NARRATIVE FAIL: Minorities, LGBT Community, Women Show Up In Force At Pro-Gun Rally

[Rich2018]

I couldn't disagree with you more on this issue. An electronic system has no physical trail if a recount is needed....

Yes an electronic voting system would provide an electronic audit trail

And we'd never need to have a recount if the vote was recorded digitally

I'm sure Micro-Soft could design such a system that's safe and secure

I think you are missing the point. Hardship or laziness has nothing to do with it. The point is in a free society you can choose not to participate if you wish.

This is where we disagree.

You can't choose not to participate in the justice/jury system

I think they same is true of voting

It should be made a duty not an optional right.

 

[Samwise]

You can't choose not to participate in the justice/jury system

Oh I can't wait to get selected for jury duty.

 

[Chillfolks]

Yes an electronic voting system would provide an electronic audit trail

Not really. If the electronic system has a glitch, as all electronics do from time to time, there is no way to compare it to anything. I vote for candidate A but the system fouls up ans counts that vote for candidate B there is nothing to compare it to. Not if the say glitch happens but you have a paper ballot there is a way to fix the discrepancy by comparing the paper ballot totalls verse what the computer totals are.

And we'd never need to have a recount if the vote was recorded digitally

Agian you are ignoring the simple fact computers sometimes fail or have errors. If these electronic systems work so well why was there so much confusion in Iowa?

I'm sure Micro-Soft could design such a system that's safe and secure

You're sure the same companies that have their current products hacked and can be subject to ransomware can somehow miraculously design a perfect system that they are unable to design currently. Come on man at least try to stay in the realm of reality.

This is where we disagree.

You can't choose not to participate in the justice/jury system

I think they same is true of voting

It should be made a duty not an optional right.

You are right we do disagree. Having the government dictate what rights you must exercise is a bad idea. The same power that could allow them to force someone to participate in an election is the same power that coild force everyone to own a gun.

 

[Rich2018]

Oh I can't wait to get selected for jury duty.

You mean you haven't yet ?

Why do you think that is ?

Are you not a registered voter ?

 

[Chillfolks]

Oh I can't wait to get selected for jury duty.

The one time I was called to serve we had a death in the family so got out of even having to show up. Never been selected again.

 

[Samwise]

You mean you haven't yet ?

I have.

Why do you think that is ?

See above.

Are you not a registered voter ?

No.

 

[Rich2018]

Not really.

Then design it bug free and thoroughly test it until you're satisfied it works

If banks can use computers to count money, states can use them to count votes

Agian you are ignoring the simple fact computers sometimes fail or have errors. If these electronic systems work so well why was there so much confusion in Iowa?

Iowa had / has an overly complex system

You're sure the same companies that have their current products hacked and can be subject to ransomware can somehow miraculously design a perfect system that they are unable to design currently.

How do you know it can't be designed currently ?

Are not the nuclear launch protocols not computerized, is not the DoD or NORAID ?

Having the government dictate what rights you must exercise is a bad idea. The same power that could allow them to force someone to participate in an election is the same power that coild force everyone to own a gun.

Yes it is but it's not forcing anyone to vote, merely attend...if they don't want to vote they simply walk straight out after registering their attendance


It transforms the right to vote into a duty to participate. Like you have to participate in the justice system.
People bitch about it but few seriously object in principle.

 

[Rich2018]

I have.

See above.

No.

Then why do you say you can't wait ?

 

[Samwise]

Then why do you say you can't wait ?

Because I can't wait. I thought that's what I said.

 

[Chillfolks]

Then design it bug free and thoroughly test it until you're satisfied it works

If banks can use computers to count money, states can use them to count votes

Um... banks do make errors. The machines used to count money simply count the bills ran threw them. They don't differentiate between the denominations the way an election differentiates between candidates.

Iowa had / has an overly complex system

And you think any electronic system wouldn't be overly complicated?

How do you know it can't be designed currently ?

Because there is nothing currently available. Do you think they got some magicla bug free system in a vault that they refuse to use?

Are not the nuclear launch protocols not computerized, is not the DoD or NORAID ?

Yes and they have had glitches in the past. But luckily the paper procedures to fall back on helped advert disaster.

Yes it is but it's not forcing anyone to vote, merely attend...if they don't want to vote they simply walk straight out after registering their attendance

No one should be forced to participate is the point. Full stop end of discussion.

