Medhi Hasan vs. 20 Conservatives - Jubilee video

[JohnfrmClevelan]

I'm sure by now that many of you have seen clips of the full video (below), but yesterday I sat through the whole thing. It was a painful watch. I put it here because there were a lot of Constitutional issues discussed. In this series of videos, one expert individually debates with young conservatives on a few chosen subjects. Pete Buttigieg did a great one, and seemed to make some progress. This one with Medhi Hasan was much more combative.



I don't know where these young conservatives were gathered from, but there was a frightening number who were openly hostile to Hasan. (Immigration was one of the subjects.) Also a large number who wished to make wholesale changes to the Constitution. If they are at all representative of young conservatives, we have a troubled future ahead.

Thoughts?

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

I'm sure by now that many of you have seen clips of the full video (below), but yesterday I sat through the whole thing. It was a painful watch. I put it here because there were a lot of Constitutional issues discussed. In this series of videos, one expert individually debates with young conservatives on a few chosen subjects. Pete Buttigieg did a great one, and seemed to make some progress. This one with Medhi Hasan was much more combative.



I don't know where these young conservatives were gathered from, but there was a frightening number who were openly hostile to Hasan. (Immigration was one of the subjects.) Also a large number who wished to make wholesale changes to the Constitution. If they are at all representative of young conservatives, we have a troubled future ahead.

Thoughts?

A lot of them don't even want to preserve the Constitution, preferring outright dictatorship.
That is some sick-ass shit. We fought a bloody revolution against that sort of thing and now these whiny pissants want it back?
One participants views offended his boss so much he was given his walking papers, and now he's crying to Give-Send-Go for the milk of populist socialism to save him.
What happened to bootstraps? He's no different than some 22 year old homeless guy on the corner begging for money save for the fact that he gets to use the internet to panhandle.
Whiny spoiled momma's boys who whack it to Hitler every night, that's all these people are.

 

[JohnfrmClevelan]

A lot of them don't even want to preserve the Constitution, preferring outright dictatorship.
That is some sick-ass shit. We fought a bloody revolution against that sort of thing and now these whiny pissants want it back?
One participants views offended his boss so much he was given his walking papers, and now he's crying to Give-Send-Go for the milk of populist socialism to save him.
What happened to bootstraps? He's no different than some 22 year old homeless guy on the corner begging for money save for the fact that he gets to use the internet to panhandle.
Whiny spoiled momma's boys who whack it to Hitler every night, that's all these people are.

There's probably another two or three that will lose their jobs because of this video.

The thing that struck me was the open racism towards Hasan. I understand that some of these people were in it for the shock value and the immediate support of the other members, but being that hostile face-to-face with another human being seemed like it would be the norm for a few of them. It's one thing to be combative online, quite another to be a dick in person.

A few of them did their homework, but I thought that Hasan slapped all of them down pretty well. One of those guys that did his homework was quoting an old German Nazi, and that was never going to be a winning argument.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

There's probably another two or three that will lose their jobs because of this video.

The thing that struck me was the open racism towards Hasan. I understand that some of these people were in it for the shock value and the immediate support of the other members, but being that hostile face-to-face with another human being seemed like it would be the norm for a few of them. It's one thing to be combative online, quite another to be a dick in person.

A few of them did their homework, but I thought that Hasan slapped all of them down pretty well. One of those guys that did his homework was quoting an old German Nazi, and that was never going to be a winning argument.

I'm relieved that my father died in 1986, because if he was alive to witness this it would kill him on the spot.
A German Jew who fled to NYC in 1937, got naturalized, then got drafted, found himself right BACK IN Germany wearing an Army uniform, took two Nazi bullets to the neck and jaw.

 

[Surrealistik]

I'm sure by now that many of you have seen clips of the full video (below), but yesterday I sat through the whole thing. It was a painful watch. I put it here because there were a lot of Constitutional issues discussed. In this series of videos, one expert individually debates with young conservatives on a few chosen subjects. Pete Buttigieg did a great one, and seemed to make some progress. This one with Medhi Hasan was much more combative.



I don't know where these young conservatives were gathered from, but there was a frightening number who were openly hostile to Hasan. (Immigration was one of the subjects.) Also a large number who wished to make wholesale changes to the Constitution. If they are at all representative of young conservatives, we have a troubled future ahead.

Thoughts?

While I don't believe that this mostly unhinged group of 20 is representative of the whole of MAGA, it is nonetheless greatly concerning for three reasons:

1. The youth of these people, showcasing just how badly our society and institutions have failed our children and young adults.

2. The fact that they can openly and confidently vouch for and support such previously unthinkable and utterly censurable things as Nazism, fascism, tearing up the Constitution on an entirely partisan basis, and the denaturalization and deportation of even entirely legal American citizens.

