LIVE COVERAGE: Active shooter in custody at Santa Fe HS***[W:13]***[W:1213]

[tres borrachos]

Re: LIVE COVERAGE: Active shooter in custody at Santa Fe HS

If you can't defend it, don't post it.

If you can't follow a conversation, don't try to troll up a thread.

Lursa and I were discussing, and she knew what I meant. You didn't, because you didn't follow the conversation. That's your issue, not anyone else's.

 

[haymarket]

Re: LIVE COVERAGE: Active shooter in custody at Santa Fe HS

Answer my question first please. To make sure there's no hypocrisy....or divulge if there is.

Hypocrisy regarding what exactly? Driving a car? I do not get the attempted connection you are trying to make between driving a car and owning a gun.

Its a red herring that you are dishonestly attempting to employ to avoid answering a direct questions as to if you think people of unsound mind should own guns.

We can argue all day about cars and guns but what is the point?

 

[Atomic Kid]

Re: LIVE COVERAGE: Active shooter in custody at Santa Fe HS

The 1 or 2 seconds in between changing out the 10 round magazines would have made almost no difference. Considering the body count I would say it did not matter at all.

Whether it be a pistol grip, thumbhole or regular stock makes no difference in load time. All the pistol grip does is give you a slightly more stable fring platform, maybe.

Here is a Ruger Mini 14. Fires exactly the same round and uses high capacity magazines as well.

View attachment 67233333

This is an AR-15 with a pistol grip. No difference.

View attachment 67233334

Reloading ANY magazine feed semi auto is fairly easy and quick. That is the whole idea behind having a magazine vs a clip or hand load.

This is obviously a statement by someone who knows little to nothing about weapons; The greater the likelihood is that he may have a malfunction eventually as apparently what happened with the Parkland shooter. Yes because the Parkland shooter had a malfunction, it must be a problem with all semi auto rifles. I am sorry but your statement is absolutely not true.

Now your ammo information while in general is actually correct. The hurricane windows would not have shattered no matter which ammo he used as they could not shatter them. They found 16 holes in the windows and they did not shatter.

What do you know about going up against an active shooter??? Nothing. Your information is dangerous and wrong.

There are very clear differences. First the particular Ruger Mini 14 in that picture would be illegal where I live because of the flash suppressor and the high capacity magazine would be illegal as well. Secondly with the absence of the pistol grip the Ruger would harder to hold with a just one hand with the rifle in the down and ready position and it's heavier than the typical AR 15 style rifle. The Ruger's magazine release is forward of the trigger guard so your trigger finger has off and out to depress it. The magazine release on the Ruger is also much smaller and not as easy and quick to manipulate a AR 15 style which is larger and extended and easily manipulated by your thumb. The magazine well on the Ruger is flush to bottom and has straight edges. Whereas the AR15 style weapon has an extended magazine well with an opening that is flared outwards in order to facilitate easier and quicker insertions. I don't know if you have ever shot a Ruger Mini 14. But you can't just slap in a new magazine straight into it. You have to 'rock' the magazine slightly forward in order to get the magazine into the well to get to where it catches and anyone who has used a mini 14 knows that getting a magazine to lock in can sometimes be tedious and annoying.

Also hurricane glass windows are bullet resistant, not bullet proof. So heavier FMJ 5.56 military rounds might well have been able to eventually overwhelm that glass window and I know enough about fire arms without ever having gone directly up against an active shooter to know that high velocity rifle rounds are far more deadly than any handgun or shotgun pellet.

 

[vegas giants]

Re: LIVE COVERAGE: Active shooter in custody at Santa Fe HS

Hypocrisy regarding what exactly? Driving a car? I do not get the attempted connection you are trying to make between driving a car and owning a gun.

Its a red herring that you are dishonestly attempting to employ to avoid answering a direct questions as to if you think people of unsound mind should own guns.

We can argue all day about cars and guns but what is the point?

There is no point

 

[Lursa]

Re: LIVE COVERAGE: Active shooter in custody at Santa Fe HS

Hypocrisy regarding what exactly? Driving a car? I do not get the attempted connection you are trying to make between driving a car and owning a gun.

Its a red herring that you are dishonestly attempting to employ to avoid answering a direct questions as to if you think people of unsound mind should own guns.

We can argue all day about cars and guns but what is the point?

Does this help clarify it for you? To see it all in one place?

