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Methodist church rejects gay clergy and marriage.

Logicman said:
You haven't done your homework.

Let's look at two of those right off the bat - Jefferson and Franklin. Here's quotes where they believed in a God who involved himself in the affairs of men / nations:

On June 28, 1787, after much gridlock in the Constitutional Convention, Benjamin Franklin spoke the following:

“In the beginning of the contest with Great Britain, when we were sensible of danger we had daily prayer in this room for the Divine Protection. — Our prayers, Sir, were heard, and they were graciously answered. All of us who were engaged in the struggle must have observed frequent instances of a Superintending providence in our favor. To that kind providence we owe this happy opportunity of consulting in peace on the means of establishing our future national felicity. And have we now forgotten that powerful friend? Or do we imagine that we no longer need His assistance.

I have lived, Sir, a long time and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth — that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without his aid? We have been assured, Sir, in the sacred writings that “except the Lord build they labor in vain that build it.” I firmly believe this; and I also believe that without his concurring aid we shall succeed in this political building no better than the Builders of Babel: We shall be divided by our little partial local interests; our projects will be confounded, and we ourselves shall be become a reproach and a bye word down to future age. And what is wo

Thomas Jefferson was hardly speaking from a strict deist standpoint when he said:

“Can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; and that His justice cannot sleep forever.” (Notes on the State of Virginia, 1781)

Now, why should Jefferson tremble for his country if God does not involve himself in the affairs of men and nations?

And then there’s this:

“I shall need, too, the favor of that Being in whose hands we are, who led our forefathers, as Israel of old, from their native land and planted them in a country flowing with all the necessities and comforts of life.” (Monday, March 4, 1805, in his 2nd Inaugural Address)

That's the Righter Report, busting your chops. Were the Founding Fathers Deists? << The Righter Report
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WHY do you continue linking to the Righter Report, when it has been consistently wrong? The Benjamin Franklin "quote" is actually by Roger Sherman from Connecticut. At the conclusion of his comment, he asked "-that henceforth prayers imploring the assistance of Heaven, and its blessings on our deliberations, be held in this Assembly every morning before we proceed to business" The response was not favourable to the proposition
"Mr. HAMILTON & several others expressed their apprehensions that however proper such a resolution might have been at the beginning of the convention, it might at this late day, I. bring on it some disagreeable animadversions. & 2. lead the public to believe that the embarrassments and dissensions within the Convention, had suggested this measure."

The Jefferson quote is accurate and may be found in Notes on the State of Virginia, Query XVIII: Manners but the reasoning behind the words may not fit your notions. In the Note, Jefferson is discussing the problem of slavery and the ways in which the Revolution could be changing the status of those who were enslaved. As the Notes were written over a span of several years, it seems Mr Jefferson had some changes of heart during that period. In Query XIV: "Laws" Jefferson wrote that blacks were inferior to both whites and Indians, although he did see that enslavement might well be the cause of what he saw as lesser beings.
 
Somerville said:
WHY do you continue linking to the Righter Report, when it has been consistently wrong? The Benjamin Franklin "quote" is actually by Roger Sherman from Connecticut. At the conclusion of his comment, he asked "-that henceforth prayers imploring the assistance of Heaven, and its blessings on our deliberations, be held in this Assembly every morning before we proceed to business" The response was not favourable to the proposition
"Mr. HAMILTON & several others expressed their apprehensions that however proper such a resolution might have been at the beginning of the convention, it might at this late day, I. bring on it some disagreeable animadversions. & 2. lead the public to believe that the embarrassments and dissensions within the Convention, had suggested this measure."

The Jefferson quote is accurate and may be found in Notes on the State of Virginia, Query XVIII: Manners but the reasoning behind the words may not fit your notions. In the Note, Jefferson is discussing the problem of slavery and the ways in which the Revolution could be changing the status of those who were enslaved. As the Notes were written over a span of several years, it seems Mr Jefferson had some changes of heart during that period. In Query XIV: "Laws" Jefferson wrote that blacks were inferior to both whites and Indians, although he did see that enslavement might well be the cause of what he saw as lesser beings.
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Get a new dog, Somerville. Your link is screwed up. The quote by Franklin was by Franklin, not Roger Sherman, and was recorded in James Madison's records. The Franklin Prayer Myth Put the quote in Google and it's all Franklin on the net who shows up as the author of that quote.

There are also other quotes by Franklin that show that by the time of the Constitutional Convention, he was not a deist.
 
On March 9, 1790, Franklin write to Ezra Stiles, President of Yale University:

Franklin: "Here is my creed. I believe in one God, the Creator of the universe. That he governs it by his providence.

And in his "Maxims and Morals" Frankln wrote: "I never doubted the existence of the Deity, that he made the world, AND GOVERNED IT BY HIS PROVIDENCE."

Some deist, LOL.
 
Logicman said:
Get a new dog, Somerville. Your link is screwed up. The quote by Franklin was by Franklin, not Roger Sherman, and was recorded in James Madison's records. The Franklin Prayer Myth Put the quote in Google and it's all Franklin on the net who shows up as the author of that quote.

There are also other quotes by Franklin that show that by the time of the Constitutional Convention, he was not a deist.
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Oh wow, you have to resort to a TRIPOD link to back up your claim. How very scholarly.
 
Logicman said:
On March 9, 1790, Franklin write to Ezra Stiles, President of Yale University:

Franklin: "Here is my creed. I believe in one God, the Creator of the universe. That he governs it by his providence.

And in his "Maxims and Morals" Frankln wrote: "I never doubted the existence of the Deity, that he made the world, AND GOVERNED IT BY HIS PROVIDENCE."