3. The fact that they represent at the very least a substantial minority of MAGA.

Having said that, the vast, overwhelming majority of their arguments and positions were utter drek and absurdity if not insanity, and they only ever began to make sense on stopping aid, or at the least, unconditional aid to Israel. I have to admit I was surprised to see that even these guys were repulsed by the IDF's wholesale, criminal campaign of destruction/ethnic cleansing in Gaza.

 

[Rexedgar]

I'm relieved that my father died in 1986, because if he was alive to witness this it would kill him on the spot.
A German Jew who fled to NYC in 1937, got naturalized, then got drafted, found himself right BACK IN Germany wearing an Army uniform, took two Nazi bullets to the neck and jaw.

What was your pop’s military job?

 

[JohnfrmClevelan]

While I don't believe that this mostly unhinged group of 20 is representative of the whole of MAGA, it is nonetheless greatly concerning for three reasons:

1. The youth of these people, showcasing just how badly our society and institutions have failed our children and young adults.

2. The fact that they can openly and confidently vouch for and support such previously unthinkable and utterly censurable things as Nazism, fascism, tearing up the Constitution on an entirely partisan basis, and the denaturalization and deportation of even entirely legal American citizens.

3. The fact that they represent at the very least a substantial minority of MAGA.

Having said that, the vast, overwhelming majority of their arguments and positions were utter drek and absurdity if not insanity, and they only ever began to make sense on stopping aid, or at the least, unconditional aid to Israel. I have to admit I was surprised to see that even these guys were repulsed by the IDF's wholesale, criminal campaign of destruction/ethnic cleansing in Gaza.

1. Young people usually aren't very political. Even now, we still have low Dem voter turnout from young people. I thought this election might be different, because the abortion issue seemed to be energizing women after Roe was overturned, plus you had a woman running. But on trump's side, he has a lot of fanboys. I don't know if that translated to a big voter turnout, but young men here certainly have a thing for trump. I doubt that there is much thought behind that, but that's typical of young men.

2. They embolden each other. Before trump made it OK to be a white nationalist, they pretty much kept their mouths shut and played with guns in the woods. The whole right-wing ecosystem allowed it to happen; there was no pushback against extremism or Nazism from FOX, and plenty of safe spaces popped up where they could talk their sh!t.

3. These kids were loud and proud of their beliefs, much louder than most. I don't think they are representative of most Republicans simply because they are so extreme and bombastic, but I also don't see many Republicans pushing back on this extreme stuff, either. There's a kind of quiet acquiescence to these issues and how policies are being implemented.

I didn't notice that they were terribly aghast at the ethnic cleansing. And I hated how they got to their position on the Middle East - through Christian nationalism. Maybe I should rewatch that part... ugh.

 

[Surrealistik]

1. Young people usually aren't very political. Even now, we still have low Dem voter turnout from young people. I thought this election might be different, because the abortion issue seemed to be energizing women after Roe was overturned, plus you had a woman running. But on trump's side, he has a lot of fanboys. I don't know if that translated to a big voter turnout, but young men here certainly have a thing for trump. I doubt that there is much thought behind that, but that's typical of young men.

2. They embolden each other. Before trump made it OK to be a white nationalist, they pretty much kept their mouths shut and played with guns in the woods. The whole right-wing ecosystem allowed it to happen; there was no pushback against extremism or Nazism from FOX, and plenty of safe spaces popped up where they could talk their sh!t.

3. These kids were loud and proud of their beliefs, much louder than most. I don't think they are representative of most Republicans simply because they are so extreme and bombastic, but I also don't see many Republicans pushing back on this extreme stuff, either. There's a kind of quiet acquiescence to these issues and how policies are being implemented.

I didn't notice that they were terribly aghast at the ethnic cleansing. And I hated how they got to their position on the Middle East - through Christian nationalism. Maybe I should rewatch that part... ugh.

1. Honestly, and from personal experience, I don't think it's because Dem youth aren't political, I think it's because they're demotivated if not demoralized (and I can tell you that this is surely where a great deal of the swing to the extreme right has come from more generally; 50ish years of real median wage declines vs healthcare, rent, housing and education, through both Dem and Republican admins, Houses and Senates, virtual stagnation otherwise, is a hell of a drug). Frankly, present Dem leadership and brass has been consistently terrible about creating a *positive* case to vote (their arguments have almost always been about preserving things from Trump as opposed to active improvement), and I believe that was reflected in Kamala's narrow swing-state loss. If our party is even half way smart and wishes to ensure its political future, it will pay very close attention to and emulate Mamdani's laser focus on the cost of living problem, even if it doesn't always choose to adopt social democrat policies to tackle it.

2. For sure; the popularization and publicization of these previously unthinkable views owes a lot to the right wing media space and its tolerance and increasing normalization among the right.

3. I don't even think they're necessarily representative of most MAGA, but they are absolutely representative of an alarmingly large, and growing, subset of MAGA.

As to the ethnic cleansing, to my recollection, I think only the strangely overdressed Iranian guy really championed Israel's position; everyone else was generally opposed to Israel's conduct even if they weren't especially outspoken and ardent about it.

 

[ElChupacabra]

I'm sure by now that many of you have seen clips of the full video (below), but yesterday I sat through the whole thing. It was a painful watch. I put it here because there were a lot of Constitutional issues discussed. In this series of videos, one expert individually debates with young conservatives on a few chosen subjects. Pete Buttigieg did a great one, and seemed to make some progress. This one with Medhi Hasan was much more combative.



I don't know where these young conservatives were gathered from, but there was a frightening number who were openly hostile to Hasan. (Immigration was one of the subjects.) Also a large number who wished to make wholesale changes to the Constitution. If they are at all representative of young conservatives, we have a troubled future ahead.

Thoughts?

I watched the whole thing and think it wasn't a good representation of a debate since none of the participants really presented good counter arguments to each of the statements Hasan made. Hasan interrupted to much which I found really annoying. Kai was probably the best best at communicating somewhat coherently.

 

[Surrealistik]

I watched the whole thing and think it wasn't a good representation of a debate since none of the participants really presented good counter arguments to each of the statements Hasan made. Hasan interrupted to much which I found really annoying. Kai was probably the best best at communicating somewhat coherently.

It's not; these 20 v 1 formats are always a shit show as opposed to proper formal debate.

100% agree on Hasan being too eager and aggressive in his debating style for his own good in many cases though, at the cost of his own persuasiveness, but it's hard to say that, in the end, he was ever truly beaten on any front; I struggle to think of a single example. Perhaps the closest he ever came to losing a point was on admitting that the 14th Amendment is abused per anchor babies and that it results in broken families? In fairness to him though, I don't think he was ever truly arguing against that notion.

 

[JohnfrmClevelan]

I watched the whole thing and think it wasn't a good representation of a debate since none of the participants really presented good counter arguments to each of the statements Hasan made. Hasan interrupted to much which I found really annoying. Kai was probably the best best at communicating somewhat coherently.

I'd like to say that he did his homework, but he had no idea how to actually (legally) change the Constitution. And he didn't think through his citizenship test point at all. He was calm, but he still lost badly.

I don't think reasonable responses to Hasan's points really exist. Maybe that's my bias, but I think he clearly won the day.

 

[JohnfrmClevelan]

It's not; these 20 v 1 formats are always a shit show as opposed to proper formal debate.

100% agree on Hasan being too eager and aggressive in his debating style for his own good in many cases though, at the cost of his own persuasiveness, but it's hard to say that, in the end, he was ever truly beaten on any front; I struggle to think of a single example. Perhaps the closest he ever came to losing a point was on admitting that the 14th Amendment is abused per anchor babies and that it results in broken families? In fairness to him though, I don't think he was ever truly arguing against that notion.

Mayor Pete's video, which came out a while back, was much more productive. As usual, he changes some minds.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

What was your pop’s military job?

Probably not a surprise, he was a Staff Sergeant in the Signal Corps and his job was pretty much disinfo, because he was a native German speaker with a lot of motivation.
Prior to the war he was already well versed in electronics, too.

 

[Parrish]

Probably not a surprise, he was a Staff Sergeant in the Signal Corps and his job was pretty much disinfo, because he was a native German speaker with a lot of motivation.
Prior to the war he was already well versed in electronics, too.

He was hero. He's proud of you.

 

[Surrealistik]

Mayor Pete's video, which came out a while back, was much more productive. As usual, he changes some minds.

Don't get me wrong, while it didn't particularly succeed in the context of being a proper debate, I think this is a fantastic video for warding people away from MAGA.

 

[JohnfrmClevelan]

Don't get me wrong, while it didn't particularly succeed in the context of being a proper debate, I think this is a fantastic video for warding people away from MAGA.

I just finished watching an interview with Hasan on the subject, and they discussed shining a light on these guys vs. giving them a platform. The conclusion was that people need to see this, which I agree with (or else I never would have started this thread). But these guys, some of whom are already influencers, are getting tons of attention from this, and just like we see here, people that want them to have won the argument are congratulating them for having won the argument.

It's tough to change minds.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

I just finished watching an interview with Hasan on the subject, and they discussed shining a light on these guys vs. giving them a platform. The conclusion was that people need to see this, which I agree with (or else I never would have started this thread). But these guys, some of whom are already influencers, are getting tons of attention from this, and just like we see here, people that want them to have won the argument are congratulating them for having won the argument.

It's tough to change minds.