Stop being coy. If someone has had any mental flags in their previous medical records...no matter what the status, they can be denied their 2A rights. I dont know if there is any process for them to challenge this. It's pretty ****ty, even if there is, since we're talking about generally lower socio-economic demographics if they depend on the $. It's discrimination without any due process.

You want people who are not of sound mind to have guns?

So by that same conclusion, why are these people still allowed to drive?

I did not ask you about driving . We were talking about guns. Do you want people who are of not sound mind to have guns?

You got a very relevant answer.

It pointed out the hypocrisy of restricting their 2A rights and yet allowing them to endanger the general public much more on a daily basis.

How about you tell me why it should ONLY apply to guns, if it is meant as a valid safety concern?

The hypocrisy is obvious. If you are going to prevent SS recipients from owning firearms for reasons of public safety based on the criteria of 'sound mind'...why are they allowed to retain their driving privileges?

In one case it's depriving them of a Constitutional right, in the other, a privilege that they may use on a regular basis...making it potentially much more dangerous.

And we were ONLY discussing the SS legislation. Dont pretend otherwise.

 

[Lursa]

Re: LIVE COVERAGE: Active shooter in custody at Santa Fe HS

If you can't follow a conversation, don't try to troll up a thread.

Lursa and I were discussing, and she knew what I meant. You didn't, because you didn't follow the conversation. That's your issue, not anyone else's.

It's reposted in 880.

 

[haymarket]

Re: LIVE COVERAGE: Active shooter in custody at Santa Fe HS

Does this help clarify it for you? To see it all in one place?












The hypocrisy is obvious. If you are going to prevent SS recipients from owning firearms for reasons of public safety based on the criteria of 'sound mind'...why are they allowed to retain their driving privileges?

In one case it's depriving them of a Constitutional right, in the other, a privilege that they may use on a regular basis...making it potentially much more dangerous.

And we were ONLY discussing the SS legislation. Dont pretend otherwise.

My personal opinion is that driving a car in modern day America is about 6,389 times more important to daily life and the demands of it for the vast majority of people than owning a gun that probably 95% will never use for anything other than perhaps target practice.

My personal opinion is that if a person is mentally ill and is declared so by a doctor, and the state wants to revoke their driving license because of that, I have no problem with it.

Now your turn to answer my question: do you want a person who is not of sound mind to own guns?

 

[tres borrachos]

Re: LIVE COVERAGE: Active shooter in custody at Santa Fe HS

It's reposted in 880.

I'm not sure apdst is going to care. He saw what he wanted, jumped in, and trolled it up. Frustrating as hell.

 

[Black Dog]

Re: LIVE COVERAGE: Active shooter in custody at Santa Fe HS

There are very clear differences. First the particular Ruger Mini 14 in that picture would be illegal where I live because of the flash suppressor and the high capacity magazine would be illegal as well. Secondly with the absence of the pistol grip the Ruger would harder to hold with a just one hand with the rifle in the down and ready position and it's heavier than the typical AR 15 style rifle. The Ruger's magazine release is forward of the trigger guard so your trigger finger has off and out to depress it. The magazine release on the Ruger is also much smaller and not as easy and quick to manipulate a AR 15 style which is larger and extended and easily manipulated by your thumb. The magazine well on the Ruger is flush to bottom and has straight edges. Whereas the AR15 style weapon has an extended magazine well with an opening that is flared outwards in order to facilitate easier and quicker insertions. I don't know if you have ever shot a Ruger Mini 14. But you can't just slap in a new magazine straight into it. You have to 'rock' the magazine slightly forward in order to get the magazine into the well to get to where it catches and anyone who has used a mini 14 knows that getting a magazine to lock in can sometimes be tedious and annoying.

Atomic Kid, just stop. Most of that is wrong. I actually used to shoot both those weapons as did MANY other GI's here who will tell you. The thing about harder to hold is total bull****. No truth to it whatsoever. Obviously you went online and looked up crap from a couple of message boards.

Also hurricane glass windows are bullet resistant, not bullet proof. So heavier FMJ 5.56 military rounds might well have been able to eventually overwhelm that glass window and I know enough about fire arms without ever having gone directly up against an active shooter to know that high velocity rifle rounds are far more deadly than any handgun or shotgun pellet.

Some DID go through the glass, they however could not shatter it. Some were stuck in the glass and some went all the way through. He also had low quality ammunition where the bullets were falling out of the casing. Combine this with a low quality rifle and this means that a lot of them had improper pressure when firing.

