Miss Michigan stripped of title for being a Conservative.

[maxparrish]

They want people to "try a hijab" to foster mutual understanding. Her response is an attack on Islam. She ends up sounding like an Islamaphobe. Jews also wear head coverings. Sikhs wear head coverings. Are they oppressed too?

It makes sense that the pageant doesn't want her representing them. I don't get the controversy.

It's unclear what the pageant wanted. There was not, to my, to my knowledge, a stated prohibition against women criticizing hijabs as symbols of female oppression. Coming from an organization whose purpose is to celebrate and defend women - their equality, and their accomplishments - makes it extra disturbing that their priority is to make Islam immune from criticism of their symbols of female obedience and servile status to men.

That "makes sense" is a pageant that wants women to think for themselves, not that wants women to pretend that there is an equality of good and evil.

The bottom line is you can't reconcile women's rights with Islam or the hijab. And the only way to keep the fiction alive is to require your women to be dopey mouthpieces blathering about world peace and the equality of cultures, no matter how ludicrous or evil their views and practices. So yes, I suppose what they really want is airheads mouthing false platitudes, saying the same shallow air-headed stuff they always have.

On that we may agree.

 

[SonOfDaedalus]

Head coverings such as the above- as well as the hijab- are theological in nature. Hence Ms. Zhu's confusion over the cavalier treatment of the hijab by Ms. Sukkarieh.

Oh, she has such deep regard for Muslim hijab that she was upset that it was being treated so nonchalantly. You have a future in politics as a spin doctor.

 

[maxparrish]

Head coverings such as the above- as well as the hijab- are theological in nature. Hence Ms. Zhu's confusion over the cavalier treatment of the hijab by Ms. Sukkarieh.

There isn't any "confusion". Head coverings in different cultural contexts don't necessarily mean the same thing. That orthodox Jewish men and women wear different head coverings may, or may not, have purely benign differences in meaning. Same for Sikhs. In case that isn't obvious, permit me to add another "innocent" theological head covering:

View attachment 67260309

So the trope of "hey they just like others innocent head covering" depends on WHICH OTHERS...

 

[SonOfDaedalus]

It's unclear what the pageant wanted. There was not, to my, to my knowledge, a stated prohibition against women criticizing hijabs as symbols of female oppression. Coming from an organization whose purpose is to celebrate and defend women - their equality, and their accomplishments - makes it extra disturbing that their priority is to make Islam immune from criticism of their symbols of female obedience and servile status to men.

That "makes sense" is a pageant that wants women to think for themselves, not that wants women to pretend that there is an equality of good and evil.

The bottom line is you can't reconcile women's rights with Islam or the hijab. And the only way to keep the fiction alive is to require your women to be dopey mouthpieces blathering about world peace and the equality of cultures, no matter how ludicrous or evil their views and practices. So yes, I suppose what they really want is airheads mouthing false platitudes, saying the same shallow air-headed stuff they always have.

On that we may agree.

I think you're confusing the hijab with the burqa. The hijab is about as oppressive as baseball caps. Moreover, like I said, other religions also wear head coverings. It's actually far left wing atheist liberals who want to ban head coverings. France is an example. I'm surprised to hear you make the same arguments as far left liberal atheists.

 

[SonOfDaedalus]

And where is the evidence of mutual understanding by Ms. Sukkarieh? She immediately determines that Ms. Zhu is motivated by hatred and apparently wishes her expelled.

The one thing that's not tolerated is hate. Society can't function properly if hate spreads. You end up with riots and wars.

I agree that having her expelled is taking things too far. But if you run a university you don't need your students attacking each other. Even in gradeschool, you can be suspended for saying something racist.

Why are you against a civil society where people can live together in peace. Stop attacking people? Stop blaming Blacks for crime. Stop blaming Muslims for terrorism. Start working together towards a better world. It's not that hard.

 

[maxparrish]

What about the orthodox Jewish women or Sikh women? Your clothing is purely cultural. Wearing a headscarf is hardly oppression.

As I just posted, with a telling image, it depends on the group and the context. Just because you assume their clothing has no meaning other than culture is nonsensical. Culture is defined as "learned, shared, values and conduct". So the question is, what values and conduct is being promoted?