Some deist, LOL.
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That is the language that many deists adopted. Using the ephanism 'The creator' , and 'The Diety' is the alternate terminology that they used instead of 'God' and Jesus.

So, those quotes actually push the concept of him being a deist, rather than a Christian.
 
RAMOSS said:
That is the language that many deists adopted. Using the ephanism 'The creator' , and 'The Diety' is the alternate terminology that they used instead of 'God' and Jesus.

So, those quotes actually push the concept of him being a deist, rather than a Christian.
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Still trying to argue he's a deist? When it's clear Franklin is saying God is governing the world? You have a bad habit of always trying to extricate yourself from your screwed-up claims and postings.
 
Logicman said:
Still trying to argue he's a deist? When it's clear Franklin is saying God is governing the world? You have a bad habit of always trying to extricate yourself from your screwed-up claims and postings.
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From the language of the quotes being used , yes. You seem to be quite unable to understand things. Notice 'The Deity'.. where does the concept of 'Deism' come from.. the 'Deity'.

Your lack of understanding of Deism, and the founding fathers is noted.
 
RAMOSS said:
From the language of the quotes being used , yes. You seem to be quite unable to understand things. Notice 'The Deity'.. where does the concept of 'Deism' come from.. the 'Deity'.

Your lack of understanding of Deism, and the founding fathers is noted.
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<facepalm>

Phew. It's going to take quite some time to get the stink of your bizarre analyses out of this thread.
 
Logicman said:
<facepalm>

Phew. It's going to take quite some time to get the stink of your bizarre analyses out of this thread.
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You can complain all you want, however, other than the argument from assertion, you can't showed a darn thing.. and a misinterpretation of the facts as presented. But, I am sure you are use of being wrong, just look at the quality of your sources. a 'Tripod' link, and an insane blog
 
Logicman said:
On March 9, 1790, Franklin write to Ezra Stiles, President of Yale University:

Franklin: "Here is my creed. I believe in one God, the Creator of the universe. That he governs it by his providence.

And in his "Maxims and Morals" Frankln wrote: "I never doubted the existence of the Deity, that he made the world, AND GOVERNED IT BY HIS PROVIDENCE."

Some deist, LOL.
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But those ARE Deist principles. Placing faith in a natural creator and predeterminism, while rejecting "divine intervention".


OM
 
(what followed after Franklin's "governs it by his Providence" quote)

"As to Jesus of Nazareth, my Opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the System of Morals and his Religion as he left them to us, the best the World ever saw, or is likely to see; but I apprehend it has received various corrupting Changes, and I have with most of the present Dissenters in England, some Doubts as to his Divinity: tho' it is a Question I do not dogmatise upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an Opportunity of knowing the Truth with less Trouble."

Those were his final thoughts on the subject, as he would be dead within a month.

To actual Christians, those words are heresy.



OM
 
Omega Man said:
(what followed after Franklin's "governs it by his Providence" quote)

"As to Jesus of Nazareth, my Opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the System of Morals and his Religion as he left them to us, the best the World ever saw, or is likely to see; but I apprehend it has received various corrupting Changes, and I have with most of the present Dissenters in England, some Doubts as to his Divinity: tho' it is a Question I do not dogmatise upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an Opportunity of knowing the Truth with less Trouble."

Those were his final thoughts on the subject, as he would be dead within a month.

To actual Christians, those words are heresy.



OM
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In other words, Logicman's source did the technique known as 'quote mining'. This is a form of lying where a partial quote is given to give a false impression of the author's actual viewpoint.
 
Omega Man said:
But those ARE Deist principles. Placing faith in a natural creator and predeterminism, while rejecting "divine intervention".
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Well, trying to claim non-deism believers are believers in deism simply because they believe in a 'deity,' as Ramoss argued, is a totally bizarre rationale.
 
Logicman said:
Well, trying to claim non-deism believers are believers in deism simply because they believe in a 'deity,' as Ramoss argued, is a totally bizarre rationale.
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...and yet he clearly articulated and exemplified classic 18th century Deist principles, while simultaneously professing his lack of knowledge as to Christian dogma.


OM
 
Logicman said:
Still trying to argue he's a deist? When it's clear Franklin is saying God is governing the world? You have a bad habit of always trying to extricate yourself from your screwed-up claims and postings.
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Well, he is wrong...the Bible plainly states Satan is governing the world so that also means he's running the political system as well...
 
Elvira said:
Well, he is wrong...the Bible plainly states Satan is governing the world so that also means he's running the political system as well...
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Methinks ol' Ben Franklin wouldn't agree with either of you. :)


OM
 
Elvira said:
I care what the Bible says...not what Ole Ben or LM thinks...
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Yes, the Bible is a wonderful compendium of moral tales, myths, and oral traditions reduced to writing.


OM
 
Omega Man said:
...and yet he clearly articulated and exemplified classic 18th century Deist principles, while simultaneously professing his lack of knowledge as to Christian dogma.


OM
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Bull. Ramoss doesn't know what he's talking about, and neither do you.
 
Elvira said:
Well, he is wrong...the Bible plainly states Satan is governing the world so that also means he's running the political system as well...
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Satan is always subject to God stepping in when he wants to. Example: Satan's plan was to have Jesus killed in Bethlehem. God stepped in and warned Joseph.
 
Logicman said:
Bull. Ramoss doesn't know what he's talking about, and neither do you.
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Not at all. Try studying 18th century history once in a while, in addition to learning to discern the notable ideological language differences between 18th century Christianity, and 18th century Deism.


OM
 
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