? That's not a response... it's a waste of time. But i do have fun pointing this out to you and the forum.

Reality, interest expense is the fourth largest budget item

This is the one honest (segment) thing you've written.

You lose again.

 

[Kushinator]

Can you explain what you are asking (and your assumptions) more clearly? Not sure what you are asking here.

I'm not making any assumptions.

Unless you believe we have suddenly solved the business cycle, the U.S. economy is poised to enter a recession around 2020-2021 (my estimate is that in q2 2021, we will be in a full recession).

Do you understand what demand means?

 

[Kushinator]

I suggest a civics class so you learn how the Congress works. A lot of comments have been given regarding the Obama reduction in the deficit, when exactly did that happen, Republican or democratic congress?

The which party has control of congress argument fails. Perhaps you'd like to try again?