By the way, are you aware the orthodox Jews also have the oppressive patriarchal views of females? See: the Netflix documentary "One of Us" , that should disabuse your notion of innocence behind some of these garbs.

 

[maxparrish]

I think you're confusing the hijab with the burqa. The hijab is about as oppressive as baseball caps. Moreover, like I said, other religions also wear head coverings. It's actually far left wing atheist liberals who want to ban head coverings. France is an example. I'm surprised to hear you make the same arguments as far left liberal atheists.

First, I am an agnostic/atheist.

Second, I don't share the argument of "France" in that I do not believe government has a right to tell adults what to wear - if a brainwashed dutiful redneck wife wants to wear a bucket on her head she can.

Third, just because a person has the right to wear an oppressive symbol, and push it at a student booth as innocent object, doesn't change its cultural meaning to Islam. And just because that meaning is provided by a religion doesn't mean it must be thoughtlessly respected.

Here's the thing, the evolution of western political culture has been towards modernism; the social and sexual liberation of women, the increased rights of children, the increasing respect for individuality and anti-authoritarianism (at least in the 60s). However, since the 60s there as been a contradictory counter-current; that the values of the west are no worse or better than that of any other culture. Under multiculturalism and diversity the implicit assumption is that all cultures are equal, and all should be accepted and respected as is.

These are impossible to reconcile. The demands of the 60s left and their progeny runs head on into the postmodern left countermarch into squishy love of diversity in culture. How do you resolve that Indian culture condemns people to caste and rituals like widows being burned on the funeral fires with dead husbands? How do you resolve Islam and the everyday confinement to the home without escort of brother or husband? How does find equality in the woman being blamed for rape, and whipped for it? How does one resolve the vile practice of fathers murdering wayward daughters who date?

The "can't we all get along" diversity crowd resolves it by pretending that "true" Islam is coca cola an apple pie. So pass the hajib around as a fashion statement, encourage women to wear it, and hey maybe you'll be more tolerant of our Islamic intolerant culture.

It's a lie invented in western liberals mind to make it easier to hold contradictory views. You can't respect both women and Islam, its one or the other. Otherwise not only is a person is lying to others, they are lying to themselves.

 

[Athanasius68]

The one thing that's not tolerated is hate. Society can't function properly if hate spreads. You end up with riots and wars.

I agree that having her expelled is taking things too far. But if you run a university you don't need your students attacking each other. Even in gradeschool, you can be suspended for saying something racist.

Why are you against a civil society where people can live together in peace. Stop attacking people? Stop blaming Blacks for crime. Stop blaming Muslims for terrorism. Start working together towards a better world. It's not that hard.

The hijab is generally considered a sign of personal sacrifice, modesty, theological devotion and so on. Ms. Zhou wonders why Ms. Sukkarieh was treating it like a baseball cap. In a university setting, it seems quite the reasonable question.
Instead of answering it, the reply is outrage and a call that she should be expelled from school.
Who is really threatening civil society here? Who is really showing hate?

 

[Athanasius68]

Oh, she has such deep regard for Muslim hijab that she was upset that it was being treated so nonchalantly. You have a future in politics as a spin doctor.

The question that was asked by MS. Zhou is why was Ms. Sukkarieh treating the hijab so nonchalantly.

 

[dobieg]

What about the orthodox Jewish women or Sikh women? Your clothing is purely cultural. Wearing a headscarf is hardly oppression.

How progressive of you to argue men should be allowed to force women to cover themselves under the threat of physical violence or imprisonment all in the name of religious tolerance.


Of course, I'm not sure your tolerance would extend so far on something as ambiguous as say baking a cake.

 

[calamity]

How progressive of you to argue men should be allowed to force women to cover themselves under the threat of physical violence or imprisonment all in the name of religious tolerance.


Of course, I'm not sure your tolerance would extend so far on something as ambiguous as say baking a cake.

He only pointed out that head covering is not unique to Muslims.

 

[marke]

Trump-supporting Miss Michigan stripped of title over ‘racist’ tweets
So here we have another example of out of control intolerance by liberals who strip Miss Michigan of her title for nothing more than having a different viewpoint than themselves. I can't even fathom what will happen if these people get in power as the thought police will make sure you have no freedom of thought or expression if it doesn't strictly adhere to their worldview.
And yet these people claim we're fascists? Good grief.