Just stop embarrassing yourself man. I was in the Army for 12 years and a cop. Been around these weapons all my life. All you are doing is spouting some other person's opinion from an obvious online search and comming to really bad and dangerous conclusions.

 

[Lursa]

Re: LIVE COVERAGE: Active shooter in custody at Santa Fe HS

My personal opinion is that driving a car in modern day America is about 6,389 times more important to daily life and the demands of it for the vast majority of people than owning a gun that probably 95% will never use for anything other than perhaps target practice.

My personal opinion is that if a person is mentally ill and is declared so by a doctor, and the state wants to revoke their driving license because of that, I have no problem with it.

Now your turn to answer my question: do you want a person who is not of sound mind to own guns?

So then you are ok with them discriminating against people for no good reason? They are not as worthy of a dr's diagnosis as to their capability, rather than govt bureaucracy? That their rights can be violated by rote bureaucracy? That answer appears to be yes.

It's interesting that you're ok with them potentially endangering everyone everday by a huge margin of risk tho. So indeed, public safety is NOT your primary interest.

And my answer to your question is no, I am not ok with people not of sound mind owning guns. I have posted repeatedly that we need to be able to identify and treat these people before they do harm and that background checks that include this criteria are good.

It also has nothing to do with the SS legislative repeal, because my belief was that it was spurious and targeted people whether they were actually judged to be of sound mind or not. And they're not.

 

[haymarket]

Re: LIVE COVERAGE: Active shooter in custody at Santa Fe HS

So then you are ok with them discriminating against people for no good reason?

Please stop right there. Put on your brakes. Stop it.

The reason is that the person is not of sound mind.

Do you comprehend that?

If not, there is no reason to go any further as I never thought I would live to see the day when gun fanatics defend the rights of the mentally ill to own guns but I guess we have crossed over into full blows CRAZYLAND and that is where you want to plant your flag. I hope not. I really hope not.

I hope this is your answer and you mean it

And my answer to your question is no, I am not ok with people not of sound mind owning guns. I have posted repeatedly that we need to be able to identify and treat these people before they do harm and that background checks that include this criteria are good.

And those people who have ADMITTED that they have disabling mental problems to Social Security fall into that obvious category by their own admission.

 

[Lursa]

Re: LIVE COVERAGE: Active shooter in custody at Santa Fe HS

Please stop right there. Put on your brakes. Stop it.

The reason is that the person is not of sound mind.

Do you comprehend that?

If not, there is no reason to go any further as I never thought I would live to see the day when gun fanatics defend the rights of the mentally ill to own guns but I guess we have crossed over into full blows CRAZYLAND and that is where you want to plant your flag.

No...there's no current diagnosis of such. They are discriminated against because they choose or have designated someone to do their finances. That's the criteria they used for this piece of junk legislation...that doesnt make it a legitimate criteria.

And again...if *you believe* they are not 'of sound mind' to do that, then it's incredibly dishonest of you to agree they are safe to drive on our roads.

 

[Spartacus FPV]

Re: LIVE COVERAGE: Active shooter in custody at Santa Fe HS

Please stop right there. Put on your brakes. Stop it.

The reason is that the person is not of sound mind.

Said the same guy who calls the President a Madman, you would apply your baseless standard to as many as possible to disarm your countrymen. We see you, no one is fooled.

 

[haymarket]

Re: LIVE COVERAGE: Active shooter in custody at Santa Fe HS

No...there's no current diagnosis of such. They are discriminated against because they choose or have designated someone to do their finances. That's the criteria they used for this piece of junk legislation...that doesnt make it a legitimate criteria.

And again...if *you believe* they are not 'of sound mind' to do that, then it's incredibly dishonest of you to agree they are safe to drive on our roads.

How did these people get classified by Social Security as mentally ill in the first place?

 

[haymarket]

Re: LIVE COVERAGE: Active shooter in custody at Santa Fe HS

Said the same guy who calls the President a Madman, you would apply your baseless standard to as many as possible to disarm your countrymen. We see you, no one is fooled.

Trump is a mandman... he is seriously mentally ill. The book THE DANGEROUS CASE OF DONALD TRUMP features 27 mental health professionals who present that case very clearly.

 

[Lursa]

Re: LIVE COVERAGE: Active shooter in custody at Santa Fe HS

How did these people get classified by Social Security as mentally ill in the first place?

