My Bias, My Burden

[AGENT J]

I don't understand why anybody would think it's a commonplace to talk about a death being due to suicide at the funeral.

its not?
i only have personal experience to go by, two funerals that involved suicide, both talked about. :shrug:

 

[KevinKohler]

Never the less, I have little to no sympathy for suicide.

And I have no sympathy for bullies.

 

[CRUE CAB]

And I have no sympathy for bullies.

Good for you.

 

[KevinKohler]

It's funny, reading back over this, post drunk. I thought about begging....BEGGING...a moderator to take this down, vanish it, somehow. But then I said to myself, WTF. Just leave it.

Let it stand as a testament to the realities faced by those that don't conform.


I mean, really, that's what all of this **** is about. Conformity. We just had a thread in the religious sub forum that got shut down due to hostility, but it's about the same subject matter as my little story here. This is not some rare, isolated, uncommon thing. I don't presume to know any statistics, as I don't even know if any research is or will be done on the subject. But I'll wager conformity is an issue in a great many suicides in this country, and RELIGIOUS conformity (IE, gay people) is high on that percent.

Is conformity THAT important?

 

[Dittohead not!]

It's funny, reading back over this, post drunk. I thought about begging....BEGGING...a moderator to take this down, vanish it, somehow. But then I said to myself, WTF. Just leave it.

Let it stand as a testament to the realities faced by those that don't conform.


I mean, really, that's what all of this **** is about. Conformity. We just had a thread in the religious sub forum that got shut down due to hostility, but it's about the same subject matter as my little story here. This is not some rare, isolated, uncommon thing. I don't presume to know any statistics, as I don't even know if any research is or will be done on the subject. But I'll wager conformity is an issue in a great many suicides in this country, and RELIGIOUS conformity (IE, gay people) is high on that percent.

Is conformity THAT important?

It is to the Taliban.

 

[RAMOSS]

It's a good and valid question. Honeslt, I don't think every SET OUT to post there to antagonize anyone, only to point out the reality, the cause and effect. But then in the process of reading the posts, I don't know...I just lose my cool, and post stuff progressively angrier. Which is why I don't post there anymore. I can't be respectful.

I personally don't think it was to antagonize anyone. I think it was just bottled up inside you to long, and a bottle of another type made you uncork. Perhaps now that you have, you can listen to the more compassionate people on the thread, and do something that you have not been able to, and the is forgive yourself.

 

[CLAX1911]

I don't understand why anybody would think it's a commonplace to talk about a death being due to suicide at the funeral.

Basically by not acknowledging who the deceased was you are basically saying that you are relieved that they are dead. And his secrets will die with him.

 

[CLAX1911]

It is to the Taliban.

The talibornagain.

A god that petty doesn't deserve worship.

It isn't easy to really allow God into your life. It isn't easy for people and, sometimes, it isn't easy for a church.

Religion isn't an answer to anything. It's simply a pathway to peace.

Religion is the wrong answer to a difficult question because people don't want to rethink their beliefs.

 

[CrabCake]

...so segregating and divisive?

Sounds like your problem isn't with Christianity, but with a specific flavor of it. You have a problem with conservative evangelical Christianity.

So do I, and I'm a Christian.

 

[Unrepresented]

Sounds like your problem isn't with Christianity, but with a specific flavor of it. You have a problem with conservative evangelical Christianity.

So do I, and I'm a Christian.

Was going to post a slightly different perspective but with a similar viewpoint.

 

[chromium]

What burden is that, resting assured that you're in the right? You don't owe them anything either. If they're going to have such totalitarian rules, they frankly don't deserve respect. Just keep in mind who they are, and when they crawl out to other forums, lay into them.

 

[chromium]

You refuse to accept that metaphysical expression is part of human nature. We will always ponder the unknowable and look for connections in the mist that surrounds our lives. Just because some people use this to manipulate others and excuse evil is no reason to label all Christians as evil or stupid. The vast majority of Christians, like any other religion, are merely engaging in a natural activity.

Research on ancient cultures does suggest the temple beget the village. Such expression and pursuit may be human nature, but attaching "gays go to hell and the subject is forbidden" definitely is not natural. Yet that is what most Christians the past 1700 years have engaged in. There is quite a lot of atoning to do, a lot of blood on their hands.

