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More on hell Elvira

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I'm disappointed that Elvira (or another non-trinitarian believer) didn't speak up in this thread.

Agreed. Even though I disagree with the non-trinitarian viewpoint, I would encourage it to be represented in discussion. I'm not sure how many non-trinitarian believers are on this site; my guess is not many. Elvira is the only one who I can specifically recall running into atm...
 
Who says that they are solely temporal transgressions? This conclusion denies the existence of the spiritual.

No, it does not. And how says it? Anyone who understand the concept of time and eternity.
And under the Christian viewpoint, there is nothing irrational nor unreasonable about it. God created life; If people reject God, they reject life.

The entire Christian viewpoint is in and of itself irrational and unreasonable. It depends on believing in magic.
That is not what a 'fact' is... And no, the individual chooses by either accepting or rejecting God's saving grace though his son Jesus.

Newp. Sorry, the bible clearly supports what I stated. It's the god of the bible who condemns people to eternal agony, no matter how much you don't like that fact.
Inversion fallacy; you're the one who isn't "well versed" in scripture...

You know, you have this really odd habit of citing logical fallacies when none exist and using terms incorrectly. Why try and reference logic when you and it are clearly unacquainted?

The problem here for you is that I know the bible extremely well. That's why I don't have to lie about what's in it.
 
I'm disappointed that Elvira (or another non-trinitarian believer) didn't speak up in this thread.

I have no desire to argue doctrine, but just for you...

There are so many scriptures that refute the idea of hellfire/the immortal soul and many I have posted before on other threads...

For one thing, in order to be tormented, an individual has to be conscious...is that what the Bible teaches...that the dead are conscious? No...“The living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all, neither do they anymore have wages, because the remembrance of them has been forgotten"...Ecclesiastes 9:5...it is impossible for the dead, “conscious of nothing at all,” to experience the agonies of hellfire...

So, does that mean that we are not punished for our sins? No, our holy God punishes sinners, but he does not torture them and when sinners repent, he forgives them...what is the punishment for sin? The Bible gives a direct answer...“The wages sin pays is death”...Romans 6:23...life is a gift from God...when we sin we no longer deserve that gift, and we die...

Take a look at my signature...does that scripture teach that the soul, all souls are immortal?
 
No, you have no such argument. The idea of torturing people in fire eternally for temporal transgressions is wholly irrational and unreasonable.

Besides the fact that according to the bible, that god is responsible for each and every person that ends up in hell.

Sounds like you don't know the bible very well.

You don't know the Bible from a hole in the ground, give it up, you are not fooling anybody.
 
Anybody here familiar with Marcion of Sinope? His view was that the god of the OT was not the same as the god of the NT.
 
I have no desire to argue doctrine, but just for you...

There are so many scriptures that refute the idea of hellfire/the immortal soul and many I have posted before on other threads...

For one thing, in order to be tormented, an individual has to be conscious...is that what the Bible teaches...that the dead are conscious? No...“The living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all, neither do they anymore have wages, because the remembrance of them has been forgotten"...Ecclesiastes 9:5...it is impossible for the dead, “conscious of nothing at all,” to experience the agonies of hellfire...

So, does that mean that we are not punished for our sins? No, our holy God punishes sinners, but he does not torture them and when sinners repent, he forgives them...what is the punishment for sin? The Bible gives a direct answer...“The wages sin pays is death”...Romans 6:23...life is a gift from God...when we sin we no longer deserve that gift, and we die...

Take a look at my signature...does that scripture teach that the soul, all souls are immortal?


We've (you and I) discussed this before. My reading tends to lean toward your position for several reasons, but I'm not even a lay Christian - more of a curious bystander. Both the triune God and the eternal torture version of hell seem to me to go against what the bible seems to say - the OT in the first instance and the supposed nature of God in the 2nd. Granted, at least for the hell stuff there are strong references in the opposite direction, but I think they lose out in the end.

I don't really want to re-argue the points over another 1,000 post thread, either, but I would be happy to supply a quick explanation regarding my reasoning for anyone genuinely interested.

I was curious why you didn't want to debate the point with the opposition here. Thanks for your answer.
 
No, you have no such argument. The idea of torturing people in fire eternally for temporal transgressions is wholly irrational and unreasonable.