It transforms the right to vote into a duty to participate. Like you have to participate in the justice system.
People bitch about it but few seriously object in principle.

You sure like to screw around with peoples rights. Is it because no one let you be team captain growing up or listened to anything you had to say? Is that why you want to use the power of the government to force people to do as you want now?

 

[Samwise]

If banks can use computers to count money, states can use them to count votes

Sarbanes-Oxley

 

[RF667799]

Do you even know what an Equivocation Fallacy is ?




Both take courage


You take the meaning of "courage" to mean gallantry or valor


It's a different context, different meaning. Hence you fallacy.

Yes Rich. You've already explained that committing suicide by hanging takes the same sort of courage as ripping off a band aid or cleaning up a pile of puppy ****.

Why do you seem to take offense at me simply taking note of your positions, only to repeat them again, yourself?

 

[Rich2018]

Yes Rich. You've already explained that committing suicide by hanging takes the same sort of courage as ripping off a band aid or cleaning up a pile of puppy ****.

Correct same sort of courage

 

[Rich2018]

Sarbanes-Oxley

Explain

Because I can't wait. I thought that's what I said.

But you said you've already served on a jury, so that makes no sense

 

[Rich2018]

Double post

 

[Rich2018]

Um... banks do make errors...

So do people counting by hand, in fact you can count on it (pardon the pun)

And you think any electronic system wouldn't be overly complicated?

No, I don't

It's used all over the world:

Electronic voting - Wikipedia

Because there is nothing currently available...

See above

Yes and they have had glitches in the past. But luckily the paper procedures to fall back on helped advert disaster.

Source ?

No one should be forced to participate is the point. Full stop end of discussion.

But people should be forced to devote a whole week or more participating in the justice system ?

Bit of a contradiction there.

To make justice work we need participation
To make democracy work, we don't need participation.

You sure like to screw around with peoples rights. Is it because no one let you be team captain growing up or listened to anything you had to say? Is that why you want to use the power of the government to force people to do as you want now?

No more so that other countries have done.
Why is the slight inconvenience to couch potatoes and issue for you ?
You wouldn't spare them jury service would you ?

 

[Chillfolks]

So do people counting by hand, in fact you can count on it (pardon the pun)




No, I don't

It's used all over the world:

Electronic voting - Wikipedia





See above




Source ?




But people should be forced to devote a whole week or more participating in the justice system ?

Bit of a contradiction there.

To make justice work we need participation
To make democracy work, we don't need participation.



No more so that other countries have done.
Why is the slight inconvenience to couch potatoes and issue for you ?
You wouldn't spare them jury service would you ?

It all boils down to I beleive people should be free to choose if they want to participate or not. You dont want people to have that freesom. Im not sure why you hate freedom so much but you do.

 

[Samwise]

Explain

I already have, in post #336

But you said you've already served on a jury, so that makes no sense

How does it make no sense?

 

[goldkam]

what nonsense. You ignore the fact that our society has over 400 million guns.

Not nonsense a valid proposition. I don't ignore it, I am stating that the more guns and people issue is a primary problem within this entire situation. Can you please provide a valid reason why there needs to be more guns than people? It displays a complete and utter mismatch of priorities. This is particularly the case when healthcare is a mess, the education system is backward and that 40 million Americans live below the poverty line.

What exactly do you want to propose in terms of laws. And why is it that gun control as "crime control"is almost always a leftwing solution?

There are a number of starting points which can be built off. Firstly closing the loop hole in background checks for private gun shows. Secondly raising the minimum age to 21, to add on to this mismatch of priorities a 16 year old can drive on their own, an 18 year old can purchase a firearm, yet a 20 year old cannot check in to many hotels across the USA nor can they drink.

Another starting point is the mismatch in priorities and objectives between states and the federal governments creating an environment where the priorities of law makers are guised by unintentional miscommunications and party politics. Finally a 'royal commission' of sorts (like that of Australia, Canada and UK) should be utilised to investigate current laws and provide recommendations.

This is all with the inevitable goal of moving towards stricter laws on usage, ownership and a curbing of the sheer number of firearms in the US, in an implementation of laws like that of UK, Japan, Australia, NZ, India etc.

trying to compare societies that have traditionally oppressed the rights of citizens to be armed are not comparable.