 

[chromium]

Also around that time I met my best friend, who shared my name, Kevin. He and his family had started going to the same church. It took us all of about....15 seconds, to realize we would be friends, and not long after to realize, best friends. We did everything together. Explored the woods, of which there was plenty, read comic books, played video games, etc. I used to stay out past my curfew just to hang out with him. He lived a short bike ride from me. Things remained pretty much the same, all through middle school, but around 10th grade, in Highschool, things seemed to change...I know not how, but I believe that, somehow, I suspected that my friend, the closest and most intimate person in my life, was gay. I never really came to it fully, but thinking back on it, I can't help but think that I at least suspected it. He never said, and I never asked. Don't ask, don't tell, lol. I think it was because of the number of times we had gone over the subject of Christianity and homosexuality. A subject that was quite clear, both to everyone in the community, and in the Bible itself. I answered many of his questions with scripture. I never judged him, but the thing that was most important to me at the time certainly did. He became more reclusive, quit the marching band, quit everything in school, and stayed home, wouldn't go outside much, though at the time, I thought it was because of the greatest video game system ever unleashed, the Playstation.

And now, what to do with it? This bottled up guilt and rage? An anger such that, truly, my hands shake as I type this, my body shivers. All I can say is, for those of you who adhere to these beliefs, and who are, genuinely, good people, I'm sorry, I really am. But how good can you be, when you adhere to something so obaminable, so awful, so segregating and divisive? How good can you be, when you adhere to something that kills in so heinous a way?

This is a really powerful story you've shared. The way you've internalized it is almost as painful to read as what your friend endured. If it's any consolation, you were so young, you could've done much worse by your friend, like dropped him altogether and not had any sympathy to this day (like one poster here whose name i won't mention). I've been thru that total rejection by best friends. It sucks of course, but it's when there's *nothing else to turn to* that can make it unbearable. If it weren't for that environment, he could've found other friends, perhaps a GSA or a boyfriend, and been able to cope. You can't be responsible for all of that missing.

Trust me when i say, even if you had been totally supportive, it likely wouldn't have saved him. He'd still have to deal with the *entire town* rejecting him. He still would've suffocated in the closet, even at home. What do you think his parents would've done, had they known? Yeah, reject him, put him thru hell to "get fixed", and he knew that. They drove him to suicide, not you.

You can't blame yourself for not opposing the whole community, all those years ago. You did so at the funeral, and look what happened. You'd have joined your friend as an outcast yourself. You'd both just quit the band and become reclusive. I don't see how there's anything you could've done, and i don't say that lightly. I've told douchebags on here that they are the cause of teen suicide.

You ask how can "good people" in 2014 abide a religion that oppresses in this way. A lot of them just don't realize the impact it has. They think they're just sharing their opinion, but they are in fact mafia wives. Others like the unnamed poster just don't give a damn. They are to be vilified and shunned themselves. Perhaps if they became suicidal as a result, they'd get the picture

Anyway, thanks for sharing

 

[paddymcdougall]

So, you weak minded friend killed himself with antifreeze. Because he was scared to "come out"? Sorry. But that is not a reason for suicide.
And no religion, of any stripe killed him in a "heinous way". He killed himself.

I suggest you listen to some of the videos in the "It Gets Better" project to find out how hard it is for young people who are LGBT to get through their days given the messages they are getting from families and church that there is something wrong with them. Teenagers have so many emotions going on, so many things going on in their brain; fear of being different, fear of disappointing families because they are LGBT, absolutely can lead to suicide.

Hopefully lifelines like the "It Gets Better" project will help future youth.

In the meantime, KevinKohler - it sounds like you were there for your friend ; you may not have been enough to keep himself from killing himself, but you were support for him while he was alive, and I'm sure he would have been worse off without you.

And I agree, religions that claim to be "good" but that use their pulpits to denigrate people who are different really suck. I know there are people who get a lot of comfort from religion; but I have seen religion cause so much grief and bad things in life, that I don't understand how people can support it.

Religions that tell parents to shun their kids because the kids are different - horrible. (My husband was a Jehovah's Witness - his dad won't talk to him because he left that religion. That also is horrible).

I gave up on god in high school; it made no sense to me, and so I became an atheist.

Anyway, my sympathies to you and your friend. I know it had a deep impact on you; I hope in future you will be able to use this experience in some positive way.

 

[rhinefire]

So, you weak minded friend killed himself with antifreeze. Because he was scared to "come out"? Sorry. But that is not a reason for suicide.
And no religion, of any stripe killed him in a "heinous way". He killed himself.

Touching, heart-felt reply I must say.

 

[ecofarm]

Research on ancient cultures does suggest the temple beget the village. Such expression and pursuit may be human nature, but attaching "gays go to hell and the subject is forbidden" definitely is not natural. Yet that is what most Christians the past 1700 years have engaged in. There is quite a lot of atoning to do, a lot of blood on their hands.

Metaphysical expression includes the continuance of metaphysical expression. Such metaphor or understanding for that which lays beyond is only as strong as the years behind it. Thus, it was important (in a world without widespread books, the internet, even literacy), that one have offspring. The Bible's urging to procreate is as physically grounded as its aversion to cheese with meat.