Former beauty pageant contestants and winners like Foxy News chicks Gretchen Carlson, Shannon Bream, Morgan Ortagus, and Sara Palin would not likely have won anything if past climates were as hostile towards Christians and conservatives as our modern climate is.

 

[marke]

She was just mad that she was too old for trump to check her out in the dressing room so she thought she could get his attention through Twitter.

One night with trump is worth a lot more money than a playboy spread...

Some red light 'womens' do know how to 'earn' the big bucks.

 

[dobieg]

He only pointed out that head covering is not unique to Muslims.

So are you one of our enlightened progressives who feels forcing a woman to cover her body and face under the threat of violence or imprisonment is in no way oppression and simply the right of men to impose on women because of their religious beliefs?



Honestly, some of you really need to think what you're arguing for.

 

[Deuce]

As I just posted, with a telling image, it depends on the group and the context. Just because you assume their clothing has no meaning other than culture is nonsensical. Culture is defined as "learned, shared, values and conduct". So the question is, what values and conduct is being promoted?

By the way, are you aware the orthodox Jews also have the oppressive patriarchal views of females? See: the Netflix documentary "One of Us" , that should disabuse your notion of innocence behind some of these garbs.

Oh look, more right wing antisemitism.

 

[Trippy Trekker]

You seem to go to great lengths to prove I did not answer a question which you then conclude I answered.... I do not notice where I ever stated it was wrong to identify the hijab as a symbol of oppression. And of course I have never stated that refusal to wear one is racist. What I did state is that adult women who CHOOSE to wear a hijab as a religious statement are similar to men who CHOOSE to wear a yalmahka or a turban. Is your position so tenuous that you need to fabricate positions I have not taken?

You impress me with your willingness and capacity to engage with someone so tedious, intellectually dishonest and prone to spew nonsense.

Bravo!:applaud

 

[maxparrish]

Oh look, more right wing antisemitism.

Afraid to look at a Netflix documentary are you?

 

[Deuce]

Afraid to look at a Netflix documentary are you?

If criticizing Israel means being antisemitic, then what you wrote surely is.

 

[justabubba]

So are you one of our enlightened progressives who feels forcing a woman to cover her body and face under the threat of violence or imprisonment is in no way oppression and simply the right of men to impose on women because of their religious beliefs?



Honestly, some of you really need to think what you're arguing for.

some of you need to think about what you are defending

maybe chat with that female priest - ooops, there are none
or that nun who holds no position of authority in her church
or while seated with the women seated behind the men in the synagogue
that mormon with multiple wives who cannot have multiple husbands
that southern baptist school girl who must wear a long dress on the playground to comply with her family's religious beliefs

somehow, Americans are able to reconcile such unique religious directives as being the actions of faith followers who reasonably comport with the directives of their faith
but for some reason a segment of our population believes such adherence to religious tenet is outrageous if practiced by muslims

 

[maxparrish]

If criticizing Israel means being antisemitic, then what you wrote surely is.

I'd rather spar with someone who is informed, not one that writes dopey comments born out of intellectual immaturity. I am one of the most strident Israel supporters on this board, but there are backwaters of fundi Judaism as repulsive as that of some of those in Christianity. Not all orthodox off-shoots are as bad as the Hasidic of Brooklyn, but anyone who is familiar with their retrograde anti-modernist power in Israel is no fool.

Modernity was marked by science, naturalism, and reason. The march has been long but necessary; from the imprisonment of Galileo to the beheading of heretics by ISIS, religion has been criticized and mellowed...except among the backwaters. Islam however, has only recently tried to take a step out of the dark ages...

The cult of the equality and affection for all civilizations, religions, and people's runs headlong into the modernist human rights trends of the last several hundred years. Make your choice: human rights or worship of religions and cultures that deny human rights.

 

[justabubba]

First, I am an agnostic/atheist.

Second, I don't share the argument of "France" in that I do not believe government has a right to tell adults what to wear - if a brainwashed dutiful redneck wife wants to wear a bucket on her head she can.

