My incredibly unpopular view on trans people

[dairyair]

That is a pretty weak argument. There are no laws ascribing what I can wear. You are talking about social pressure and stigma. Those exist because there are a lot of people who value the gender normative stereotypes. There is now also social pressure and stigma related to the political correctness of not ascribing to gender normative stereotypes. Seems like a silly thing to me. "My social construct is more important than your social construct."

To the person and that person only. In beliefs. But may not be true in what a person actually feels.

 

[dairyair]

No, actually it isn't. That you are unaware of certain events that we have seen in ALL media, shows how far away you have been from awareness of what is going on.

Why DO you think the APA decided to issue a statement as strong and public regarding these matters ?



Again, why DO you think the APA decided to issue a statement as strong and public regarding these matters ?

Because a little girl decided to play with a GI Joe, or a little boy decided to try on mommies underwear, doesn't mean parents should get their child treated with hormones to try to recreate their child into the incorrect gender.

That is a pretty clueless statement, IMO, about what is reality.

 

[captaintrips]

That is a pretty clueless statement, IMO, about what is reality.

It is the reality we are in today.

That you are unaware of this shows that you aren't paying attention.

Again, why DO you think the APA decided to issue a statement as strong and public regarding these matters ?

the warning in the American Psychological Association's APA Handbook on Sexuality and Psychology as to children:

Premature labeling of gender identity should be avoided. Early social transition (i.e., change of gender role, such as registering a birth-assigned boy in school as a girl) should be approached with caution to avoid foreclosing this stage of (trans)gender identity development. - see post # 14

 

[Lisa]

No]Bad title - Wikipedia, actually it isn't. That you are unaware of certain events that we have seen in ALL media, shows how far away you have been from awareness of what is going on.

Why DO you think the APA decided to issue a statement as strong and public regarding these matters ?




Again, why DO you think the APA decided to issue a statement as strong and public regarding these matters ?

Because a little girl decided to play with a GI Joe, or a little boy decided to try on mommies underwear, it doesn't mean parents should get their child treated with hormones to try to recreate their child into the incorrect gender.[/QUOTE]Who told that this is happening?

They were never transgendered. Who told you that they were or that some doctor prescribes hormones to anyone under the age of 12?

The fact that the entire process is driven by the transgdered person with the counsel of psychologists and endocrinologists and not by the parents seems to be beyond your grasp. Nobody can be forced to take hormones against their will or undergo counseling. It is abuse of they tried to force them.

 

[dairyair]

It is the reality we are in today.

That you are unaware of this shows that you aren't paying attention.

Again, why DO you think the APA decided to issue a statement as strong and public regarding these matters ?

So, you have proof, a child says today I want to be X or Y gender, and tomorrow, the parent oblige with hormone therapy?

A girl plays with GI joe doll and the parent rush to a doctor for hormone therapy?

Show proof.

Maybe you're explaining it wrong, or I'm not understanding your statement.

But I don't see parents rushing kids into hormone therapy because a girl plays with GI Joe or a boy plays with Barbie.

 

[Lisa]

So, you have proof, a child says today I want to be X or Y gender, and tomorrow, the parent oblige with hormone therapy?

A girl plays with GI joe doll and the parent rush to a doctor for hormone therapy?

Show proof.

Maybe you're explaining it wrong, or I'm not understanding your statement.

But I don't see parents rushing kids into hormone therapy because a girl plays with GI Joe or a boy plays with Barbie.

1.) The parents don't make those treatment decisions.

2.) Hormones and blockers aren't administered until after significant psychologist testing and counseling (2-4 months) and they aren't given until they are in their early teens when their CIS friends are also beginning to mature at puberty.

 

[Good4Nothin]

Okay, so I have gotten a lot of flak from liberals and conservatives on my view on trans people. I have some friends on Facebook who are trans and we have had some nasty arguments before. To boil it down I think the whole trans thing is stupid but for the complete opposite reason that the traditionalists take issue with it.

Here is the deal...pretty much all gender normative stereotypes are culture specific. What does that mean? Well pretty much if you can think of a gender specific behavior that is masculine or feminine then you can find historical examples where the opposite gender has practiced it.