Besides the fact that according to the bible, that god is responsible for each and every person that ends up in hell.

Sounds like you don't know the bible very well.

But it seems that the idea is quite satisfying to some people, doesn't it?
 
We've (you and I) discussed this before. My reading tends to lean toward your position for several reasons, but I'm not even a lay Christian - more of a curious bystander. Both the triune God and the eternal torture version of hell seem to me to go against what the bible seems to say - the OT in the first instance and the supposed nature of God in the 2nd. Granted, at least for the hell stuff there are strong references in the opposite direction, but I think they lose out in the end.

I don't really want to re-argue the points over another 1,000 post thread, either, but I would be happy to supply a quick explanation regarding my reasoning for anyone genuinely interested.

I was curious why you didn't want to debate the point with the opposition here. Thanks for your answer.

I agree...any and all references of fire and brimstone/eternal fire/lake of fire/torture in the Bible are in the figurative sense, representing eternal destruction and cutting off from God, nothing more...

SOME COMMON MYTHS ABOUT DEATH WHAT DO THE SCRIPTURES SAY?

● Death is the natural end of life Genesis 1:28; 2:17; Romans 5:12

● God takes people in death to be with him Job 34:15; Psalm 37:11, 29; 115:16

● God takes little children to become angels Psalm 51:5; 104:1, 4; Hebrews 1:7, 14

● Some people are tormented after death Psalm 146:4; Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10; Romans 6:23

● Death means the permanent end of our existence Job 14:14, 15; John 3:16; 17:3; Acts 24:15

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2002401
 
But it seems that the idea is quite satisfying to some people, doesn't it?

Some seem to relish in it, which gives Jehovah a bad name, not the God of love and mercy that He really is...
 
It does, indeed. It indicates a certain high level of fear that they ground their lives in ana lust for dominance and/or revenge, among other things.

Have you ever tried to read one of those "Left Behind" books?
 
No, it does not.
Yes, it does deny the spiritual.

...deleted 'lack of intelligence' mantra...

The entire Christian viewpoint is in and of itself irrational and unreasonable.
Completely and utterly false. It is circular reasoning (P ->P) and it is logically valid reasoning through the proof of identity; it is not irrational to believe.

It depends on believing in magic.
Not in the slightest. I am a Christian and I do not believe in magic.

Newp. Sorry, the bible clearly supports what I stated.
Not at all. The Bible makes it quite clear that it is ultimately individuals who choose their own fate through their free will acceptance/denial of Jesus and his sacrifice for them. Yes, God is the 'judge' and will convict/acquit according to his perfect moral standard, but the judge doesn't put the defendant in the courtroom; the defendant does that by his own free will actions...

It's the god of the bible who condemns people to eternal agony, no matter how much you don't like that fact.
Here, you finally used the word 'fact' correctly. It is definitely God who judges people. I agree with that predicate, thus we can use shorthand in this case... However, under the Christian worldview, it makes perfect logical sense that God would do so... He has both a loving nature AND a just nature. By holding us accountable for our sins, but also sending Jesus to save us from our sins (if we accept him), God stays true to both natures that define him.

You know, you have this really odd habit of citing logical fallacies
Only when you misuse logic...

when none exist
False.

...deleted unsubstantiated claim...

...deleted 'lack of understanding' mantra...

The problem here for you is that I know the bible extremely well.
Your responses indicate that you don't...

...deleted 'you're lying' mantra
 
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Yes, it does deny the spiritual.

You can stomp your fists and get upset to your heart's content, but it simply doesn't deny the spiritual. You saying that it's so won't magically make it so.
Much dishonesty and blathering snipped

If you don't understand the term 'circular reasoning', why are you trying to use it?
Not in the slightest. I am a Christian and I do not believe in magic.

If you're a Christian, you believe in magic. Full stop. Do not pass 'go'. Do not collect $200.
Not at all. The Bible makes it quite clear that it is ultimately individuals who choose their own fate through their free will acceptance/denial of Jesus and his sacrifice for them. Yes, God is the 'judge' and will convict/acquit according to his perfect moral standard, but the judge doesn't put the defendant in the courtroom; the defendant does that by his own free will actions...

Yes, it most certainly does. If you knew the bible, and you had even a shred of intellectual honesty, you'd know that.
Here, you finally used the word 'fact' correctly. It is definitely God who judges people. I agree with that predicate, thus we can use shorthand in this case... However, under the Christian worldview, it makes perfect logical sense that God would do so... He has both a loving nature AND a just nature. By holding us accountable for our sins, but also sending Jesus to save us from our sins (if we accept him), God stays true to both natures that define him.

The bible clearly shows that the god of the bible created Hell, created the rules of the universe and the criteria by which souls are judged and that nothing happens that doesn't go according to that god's plan. Hence, this god is ultimately responsible for everything, including the people he ends up sending to Hell. To make it even more delicious, this god is omniscient, so it knew in advance of creating such people that they'd end up in Hell, but it did so anyway. That's not what a loving god would do; it's representative of a sociopath.
Only when you misuse logic...

LOL! You wouldn't know. You don't know logic.

Newp. I have offered no fallacies, nor can you demonstrate that I have. Your dishonesty is, I must say, quite bracing (but unsurprising) for one who claims to follow the teachings attributed to Christ.
Your responses indicate that you don't...

It's sad that you have to pretend you know the bible. I really recommend reading it some day. Highly interesting.
 
There's a reason the word "tried" is in there. The fem fatal in the one I tried was "Hattie". Yep...

It would seem, by appearance, to fit right in with the maturity level I'm seeing exhibited here. Wow.

It never ceases to amaze me how people who describe themselves as 'Christians' do know the bible and do not act in accordance with it's teachings.
 
Y'all know there's no rapture taught in the Bible, right? Some use 1 Thessalonians 4:17 in reference to the rapture but that is not what it's talking about at all...this article explains why and what it is really referring to...

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1101989259?q=rapture&p=par

Thanks.

There's also a lot of folks who seem to think they have to take over the governments of the world so God can come back and run it. They are trouble...
 
Thanks.

There's also a lot of folks who seem to think they have to take over the governments of the world so God can come back and run it. They are trouble...

They doubt their God then...He doesn't need puny human's help...have they not read Revelation?;)
 
Hell was invented by the early church so they could control people.

Take it from someone who's had a near-death experience, hell does not exist!
 

Interesting...lots of paganism going on there, which I already knew from my own studies...

The hermeneutic of the early apostolic fathers was greatly influenced by their environment and culture. We must realize the difficult situation that they faced. Dwight Pentecost, of Dallas Seminary, summarizes:

They were without an established canon of either the Old or New Testaments. They were dependent upon a faulty translation of the Scriptures "The Septuagint". They had known only the rules of interpretation laid down by the rabbinical schools and, thus, had to free themselves from the erroneous application of the principle of interpretation. They were surrounded by paganism, Judaism, and heresy of every kind. (11)
By the third century, there were basically three schools of diverse hermeneutical positions which had arisen. F.W. Farrar, biblical scholar and an Anglican clergyman, explains:

"The Fathers of the third and later centuries may be divided into three exegetical schools. Those schools are the Literal and Realistic as represented predominantly by Tertullian; the Allegorical, of which Origen is the foremost exponent; and the Historical and Grammatical, which flourished chiefly in Antioch, and of which Theodore of Mopsuestia was the acknowledged chief." (12)

Not surprisingly, we find that as the allegorical method of interpretation began to take hold, the view of an earthly millennial reign of Christ began to wane. It was the biblical school in Alexandria, Egypt that fostered and promoted the allegorical method of interpretation. It was the methods of this school that provided one reason for the eventual abandonment of a literal thousand-year kingdom on earth within the church.

As mentioned earlier, the fathers from the school of Alexandria were greatly influenced by the philosophy of the Greeks, particularly Plato. Platonic thought held that the spiritual was supreme over the material. This influence is noted by Schaff. He writes,

"The Platonic philosophy offered many points of resemblance to Christianity. It is spiritual and idealistic, maintaining the supremacy of the spirit over matter. From the time of Justin Martyr, the Platonic philosophy continued to exercise a direct and indirect influence upon Christian theology. We can trace it especially in Clement of Alexandria and Origen, and even in St. Augustine, who confessed that it kindled in him an incredible fire." (26)
 
You can stomp your fists and get upset to your heart's content,
I don't throw tantrums during discussions... I'll leave that up to you...

but it simply doesn't deny the spiritual. You saying that it's so won't magically make it so.
Yes, it does, and not because I say so.