 

[KevinKohler]

Metaphysical expression includes the continuance of metaphysical expression. Such metaphor or understanding for that which lays beyond is only as strong as the years behind it. Thus, it was important (in a world without widespread books, the internet, even literacy), that one have offspring. The Bible's urging to procreate is as physically grounded as its aversion to cheese with meat.

So, though shalt not have anal? Less to do with two dudes ****ing, and more to do with procreative potential?

 

[chromium]

Metaphysical expression includes the continuance of metaphysical expression. Such metaphor or understanding for that which lays beyond is only as strong as the years behind it. Thus, it was important (in a world without widespread books, the internet, even literacy), that one have offspring. The Bible's urging to procreate is as physically grounded as its aversion to cheese with meat.

Why not condemn the impotent or elderly then? Homosexuality is way more natural than religious persecution of it.

 

[chromium]

I suggest you listen to some of the videos in the "It Gets Better" project to find out how hard it is for young people who are LGBT to get through their days given the messages they are getting from families and church that there is something wrong with them. Teenagers have so many emotions going on, so many things going on in their brain; fear of being different, fear of disappointing families because they are LGBT, absolutely can lead to suicide.

Hopefully lifelines like the "It Gets Better" project will help future youth.

In the meantime, KevinKohler - it sounds like you were there for your friend ; you may not have been enough to keep himself from killing himself, but you were support for him while he was alive, and I'm sure he would have been worse off without you.

And I agree, religions that claim to be "good" but that use their pulpits to denigrate people who are different really suck. I know there are people who get a lot of comfort from religion; but I have seen religion cause so much grief and bad things in life, that I don't understand how people can support it.

Religions that tell parents to shun their kids because the kids are different - horrible. (My husband was a Jehovah's Witness - his dad won't talk to him because he left that religion. That also is horrible).

I gave up on god in high school; it made no sense to me, and so I became an atheist.

Anyway, my sympathies to you and your friend. I know it had a deep impact on you; I hope in future you will be able to use this experience in some positive way.

Meh don't worry about it. I've seen that poster condemn a 13 year old for coming out, now condemning a kid for choosing death over the unrelenting hostility and rejection from coming out. Haters will always find a way to hate.

Religions are ultimately cults that need members to survive. That is historically achieved by finding a common enemy - such as the "invisible" homosexuals who prey on youth and consort with the devil - and breaking off contact with, or even killing, anyone who leaves or speaks against it.

 

[ecofarm]

Why not condemn the impotent or elderly then? Homosexuality is way more natural than religious persecution of it.

Both the impotent and the elderly can serve to perpetuate metaphysical understanding, through example, teaching and other means. Homosexual relations, in limiting reproduction (time that could be spent fantasizing with a woman) it inhibited collective MP expression. In what way does it serve MP expression and preservation during ancient times?

 

[chromium]

Both the impotent and the elderly can serve to perpetuate metaphysical understanding, through example, teaching and other means. Homosexual relations, in limiting reproduction (time that could be spent fantasizing with a woman) it inhibited collective MP expression. In what way does it serve MP expression and preservation during ancient times?

Uh, homosexuals can teach or "other means". You're focusing on the sex when it comes to gay couples only, which leads to reproduction no less frequently than the elderly or impotent or any non procreative sex act. That should've been very clear even in ancient times. Heterosexuals in the vast majority found it to be gross, so they sought to oppress it. Doesn't have to be more complicated than that, and they used religion as justification, just as you are now.

 

[paddymcdougall]

Both the impotent and the elderly can serve to perpetuate metaphysical understanding, through example, teaching and other means. Homosexual relations, in limiting reproduction (time that could be spent fantasizing with a woman) it inhibited collective MP expression. In what way does it serve MP expression and preservation during ancient times?

Um, gay people have kids. Elderly people can no longer procreate - why not beat up on them?

And yes,LGBT people can teach, can care for kids. In fact, one theory is that LGBTs who don't procreate are there to help care for kids whose parents would otherwise be overwhelmed.

 

[ecofarm]

Uh, homosexuals can teach or "other means".

One presumes age before teaching. In the meantime, everyone was expected to produce offspring.

Heterosexuals in the vast majority found it to be gross, so they sought to oppress it. Doesn't have to be more complicated than that, and they used religion as justification, just as you are now.

Power is not about what's gross; haha, that's too childish. I'm not justifying anything.

 

[chromium]

I'm not justifying anything.

Yeah you are. I see this relativist-at-all-cost reasoning on a regular basis

 

[ecofarm]

Yeah you are. I see this relativist-at-all-cost reasoning on a regular basis

Spare me.

When discussing a particular social more at a particular time and place, including the context of that time and place is not "relativist", it's context. If the details of context are relativism, of course one will 'see it everywhere'.

Now, if you still cannot see the difference between the elderly and homosexuals during Biblical times, then I don't know what can help.