Quite frankly you are wrong. Have you been to any of those countries, or could you tell me where any of those countries are???

Owning a gun is not a right in those countries its a privilege because they don't have this odd and unhealthy obsession with firearms.

When you claim there is a Loop (hole) at Gun shows, you demonstrate you really have an extremely limited understanding of gun laws.

Or I demonstrate a valid point that you don't like.

So your telling me that its alright to be able to go to a private gun show and purchase a firearm without any checks? Use your common sense.

 

[goldkam]

Focusing on the bolded portion. Should we raise the age that one ia considered an adult to age 21? If you don't thibk an 18 year old is responsible enough tonown a gun then IMO they are not responsible enough to vote nor are they responsible enough to enter into a contract. I have a hard time saying an 18 year old is responsible enough to use a fully automatic rifle in the military but can't own a single shot hunting rifle.

Given the current situation that is existent I believe it is completely and utterly justified to make this proposition. To be more specific with this obviously limitations would exist in areas of sports and employment and provisions would have to be made.

I don't understand how raising the age of firearm ownership to 21 suddenly means thats the age a person is considered an adult changes. Additionally a firearm holds very different responsibilities to voting or entering into a contract.

 

[RF667799]

No, I think we need to add names and addresses and make it mandatory for a firearm user to record a change in ownership.

I like the British idea of digitally recording a "finger print" of all guns by firing a number of rounds through the barrel.

The idea is that if a gun crime is committed, law enforcement can see who owns the gun (as much as is technically possible)
Or if a home is burgled and firearms take, law enforcement knows what is missing and the gun can be marked as "illegal" - so if it's subsequently bought, law enforcement go get it, return it to it's owner and possibly trace the thief.

Perhaps this registration scheme and assignment of legal title can be done on-line. We should make things as convenient as possible if we are going to expect gun thieves and buyers of stolen guns to comply with such schemes.

 

[RF667799]

Correct same sort of courage

Right. The sort of courage illustrated by, "Oh you were so brave! Here's a lollipop!"

Hardly seems to be the effect you were pursuing when you first claimed that suicide by hanging required courage and determination as opposed to suicide by gun, though....

 

[RF667799]

To your first point:

You manipulate and morph the reality of things for your own gain, with the inability to exercise common sense.

Gun control is implemented to see changes to the overall rate of gun deaths/injuries and if changes are seen in other areas that is a bonus. Put simply for you gun deaths seek to reduce the rate of deaths and induced induced by a gun.

Your analogy is absolutely and utterly flawed...to prove this lets apply it to another situation. It is like stating we have implemented new laws to keep drivers safer on the roads, yet the number of people drowning on our beaches is increasing. You need to link causation accurately something you have not done.


To your second point:

What laws do I want? Laws that are actually going to work. More cohesive background checks that will cover private gun shows. Laws that restrict who can purchase firearms, to create a greater framework around ownership. Increase the minimum age to 21 to stop the complete mismatch of priorities (an 18 year old can own a firearm but cannot check into many hotels in the US nor can drink alcohol).

The point is laws like those in NZ, UK, Japan, India, Australia, Italy are the ones that represent success in curbing the number of firearms, usage and number of casualties. It creates a safer environment and has and will continue to protect people in a more effective way.

To your last point:

I don't understand your stand point. They were suicides so suddenly guns aren't an issue. Do you understand a human managed to get a gun and take their own life?? That is an issue which must be addresses and until this oversaturation of firearms is fixed and laws are made much tighter they will continue to be able to access firearms.

Am I correct in assuming you aren't pushing for a complete ban on guns?

If so, may I ask how many guns you figure it takes for someone to shoot himself?

 

[Rich2018]

It all boils down to I beleive people should be free to choose if they want to participate or not. You dont want people to have that freesom. Im not sure why you hate freedom so much but you do.

You don't want people to have that freedom with regard to the justice process either do you not ?
Isn't a gross contradiction to allow an opt out in the voting process ?

 

[Rich2018]

Right. The sort of courage illustrated by, "Oh you were so brave! Here's a lollipop!"

Evocation fallacy

Hardly seems to be the effect you were pursuing when you first claimed that suicide by hanging required courage and determination as opposed to suicide by gun, though....

Does it ?

Explain how.