Third, just because a person has the right to wear an oppressive symbol, and push it at a student booth as innocent object, doesn't change its cultural meaning to Islam. And just because that meaning is provided by a religion doesn't mean it must be thoughtlessly respected.

Here's the thing, the evolution of western political culture has been towards modernism; the social and sexual liberation of women, the increased rights of children, the increasing respect for individuality and anti-authoritarianism (at least in the 60s). However, since the 60s there as been a contradictory counter-current; that the values of the west are no worse or better than that of any other culture. Under multiculturalism and diversity the implicit assumption is that all cultures are equal, and all should be accepted and respected as is.

maybe not practiced by us but a practice of theirs respected by us because we are expected to be tolerant of the beliefs of others

These are impossible to reconcile. The demands of the 60s left and their progeny runs head on into the postmodern left countermarch into squishy love of diversity in culture. How do you resolve that Indian culture condemns people to caste and rituals like widows being burned on the funeral fires with dead husbands? How do you resolve Islam and the everyday confinement to the home without escort of brother or husband? How does find equality in the woman being blamed for rape, and whipped for it? How does one resolve the vile practice of fathers murdering wayward daughters who date?

those are reprehensible practices - practiced off of our shore
i would bet the chinese would want to reconsider their one-child per family edict which resulted in a ratio of 121 males for each 100 females born. this disconnect impacts that nation today. but it is not and was not ours to decide
much like those other practices you describe - because those actions extend beyond the reach of American laws
it seems strange that you would not recognize that context. that it is not happening in America is meaningful

The "can't we all get along" diversity crowd resolves it by pretending that "true" Islam is coca cola an apple pie. So pass the hajib around as a fashion statement, encourage women to wear it, and hey maybe you'll be more tolerant of our Islamic intolerant culture.

meanwhile, back on American shores we have islamic practitioners who want to share aspects of their faith with others
no one thinks much about the Christian edit (of some faiths) to proselytize. why opposition to muslims for doing the same; performing outreach to the public to share their religious beliefs and practices

It's a lie invented in western liberals mind to make it easier to hold contradictory views. You can't respect both women and Islam, its one or the other. Otherwise not only is a person is lying to others, they are lying to themselves.

the lie is what you have posted
what is actually being observed in the practice of tolerance
i commend it to you

 

[cabse5]

Hmm, so your title says "for being conservative", but the article says "for racist tweets"...

are you admitting that conservatives are generally racist?

But I'm sure you are. Let's have the evidence.

 

[justabubba]

I'd rather spar with someone who is informed, not one that writes dopey comments born out of intellectual immaturity. I am one of the most strident Israel supporters on this board, but there are backwaters of fundi Judaism as repulsive as that of some of those in Christianity. Not all orthodox off-shoots are as bad as the Hasidic of Brooklyn, but anyone who is familiar with their retrograde anti-modernist power in Israel is no fool.

Modernity was marked by science, naturalism, and reason. The march has been long but necessary; from the imprisonment of Galileo to the beheading of heretics by ISIS, religion has been criticized and mellowed...except among the backwaters. Islam however, has only recently tried to take a step out of the dark ages...

The cult of the equality and affection for all civilizations, religions, and people's runs headlong into the modernist human rights trends of the last several hundred years. Make your choice: human rights or worship of religions and cultures that deny human rights.

i've been wondering when you would finally show up

the self-anointed arbiter deciding which religions and practices are acceptable and which are not

please present your credentials qualifying you to perform such a significant task

 

[veritas1]

Trump-supporting Miss Michigan stripped of title over ‘racist’ tweets



So here we have another example of out of control intolerance by liberals who strip Miss Michigan of her title for nothing more than having a different viewpoint than themselves. I can't even fathom what will happen if these people get in power as the thought police will make sure you have no freedom of thought or expression if it doesn't strictly adhere to their worldview.


And yet these people claim we're fascists? Good grief.

Everything the left claims about the other side is descriptive of themselves. Just remember that.

 

[calamity]

Everything the left claims about the other side is descriptive of themselves. Just remember that.

Irony coming from the Pizza Gate Party with pedophiles to the left and right of them. :roll: