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LIVE COVERAGE: Active shooter in custody at Santa Fe HS***[W:13]***[W:1213]

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Re: LIVE COVERAGE: Active shooter in custody at Santa Fe HS

Everything you listed would have done nothing in either of the last 2 shootings. In fact they wouldnt have made a difference in ANY school shootings going all the way back to Columbine.



“Everything you listed would have done nothing in either of the last 2 shootings. In fact they wouldnt have made a difference in ANY school shootings going all the way back to Columbine.”

I was not addressing only school shootings. Plus, many mass shootings, including the schools, involve high-capacity magazines, especially the AK47 and AR15 variants. Having to reload gives an opportunity to take down the shooter and for others to escape, however brief a time that may be.

States with tighter gun control have fewer firearm deaths. Australia is an example of a country that took action when they’d had enough gun violence, even though their gun violence was still far below that of the US.

It isn’t just about gun violence. It’s about all firearm related deaths, especially suicide, that gun control laws impact.

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/02/27/sta...ms-deaths-heres-how-your-state-stacks-up.html

https://www.sciencealert.com/20-year-review-of-australia-s-gun-laws-has-one-clear-finding-they-work

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_control
 
Re: LIVE COVERAGE: Active shooter in custody at Santa Fe HS

If you can't follow a conversation, expect to be ridiculed. Like you were.

I expect it frim certain posters because it's all they have.
 
Re: LIVE COVERAGE: Active shooter in custody at Santa Fe HS

“Everything you listed would have done nothing in either of the last 2 shootings. In fact they wouldnt have made a difference in ANY school shootings going all the way back to Columbine.”

I was not addressing only school shootings. Plus, many mass shootings, including the schools, involve high-capacity magazines, especially the AK47 and AR15 variants. Having to reload gives an opportunity to take down the shooter and for others to escape, however brief a time that may be.

States with tighter gun control have fewer firearm deaths. Australia is an example of a country that took action when they’d had enough gun violence, even though their gun violence was still far below that of the US.

It isn’t just about gun violence. It’s about all firearm related deaths, especially suicide, that gun control laws impact.

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/02/27/sta...ms-deaths-heres-how-your-state-stacks-up.html

https://www.sciencealert.com/20-year-review-of-australia-s-gun-laws-has-one-clear-finding-they-work

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_control

Nicholas Cruz used 10 round magazines.
 
Re: LIVE COVERAGE: Active shooter in custody at Santa Fe HS

See what I mean? :lamo

Yes, we all see what you mean.

Now that you've embarrassed yourself enough, you should consider getting back on topic. Your inability to follow a discussion between two posters isn't the topic.
 
Re: LIVE COVERAGE: Active shooter in custody at Santa Fe HS

“Everything you listed would have done nothing in either of the last 2 shootings. In fact they wouldnt have made a difference in ANY school shootings going all the way back to Columbine.”

I was not addressing only school shootings. Plus, many mass shootings, including the schools, involve high-capacity magazines, especially the AK47 and AR15 variants. Having to reload gives an opportunity to take down the shooter and for others to escape, however brief a time that may be.

First off 60% of all mass shootings are done with handguns. Second, magazine limits have done nothing to prevent mass shootings. The VT shooter used handguns and ten round magazines, the Sandy Hook shooter reloaded before even emptying his entire magazine, the Pulse shooter reloaded several times, and the Parkland shooter used ten round magazines just to name a few.
States with tighter gun control have fewer firearm deaths.

That stat includes suicides. Counting only homicides, it's actually the stricter states that have a slightly more rate.

Australia is an example of a country that took action when they’d had enough gun violence, even though their gun violence was still far below that of the US.

It isn’t just about gun violence. It’s about all firearm related deaths, especially suicide, that gun control laws impact.

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/02/27/sta...ms-deaths-heres-how-your-state-stacks-up.html

https://www.sciencealert.com/20-year-review-of-australia-s-gun-laws-has-one-clear-finding-they-work

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_control
First link was addressed by the fact that they include suicides, the second link about Australia fails to mention that crime was already decreasing crime rate and the ban did nothing to drop that rate, and the third one was from Wikipedia.
 
Re: LIVE COVERAGE: Active shooter in custody at Santa Fe HS***[W:13]***

It shouldnt be done at the expense of the law-abiding. That's punishment.

Where are your proposed solutions?

How are law abiding people being hurt by laws?
 
Re: LIVE COVERAGE: Active shooter in custody at Santa Fe HS***[W:13]***

Please provide sources that prove that. You're already wrong in that most states do not license firearms.

That training reduces accidents.

And again, you didnt even acknowledge that training has no affect on gun crime or other deliberate shootings. It is not a solution to school shootings.

Laws can't pinpoint specific crimes, just criminal behavior in general. Gun laws can help deter gun related crimes, in general.
 
Re: LIVE COVERAGE: Active shooter in custody at Santa Fe HS

I think you're on to something there -- we're actually "creating them" and I think (just my opinion) it's due to some of the crap that's going on in public schools. We've gotten to the point, in many schools, where the entire school revolves around the athletes. That's where the money goes (in my town, the varsity B-ball players get their own parking spaces closest to the school), and kids who don't make the sport-cut are nobody, even if they're lots brighter (and they usually are). Everything's geared around sports and all the rest of the kids have to spend their days in the shadows.

I think that's it more than actual "bullying." These losers get the idea that they want to take down the ones who are at the top of the food chain -- make 'em pay -- and then they see all the attention other shooters get and the idea grows from a molehill to a mountain of revenge.

Personally, I'd get rid of school sports (not athletics, just sports) and move competitive teams over to community recreation. That'd not only break the "jock clique" it'd also stop cheer-leading, and seriously, can anything be more demeaning to women than to think it's an honor to cheer for males? I mean -- really!



Yes, people who can't deal with criticism and rejection become society's losers, and we have an over-abundance of them. But, let's stop the public school caste system that allows them to rise in the first place. Let's focus once again on academics.

Heck, I'd even be in favor of school-issued uniforms, just because I've seen children bullied because their parents didn't have the money to buy them the name-brand clothes that some of the kids wore.

A magic club sound amazing! And, those look good, but school events typically center around athletics, such as Homecoming. If schools just moved those competitive events to a community recreation program, it would reduce the caste system in schools.



Yes, natural food chains exist, but that doesn't mean we could create artificial ones in our schools.



I bet you never cheered for a magic club. ;) Or, at a debate tournament.

Nothing against you but I'm not a fan of cheerleading and I spent two years silently wishing my own daughter wasn't on the squad. She'd been a competitive gymnast prior so making the squad was a cinch and she enjoyed the social aspect but it always bothered me. She also played tennis and at the end of her sophomore year the two began to conflict so she dropped cheerleading - and I was thankful. Many of her friends remained on the squad and they're all good kids, I'm not saying they're not, but I still think cheerleading is demeaning. That's just me. I wanted more for my daughter.




I'm not denying any of that, but just because a natural pecking order occurs does not mean we should encourage one in our schools. One common link in all of these shooters is the fact that they were school "rejects." As you say, a pecking order will occur naturally in life, but in a school that's paid for with taxpayer dollars, every effort should be made to keep it from happening. And, if we're going to put emphasis on anything -- it should be on academics -- not on athletics.

I'm not making the claim that we can keep these kids from becoming shooters -- there's something messed up in their heads -- but by removing the extraneous crap from the schools, we might be able to lessen the artificial caste system and decrease the risk. And, gawd knows, it'd be a super side effect if our kids started learning a bit more, too.

That's just it--I don't think what you call the "caste system" in schools is artificial; I think it mirrors larger society and human nature.

Unlike my baby sister, who was a "twelve-year girl," I mainly attended public school but finished at a private all-girls school. Even in a same-sex school, which I think is great if you want your kids to focus more on academics, there is a "pecking order." There are always going to be extroverts and introverts, leaders and followers, and so on.

You may appreciate this true story: When my daughter was little and the neighbors' girl her age had signed up for a tots cheerleading camp, I asked if she were interested. She looked at me as if I were stupid and dryly said, "No, mommie--I'll be the one people are cheering for." (And she was.)
 
Re: LIVE COVERAGE: Active shooter in custody at Santa Fe HS

That's just it--I don't think what you call the "caste system" in schools is artificial; I think it mirrors larger society and human nature.

It "mirrors" but I think it's artificial in that it focuses on athletic prowess. In the real world, the pecking order has the wealthy and accomplished at the top and works its way down from there. But, once out of school (unless you go into professional sports) it really doesn't matter if you're the best in the neighborhood at "shooting hoops" if you don't live in a nice house and drive a nice car. That's why I say the school caste is artificial, but I do agree with you that the castes happen naturally everywhere.

Unlike my baby sister, who was a "twelve-year girl," I mainly attended public school but finished at a private all-girls school. Even in a same-sex school, which I think is great if you want your kids to focus more on academics, there is a "pecking order." There are always going to be extroverts and introverts, leaders and followers, and so on.

You may appreciate this true story: When my daughter was little and the neighbors' girl her age had signed up for a tots cheerleading camp, I asked if she were interested. She looked at me as if I were stupid and dryly said, "No, mommie--I'll be the one people are cheering for." (And she was.)

LOL -- Okay -- I officially love your kid! That's what I want to hear from every girl out there!

You done good, momma.
 
Re: LIVE COVERAGE: Active shooter in custody at Santa Fe HS

I beg to differ as the differences between an AR 15 and Mini 14 are more than just cosmetic. They're also functional. As a former military man ask yourself this question. If you knew you were about to enter into major combat and was given the choice between using an AR 15 and a Mini 14. Which are you going to choose? Of course you are going choose the AR 15. You'd be a fool not to, chiefly because of all those 'cosmetic differences'. For when the **** hits the fan your adrenaline starts surging and those fine motor skills that came so easily before suddenly begin to desert you. Those 'cosmetic differences' as you say then become all the more critical.

As for things like pistol grips and flash suppressor are concerned. Just think of the tools we use that incorporate a pistol grip into it's design. Things like drills, nail guns, glue guns and caulking guns. Why? Because they allow you to use these tools with greater control and precision. They also make it possible to ergonomically position the operating controls.

It's the same for an assault rifle. A pistol grip allows for greater recoil and followup shot control. It aides accuracy by allowing for a more postive shoulder press and cheek weld. It makes holding and manipulating the controls of the gun easier to do in a wider variety of positions. Same with a flash suppressor. If the absence of a flash suppressor degrades the vision of an active shooter by putting spots in front of his eyes. That's good thing. Not a bad thing. The idea is to make the execution part of the act harder for an active shooter by introducing all these other encumbrances upon him. Such as limited capacity magazines, no pistol grips, no flash suppressors and controls that are ergonomically more difficult to operate. Each one by itself may seem insignificant but taken all together they can definitely help to significantly mitigate the damage an active shooter is able to do.

BTW the 1955 K38 Masterpiece is indeed a beautiful classic gun. I had a S&W Model K17 Masterpiece revolver. Just loved the lines of it. Also had a Dan Wesson Pistol Pack II First issue with the interchangeable barrels from 2 1/2 inches to 8 inches. Wish I had kept those guns because they would be worth much more now than what I had payed for them.

You are again just showing your ignorance on the subject.

Compared: AR-15 (CMMG M4 LE) and Ruger Mini-14 Tactical .223 Carbines

Both carbines scored similarly and we found little to choose between them. Overall, Dave preferred the AR-15 M4 LE. Rocky was surprised that both carbines shot as accurately as they did. He thought the AR-15 was simpler to operate, but that the Mini-14 would be more durable and reliable in the long run, due to its all steel barreled action and gas piston operation. Chuck basically concurred with Rocky in this assessment. He picked the Mini-14 Tactical overall, mostly because its cleaner operating action requires less maintenance. Bob also picked the Mini-14, as he thought it fit him better. Jim thought these tactical carbines pointless and found little to like about either. - https://www.chuckhawks.com/compared_AR-15_Mini-14.htm

#1 A pistol grip allows for greater recoil and followup shot control. False.
#2 It aides accuracy by allowing for a more postive shoulder press and cheek weld. False. It depends on the shooter, stock size and size of the shooters hand etc.
#3 It makes holding and manipulating the controls of the gun easier to do in a wider variety of positions. False. Depends on many factors including make of the weapon and users hand size.
#4 The idea is to make the execution part of the act harder for an active shooter by introducing all these other encumbrances upon him. False. Bans on flash suppressors, bayonets and pistol grips are laughably ineffective. Just like the 94' assault weapons ban. It had zero effect on crime. When was the last time someone was bayoneted in the commision of a crime? Is that why they banned bayonet lugs as well?

OK we are done here. tired of you spinning nonsense for gun control which is NOW what you are doing.

Talk about a bull**** meter.
 
Re: LIVE COVERAGE: Active shooter in custody at Santa Fe HS

I think you're on to something there -- we're actually "creating them" and I think (just my opinion) it's due to some of the crap that's going on in public schools. We've gotten to the point, in many schools, where the entire school revolves around the athletes. That's where the money goes (in my town, the varsity B-ball players get their own parking spaces closest to the school), and kids who don't make the sport-cut are nobody, even if they're lots brighter (and they usually are). Everything's geared around sports and all the rest of the kids have to spend their days in the shadows.

I think that's it more than actual "bullying." These losers get the idea that they want to take down the ones who are at the top of the food chain -- make 'em pay -- and then they see all the attention other shooters get and the idea grows from a molehill to a mountain of revenge.

Personally, I'd get rid of school sports (not athletics, just sports) and move competitive teams over to community recreation. That'd not only break the "jock clique" it'd also stop cheer-leading, and seriously, can anything be more demeaning to women than to think it's an honor to cheer for males? I mean -- really!



Yes, people who can't deal with criticism and rejection become society's losers, and we have an over-abundance of them. But, let's stop the public school caste system that allows them to rise in the first place. Let's focus once again on academics.

Heck, I'd even be in favor of school-issued uniforms, just because I've seen children bullied because their parents didn't have the money to buy them the name-brand clothes that some of the kids wore.

It "mirrors" but I think it's artificial in that it focuses on athletic prowess. In the real world, the pecking order has the wealthy and accomplished at the top and works its way down from there. But, once out of school (unless you go into professional sports) it really doesn't matter if you're the best in the neighborhood at "shooting hoops" if you don't live in a nice house and drive a nice car. That's why I say the school caste is artificial, but I do agree with you that the castes happen naturally everywhere.



LOL -- Okay -- I officially love your kid! That's what I want to hear from every girl out there!

You done good, momma.

Not that I wasn't taken aback at the time, but I also thought, "By golly, that's the ticket!"
 
Re: LIVE COVERAGE: Active shooter in custody at Santa Fe HS

Yeah which would do dick to stop the lat few school shooting, but hey, you'll feel like you did something good, and when shootings still happen you'll demand more measures. We get it.



You failed to comprehend my post. I did not single-out school shootings alone. Nor mass shootings, nor just gun violence. It's all firearm related deaths and it would be the measures taken that have worked. You make a false assumption. So, no, you don't get it.
 
Re: LIVE COVERAGE: Active shooter in custody at Santa Fe HS

You failed to comprehend my post. I did not single-out school shootings alone. Nor mass shootings, nor just gun violence. It's all firearm related deaths and it would be the measures taken that have worked. You make a false assumption. So, no, you don't get it.

I do appologize, and I'm not being flippant, but what measures can achieve all that?
 
Re: LIVE COVERAGE: Active shooter in custody at Santa Fe HS

That all sounds very good until you take into consideration that competition skeet guns are designed to be superior in balance and natural point-ability. Also I doubt that active shooters are employing military style room clearing techniques. They're just interested having a weapon that makes it as easy for them to kill as many people as possible as quickly as possible with a minimum amount of fuss.

in other words you're just speculating from a position of ignorance. we used common Remington 1100 riot guns for the trick shooting since they held ten rounds.
 
Re: LIVE COVERAGE: Active shooter in custody at Santa Fe HS

explain why you want to handicap honest citizens. Someone who intends to commit a crime with a firearm is not going to obey a magazine restriction-especially if they are already committing a felony by having the gun in the first place.



You make a false assumption by saying I want to “handicap honest citizens.” I don’t consider licensing and registration of autos a handicap. It does not prevent you from driving or owning a car. Nor would it from owning and operating a firearm. Firearm restrictions do not necessarily deny anyone their 2nd A rights where public safety is a concern.
 
Re: LIVE COVERAGE: Active shooter in custody at Santa Fe HS

You make a false assumption by saying I want to “handicap honest citizens.” I don’t consider licensing and registration of autos a handicap. It does not prevent you from driving or owning a car. Nor would it from owning and operating a firearm. Firearm restrictions do not necessarily deny anyone their 2nd A rights where public safety is a concern.

registration and licensing only impede honest people from owning guns by increasing the cost and the hassle. every group that wants to ban firearms wants licenses and registration. and its magazine limits that handicap honest people-a point I clearly explained and which you ignored
 
Re: LIVE COVERAGE: Active shooter in custody at Santa Fe HS

You make a false assumption by saying I want to “handicap honest citizens.” I don’t consider licensing and registration of autos a handicap. It does not prevent you from driving or owning a car. Nor would it from owning and operating a firearm. Firearm restrictions do not necessarily deny anyone their 2nd A rights where public safety is a concern.

Driving (on public roadways) is a state issued privilege not a constitutional right. Rights differ from mere state issued privileges in that they can only be removed/restricted by due process of law. I am, however, willing to accept the same reasonable restrictions on 2A rights as we are willing to place on voting rights - if one is legally registered to vote then they are legally registered to have 2A rights.
 
Re: LIVE COVERAGE: Active shooter in custody at Santa Fe HS

registration and licensing only impede honest people from owning guns by increasing the cost and the hassle. every group that wants to ban firearms wants licenses and registration. and its magazine limits that handicap honest people-a point I clearly explained and which you ignored

Carry restrictions are more of an impediment than magazine capacity restrictions - capacity of an unloaded and/or inaccessible gun is zero. I agree that whatever a police officer may carry in their own self defense, against common criminals, should be available to all potential victims of those common criminals. The idea that a standard capacity (15 to 17-round) magazine has somehow become high capacity (in some states) is ridiculous.
 
Re: LIVE COVERAGE: Active shooter in custody at Santa Fe HS

wrong-the CDC was prohibited from using tax dollars to advocate gun bans. The FBI and the DOJ study violent crime all the time.



The CDC budget for anything to do with studying gun violence was cut 96%. Can’t do much of anything with that, advocacy or not. That is, effectively, a ban on research. And the term “ban” is commonly used among legislators.

https://abcnews.go.com/Health/cdc-launched-comprehensive-gun-study-15-years/story?id=39873289

The FBI and DOJ do not look at many characteristics that CDC would. They do not have an integrated data system as would CDC. They do not do as comprehensive a study on how perpetrators acquire weapons, for instance, and thus come up with mistaken stats.
 
Re: LIVE COVERAGE: Active shooter in custody at Santa Fe HS

“Everything you listed would have done nothing in either of the last 2 shootings. In fact they wouldnt have made a difference in ANY school shootings going all the way back to Columbine.”

I was not addressing only school shootings. Plus, many mass shootings, including the schools, involve high-capacity magazines, especially the AK47 and AR15 variants. Having to reload gives an opportunity to take down the shooter and for others to escape, however brief a time that may be.

States with tighter gun control have fewer firearm deaths. Australia is an example of a country that took action when they’d had enough gun violence, even though their gun violence was still far below that of the US.

It isn’t just about gun violence. It’s about all firearm related deaths, especially suicide, that gun control laws impact.

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/02/27/sta...ms-deaths-heres-how-your-state-stacks-up.html

https://www.sciencealert.com/20-year-review-of-australia-s-gun-laws-has-one-clear-finding-they-work

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_control
Wonderful. Suicide. The anti-gun leftists last refuge.

Tell me...what are the suicide rates in Australia? Japan? England? And how are they committing suicide in those countries at such high rates without firearms?
 
Re: LIVE COVERAGE: Active shooter in custody at Santa Fe HS

Yes....and that's likely why the carnage was not worse. However more needs to be done in the way of security at entrances, exits, etc.

I mean ten dead nine of which were students, is that seen as a good result now in the US?
 
Re: LIVE COVERAGE: Active shooter in custody at Santa Fe HS

Driving (on public roadways) is a state issued privilege not a constitutional right. Rights differ from mere state issued privileges in that they can only be removed/restricted by due process of law. I am, however, willing to accept the same reasonable restrictions on 2A rights as we are willing to place on voting rights - if one is legally registered to vote then they are legally registered to have 2A rights.

And thus should legally register their firearms
 
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