If you don't understand the term 'circular reasoning', why are you trying to use it?
Circular reasoning is (P, therefore P) reasoning... it concludes where it begins... I understand the term just fine... do you?

If you're a Christian, you believe in magic. Full stop. Do not pass 'go'. Do not collect $200.
Obviously you and I define magic differently then... you are most likely confusing the term magic with the term miracle... I do believe in miracles, but I do not believe in magic, as what gets attributed as being "magic" is in actuality nothing more than an illusion.

Yes, it most certainly does... deleted 'lack of understanding' mantra... deleted ad hominem...
No, it most certainly does not, and I explained why.

The bible clearly shows that the god of the bible created Hell, created the rules of the universe and the criteria by which souls are judged and that nothing happens that doesn't go according to that god's plan.
Okay.

Hence, this god is ultimately responsible for everything, including the people he ends up sending to Hell.
Nope. He doesn't send them to hell willy nilly... He only sends them to hell if they sin in any way... He doesn't force people to sin... people freely choose to sin... Thus, people freely choose their own fate... God doesn't want to send people to hell (his loving nature) but he has to (his just nature).

To make it even more delicious, this god is omniscient, so it knew in advance of creating such people that they'd end up in Hell, but it did so anyway.
Yup...

That's not what a loving god would do; it's representative of a sociopath.
He sacrificed his son to the most gruesome, painful, and agonizing death (beyond what one can imagine) to save mankind from their choice of sin/rebellion... If that's not loving, then I don't know what is... that's pure agape love at its finest... there's only so much that even God can do given the choice to create humans with free will, and he's definitely done that much for humanity... He quite plausibly decided to create the world in an optimal way for the most possible human beings with free will to be saved

LOL! You wouldn't know. You don't know logic.
Inversion fallacy.

Newp. I have offered no fallacies, nor can you demonstrate that I have.
I already have demonstrated so... but if you wish to remain irrational...

...deleted various ad hominems...

...deleted 'lack of intelligence' mantra
 
I don't throw tantrums during discussions... I'll leave that up to you...

Oh, so you're just calming lying w/out getting upset? OK.
Yes, it does, and not because I say so.

But you cannot demonstrate that it actually does.
Circular reasoning is (P, therefore P) reasoning... it concludes where it begins... I understand the term just fine... do you?

And yet you cannot, again, demonstrate where I'm doing that. Why bother to use terms you don't understand?
Obviously you and I define magic differently then... you are most likely confusing the term magic with the term miracle... I do believe in miracles, but I do not believe in magic, as what gets attributed as being "magic" is in actuality nothing more than an illusion.

You believe that the universe and everything in it can about by a single act of will. I.E., you believe in magic.
No, it most certainly does not, and I explained why.

"you just don't understand" mantra dismissed...

Try substantive reasoning next time.
Okay.

Nope. He doesn't send them to hell willy nilly... He only sends them to hell if they sin in any way... He doesn't force people to sin... people freely choose to sin... Thus, people freely choose their own fate... God doesn't want to send people to hell (his loving nature) but he has to (his just nature).

Yep, he certainly does, having created them with the foreknowledge that that's where they'd end up. He even knew when they'd sin and what kind of sin it would be. That omniscience is a real bitch, eh?
Yup...


He sacrificed his son to the most gruesome, painful, and agonizing death (beyond what one can imagine) to save mankind from their choice of sin/rebellion... If that's not loving, then I don't know what is... that's pure agape love at its finest... there's only so much that even God can do given the choice to create humans with free will, and he's definitely done that much for humanity... He quite plausibly decided to create the world in an optimal way for the most possible human beings with free will to be saved

There have been countless more gruesome deaths that the one described in the bible the Christ suffered, and an omniscient being would have no need for such laughable machinations. He could just snap his fingers and 'poof', they're saved.
Inversion fallacy

Please stop using words you don't understand.
I already have demonstrated so... but if you wish to remain irrational...

"you just don't understand" mantra dismissed...

Try substantive reasoning next time.
 
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