Maybe I'm mistaken, maybe my COVID brain has names switched around, but I could swear that when you first joined this forum you were much more right wing, or am I having a brain fart?
Note: I did not say "conservative"...I said "right wing".
I'm asking because if my memory is correct, you seem to have evolved to a much more moderate point of view on issues.

Help an old man out and correct me if I am wrong and confused you with someone else.

 

[JohnfrmClevelan]

Maybe I'm mistaken, maybe my COVID brain has names switched around, but I could swear that when you first joined this forum you were much more right wing, or am I having a brain fart?
Note: I did not say "conservative"...I said "right wing".
I'm asking because if my memory is correct, you seem to have evolved to a much more moderate point of view on issues.

Help an old man out and correct me if I am wrong and confused you with someone else.

Brain fart, definitely.

 

[Surrealistik]

A lot of them don't even want to preserve the Constitution, preferring outright dictatorship.
That is some sick-ass shit. We fought a bloody revolution against that sort of thing and now these whiny pissants want it back?
One participants views offended his boss so much he was given his walking papers, and now he's crying to Give-Send-Go for the milk of populist socialism to save him.
What happened to bootstraps? He's no different than some 22 year old homeless guy on the corner begging for money save for the fact that he gets to use the internet to panhandle.
Whiny spoiled momma's boys who whack it to Hitler every night, that's all these people are.

https://archive.ph/yZDWa

To hopefully the surprise of no one, this man has sadly shattered his goal.

I just finished watching an interview with Hasan on the subject, and they discussed shining a light on these guys vs. giving them a platform. The conclusion was that people need to see this, which I agree with (or else I never would have started this thread). But these guys, some of whom are already influencers, are getting tons of attention from this, and just like we see here, people that want them to have won the argument are congratulating them for having won the argument.

It's tough to change minds.

I don't think it's possible to change the mind of people as deeply entrenched in MAGA cultism as the majority of those on the debate, but I do think it is possible to scare people away from its rabbit hole, or continuing their descent into it.

 

[Jason Warfield]

There's probably another two or three that will lose their jobs because of this video.

The thing that struck me was the open racism towards Hasan. I understand that some of these people were in it for the shock value and the immediate support of the other members, but being that hostile face-to-face with another human being seemed like it would be the norm for a few of them. It's one thing to be combative online, quite another to be a dick in person.

A few of them did their homework, but I thought that Hasan slapped all of them down pretty well. One of those guys that did his homework was quoting an old German Nazi, and that was never going to be a winning argument.

The one who proudly proclaimed to be a fascist did wind up losing his job.

Who is Connor Estelle? Man loses job after 'I'm a fascist' remark; raises $20K in donations - Times of India

US News: Connor Estelle, who identified himself as a fascist during a debate, claims he was fired for his “traditional right-wing views.” Estelle, known as Pin

timesofindia.indiatimes.com

 

[Grogu]

The one who proudly proclaimed to be a fascist did wind up losing his job.

Who is Connor Estelle? Man loses job after 'I'm a fascist' remark; raises $20K in donations - Times of India

US News: Connor Estelle, who identified himself as a fascist during a debate, claims he was fired for his “traditional right-wing views.” Estelle, known as Pin

timesofindia.indiatimes.com

Looks like someone in the world doesn’t care to have that fascist working for them. I hazard to say though, that his attitude probably had more to do with his new unemployment situation than his views. They all had bad attitudes, for that matter. Bunch of right wing jackals.

When one watches a thoroughly prepared Medhi Hasan take apart everything these young radicals had to say, you can’t help but wonder who raised these kids. They all probably identify as nothing more than conservatives, because that description somehow normalizes their radical views. They haven’t been on the earth long enough to be able to figure out what a conservative even is, let alone purport to be one.

If Democrats were smart, they would burst that “conservative” bubble these Republicans hide behind, and call them what they are- radicals. Turn the tables on them, constantly refer to them as the radical party in this country, and do it until it sticks. Wear it out. MAGA = radical. The Republicans in this country, like these misguided kids, are trying to upend everything this country had become up until now, and that brands them as the true radicals, not anyone on the left like they portray.

 

[Rexedgar]

Probably not a surprise, he was a Staff Sergeant in the Signal Corps and his job was pretty much disinfo, because he was a native German speaker with a lot of motivation.
Prior to the war he was already well versed in electronics, too.

You ever hear of the “Ritchie Boys?”

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

You ever hear of the “Ritchie Boys?”

Of course.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

To hopefully the surprise of no one, this man has sadly shattered his goal.

What he's calling "cancel culture" is nothing more than his boss seeing the segment and realizing how much of an asshole the guy is.

 

[StillBallin75]

People somehow surprised that the logical endpoint of conservative politics is just reactionary fascism, when leftists have been trying to tell everyone all along.

These kids are pilled beyond repair. Just stupid and evil, and evil because they are stupid.