Men wore makeup in ancient Egypt. Men wore skirts in Scotland. Men shaved they legs in Ancient Rome. Men wore corsettes in Europe. And it goes on and on. Every example you can think of gender normative behavior is socially constructed.

So trans people who are fixated on "being" the opposite gender tend to be people who are fixated stereotypes of gender, not real differences in gender. Wearing a dress or using lipstick are cultural specific signifiers of gender, not anything that is innate or historically universal.

That isn't to say there are not significant neurological differences between men and women. There are, but there are probably more significant differences between how liberals and conservatives think than there are between how men and women think. Because of how we stereotype gender we tend to over accentuate the differences, but if I gave someone a stack of anonymous completed surveys that measured factors of personality, intelligence, aptitude, and values, there is very little chance they would be able to sort them into a pile for men and pile for women based on the results of each survey.

So in essence I see the whole trans thing as a social construct in response to the social construct of gender normative stereotypes.

I basically agree with you. I think undergoing surgery and taking hormones for life is a terrible health risk, and it's really for nothing.

But I do think there are some real male/female differences that are not cultural. Men are more aggressive, more violent. They evolved to be the defenders of the tribe. Women are more nurturing -- they evolved to take care of babies and children.

But still, there is no reason to "transition" to the other sex. For one thing, most of the time trans people look unnatural. Women with wide shoulders, narrow hips and angular faces. Short men with narrow shoulders and wide hips. But also, we have a lot of freedom in our society now. If you want to be a non-traditional male or females, you can be. Some people will give you a hard time, but many will accept you.

It is MUCH healthier to live as a non-traditional male or female than to take hormones for life. And it is TERRIBLE that they now give puberty blocking drugs to young children, preventing them from developing naturally.

 

[dairyair]

1.) The parents don't make those treatment decisions.

2.) Hormones and blockers aren't administered until after significant psychologist testing and counseling (2-4 months) and they aren't given until they are in their early teens when their CIS friends are also beginning to mature at puberty.

I know that.

But it's obvious, many in this thread don't know that.

 

[dairyair]

I basically agree with you. I think undergoing surgery and taking hormones for life is a terrible health risk, and it's really for nothing.

But I do think there are some real male/female differences that are not cultural. Men are more aggressive, more violent. They evolved to be the defenders of the tribe. Women are more nurturing -- they evolved to take care of babies and children.

But still, there is no reason to "transition" to the other sex. For one thing, most of the time trans people look unnatural. Women with wide shoulders, narrow hips and angular faces. Sort men with narrow shoulders and wide hips. But also, we have a lot of freedom in our society now. If you want to be a non-traditional male or females, you can be. Some people will give you a hard time, but many will accept you.

It is MUCH healthier to live as a non-traditional male or female than to take hormones for life. And it is TERRIBLE that they now give puberty blocking drugs to young children, preventing them from developing naturally.

The 1800s and earlier are a long time ago.

We live in a greater more advanced society today.

Testosterone does tend to make one more aggressive.

But, even in men, the level of testosterone varies.

Some women have more testosterone than men. And vice versa. With men/women and estrogen.

Hormones to play a role in how one feels. IMO.

 

[Good4Nothin]

I'll assume that you're of the male gender just for demonstrative purposes. Could you, as a male, imagine living your life being considered and accepted by society as a whole as being female? Could you wear the clothes a woman wears or join all women team sports, could you apply for a job and check the box for gender as 'female'. In other words, could you imagine yourself living your entire life feeling entirely disconnected and naturally alien to every fiber of your emotional being as a human because you were born with male genitalia?

You have completely misinterpreted transsexuals. They are not "fixated at being the opposite sex", they are the opposite sex. They live their true gender in the same way you live yours, which happens to be male. If you were forced to live as a female you would not be happy because that's not who you are. They are making difficult social choices to live in their own personal identity, it's as simple as that. Gender doesn't always correspond with birth sex.

But maybe their feeling that they are the opposite sex is just a fantasy. We have no reason to think the feeling of being male or female is anything more than social programming. Maybe a trans male looked up to his mother, but not his father. So he identified himself as being more like a female than a male.

We really do not know. The experts do not know. As usual, they pretend to know.

 

[maquiscat]

Okay, so I have gotten a lot of flak from liberals and conservatives on my view on trans people. I have some friends on Facebook who are trans and we have had some nasty arguments before. To boil it down I think the whole trans thing is stupid but for the complete opposite reason that the traditionalists take issue with it.

Here is the deal...pretty much all gender normative stereotypes are culture specific. What does that mean? Well pretty much if you can think of a gender specific behavior that is masculine or feminine then you can find historical examples where the opposite gender has practiced it.

Men wore makeup in ancient Egypt. Men wore skirts in Scotland. Men shaved they legs in Ancient Rome. Men wore corsettes in Europe. And it goes on and on. Every example you can think of gender normative behavior is socially constructed.

So trans people who are fixated on "being" the opposite gender tend to be people who are fixated stereotypes of gender, not real differences in gender. Wearing a dress or using lipstick are cultural specific signifiers of gender, not anything that is innate or historically universal.

That isn't to say there are not significant neurological differences between men and women. There are, but there are probably more significant differences between how liberals and conservatives think than there are between how men and women think. Because of how we stereotype gender we tend to over accentuate the differences, but if I gave someone a stack of anonymous completed surveys that measured factors of personality, intelligence, aptitude, and values, there is very little chance they would be able to sort them into a pile for men and pile for women based on the results of each survey.

So in essence I see the whole trans thing as a social construct in response to the social construct of gender normative stereotypes.

I'm going to disagree. There is a difference between gender and gender expression. Given that there are people who are claiming a given gender but expressing traits stereotyped to the other gender (as opposed to claiming a gender opposite their sex), it seems gender is an innate trait, but how one expresses don't necessarily follow social expectations.

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[Good4Nothin]

True. What is a "typical woman"?

Wants to have babies. Is loving and nurturing. Not extremely competitive. Likes to be admired for her beauty.

But many women deviate from that to some degree.

 

[Good4Nothin]

Then what is a transgender women?

It's a mythological creature, dreamed up by the politically correct.

 

[Good4Nothin]

Could I adopt a whole new set of gender stereotypes? Yes. Wearing a dress or lipstick or shaving my legs or wearing high heels would not change who I am as a person. That stuff is a costume. My masculinity is a costume. We are all ascribing to gender specific stereotypes that are just cultural constructs. Would I emotionally identify with those things the same way a trans person would? Probably not. But there are men who are really hyped up on being masculine but that doesn't mean I would be comfortable that way either.

If true gender is what you feel then there are over 7 billion genders. You notice how the list of gender pronouns has been getting longer as time has gone on? That is because people are slowly becoming aware of how socially constructed the whole concept is.

I agree. I have tried to explain to them here that our gender is part of our social persona, an act we play to get along in society. When I am alone, I don't think about my gender. It's just part of the act.

And if we didn't have those little gender symbols next to our usernames here, no one would guess I am female.

 

[Lursa]

It's a mythological creature, dreamed up by the politically correct.

You seem to Wan...t to believe that but the medical and psychology communities disagree, their research shows it's more than just politically correct.

 

[Good4Nothin]

Female brain and male body. Obviously, the mind takes precedence over the body.

We have absolutely no reason to think that can happen. We have no reason to think the brain can be simply male or female.

 

[HumblePi]

But maybe their feeling that they are the opposite sex is just a fantasy. We have no reason to think the feeling of being male or female is anything more than social programming. Maybe a trans male looked up to his mother, but not his father. So he identified himself as being more like a female than a male.

We really do not know. The experts do not know. As usual, they pretend to know.

There's little research into the genetic markers that create a gender inside someone's brain and it may be many decades before science figures that one out, but it most definitely a genetic marker, a chromosomal variation (which may arise due to mutation or alteration in the genomic loci) that will be discovered. It's not in the way they 'think', it's genetically built into who they are at a base cellular level.

 

[Good4Nothin]

What is a "female mind"? As I stated in my post, while there are neurological differences between the genders, they are not so significant as to be distinguishable from one another in just about any metric. What possible test could you give somebody that would discern whether their mind is male or female?

I would say your definition is proving my point. A trans person is making the decision that their mind is a particular gender based on the only thing they have to compare it to, the gender stereotypes constructed by their culture. A "female mind" is a mind that identifies with the things one's culture has denoted are feminine.

Yes. And it's sad that they think this requires medical intervention. Our medical industry has convinced people they can do anything. A young child feels he/she is the wrong gender -- don't worry, doctors can fix you.

Young children imagine all kinds of things. They are not mature enough to make this decision.

I know of a transgender child whose (very liberal) parents allowed her/him to live as a male. He was given puberty blocking drugs, and then sex hormones. He is 5 foot two, and has wide hips. He will never look like a natural man.

If this little girl had been allowed to grow up normally, she might have outgrown the "gender dysphoria." That is what happens most of the time. She might have wound up being a lesbian. But now days, who cares? It's better to be a normal healthy homosexual than to torture your body with drugs and hormones. And wind up not looking male or female, but something in between.

 

[Lisa]

I know that.

But it's obvious, many in this thread don't know that.

I'm also not sure where they get these outlandish claims but I'm starting to get the impression that this is a common talking point on conservative media outlets.

 

[Good4Nothin]

Yes, dressing as a male is your 'costume' but you're comfortable wearing that assigned costume because it says 'I am a male'. If you were forced by society to wear heels and lipstick it would also feel like a costume but one that screams 'I am not this'. Your masculinity is not a costume at all, it is what you are, what you were meant to be. A person that's transsexual identifies with something other than the gender a doctor assignment them at birth.

You can keep on saying that, but that doesn't make it true. Where is the evidence that "who we are " is either male or female?

I identify with the female stereotype at times, and with the male stereotype at other times. Most times I don't identify with either.

And, as I said before, if there wasn't a little pink female symbol on my description you would never assume I am female.

 

[Lisa]

It's a mythological creature, dreamed up by the politically correct.

I think that Renae and thousands of others women will disagree with you.

 

[HumblePi]

But maybe their feeling that they are the opposite sex is just a fantasy. We have no reason to think the feeling of being male or female is anything more than social programming. Maybe a trans male looked up to his mother, but not his father. So he identified himself as being more like a female than a male.

We really do not know. The experts do not know. As usual, they pretend to know.

Children age 2, 3, 4 and 6 do not have any social programming. There are parents of children that are either gay or trans that state that they knew their child recognized their 'true sexuality' at these young ages.

 

[maquiscat]

We have absolutely no reason to think that can happen. We have no reason to think the brain can be simply male or female.

Yeah we do. Chimeras. If we can see where male/male or female/female fraternal twins pairs can end up as a single being, why can't it happen from a male/female fraternal twins pair?

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[Good4Nothin]

There is no such thing as a "trans" person.

There are 2 - that's two - sexes

There ARE some extremely rare malformations that occur during formation of infants/fetus in the womb, but that's a different subject.

There ARE some people who are confused about some things regarding what sex they are. That is a psychological/mental issue.

With the new "trans" trend and rage we're experiencing, the APA HAS issued some warnings about it.

Especially to those who get hot & bothered and would like to get their children involved in it.

The American Psychological Association Says Born-That-Way-And-Can’t-Change Is Not True of Sexual Orientation And Gender Identity - National Task Force for Therapy Equality

Yes, it can be tragic when children are prematurely labeled as transgender. I know of one case. Once you start down that road, it's hard to go back. A young child is NOT capable of knowing if they are really transgender! But the politically correct medical industry has been promoting gender "affirmation."

The decision has to be made early if you want to avoid secondary sex traits from appearing. So they give puberty blocking drugs to pre-adolescents. These children are NOT capable of knowing if they are really transgender. But the drugs make it impossible for them to develop normally, to find out if they are heterosexual or homosexual.

So many little girls want to be little boys. But we got a little older and instead of wanting to BE boys, we wanted to LOVE them. A complete transformation. But if you take puberty blockers, the transformation doesn't happen.

So I can see the dilemma. If a boy wants to be a girl, it's better to prevent the voice change and facial hair, and strong muscles, etc. So they give the blockers. But it is tragic to interfere with these natural processes.

 

[Good4Nothin]

There's no laws 'ascribing' to what anyone wears. I was using that as an example to try to get you to understand the way they feel being put into a box that society accepts. People are the gender they carry in their genetic makeup and in their thinking, emotions, feeling of self-worth. Who are you or anyone else to judge them?

Usually, genetics are very clear about who is male or female. If every cell in your body says MALE, chances are you are male. Case closed.