Well for ex. veterans were diagnosed with PTSD in many cases decades before.

If they've not gone off on shooting binges in all that time, are no longer under a Dr's care for that...why would they be discriminated against when they collect SS?

Are you saying all veterans that have had PTSD diagnoses are not of sound mind?

(And btw, that's not a prohibition from them legally owning firearms either)

 

[apdst]

Re: LIVE COVERAGE: Active shooter in custody at Santa Fe HS

If you can't follow a conversation, don't try to troll up a thread.

Lursa and I were discussing, and she knew what I meant. You didn't, because you didn't follow the conversation. That's your issue, not anyone else's.

If you make a comment, expect a response.

 

[Plus Ultra]

Re: LIVE COVERAGE: Active shooter in custody at Santa Fe HS

There appeared to be warning signs about Pagourtzis, including: an interest in animal torture, a trench coat with USSR and Nazi medals on it, and a t-shirt that said”Born to Kill.” https://lawandcrime.com/school-shoo...-suspect-identified-warning-signs-were-there/

The article says his interest in animal torture was evident from social media postings, also that he posted a picture of the "Born to Kill" t-shirt, so these might not have been known to teachers at the school, but it also said one student remarked about the trench-coat, that the guy wore it all the time (despite high temperatures) that this was his usual appearance. One would expect his teachers may have noticed that, maybe someone could have asked what was that about? Teachers could have asked him about the Nazi medals, whether he was a sympathizer, expressed concern over this to his parents.

 

[fishnthec]

Re: LIVE COVERAGE: Active shooter in custody at Santa Fe HS

Can you explain any of that psychobabble? It makes no sense. Laws are supposed to have a purpose, yes. And laws can be changed or 'restricted.' No idea what you're trying to say.

But you're keeping the drama high, for sure.

You heard me- Laws are important too!

You said guns, can't be restricted? Duh? Where do you get that kind of psychobabble? Huh

Wait! You weren't referring to the real psychobabble in the 2nd amendment that state's the people's right's to own guns will not be "infringed" were you?

There is the psychobabble right there! The 2nd amendment is psychobabble for you psychos out there that think the Constitution prevents us from establishing laws to control firearms on any level.

Hilarious! Keep the humor coming- OK?

We already control the sale of firearms in this country! And now, we obviously need additional controls to keep you idiots from killing each other!

 

[Atomic Kid]

Re: LIVE COVERAGE: Active shooter in custody at Santa Fe HS

Atomic Kid, just stop. Most of that is wrong. I actually used to shoot both those weapons as did MANY other GI's here who will tell you. The thing about harder to hold is total bull****. No truth to it whatsoever. Obviously you went online and looked up crap from a couple of message boards.

Some DID go through the glass, they however could not shatter it. Some were stuck in the glass and some went all the way through. He also had low quality ammunition where the bullets were falling out of the casing. Combine this with a low quality rifle and this means that a lot of them had improper pressure when firing.

Just stop embarrassing yourself man. I was in the Army for 12 years and a cop. Been around these weapons all my life. All you are doing is spouting some other person's opinion from an obvious online search and comming to really bad and dangerous conclusions.

Hey just because I'm here advocating for better gun control laws and regulations doesn't mean that I'm anti-gun. Matter of fact I like guns a lot and have owned more than a few at one time or another and have fired quite a few including the mini 14. I have subscribed to gun magazines and have multiple email subscriptions and YouTube gun channels I subscribe to as well. So I have had an active interest in them for a long time. I don't own any now but I'm considering getting one now because a serious injury has made it difficult for me to now be able to physically defend myself as ably as I could before. It's a decision I'm still kicking around with the merits of because I never carried or intended to use any of the guns I owned before for personal defense. Just sport and entertainment mostly.


I don't know if any rounds actually succeeded in fully penetrating the window as I haven't seen that anywhere. But if he was using cheap or sub par ammo as you say it's fortunate then that he did as I think good military grade ammo probably could have damaged the window to where it could have been kicked or knocked the rest of the way out. And the rifle he used was manufactured by Smith & Wesson and if you know anything about Smith & Wesson it is that they don't make low quality stuff.

I don't mean any disrespect for your service to our country but being in the military and a former cop is not the end all and be all of any argument about guns or anything else for that matter. That doesn't make you automatically smarter than anyone else. I have known quite a few people who are former military and a healthy number of them I can honestly say weren't any smarter when they come out than before they went in. Plus you have my BS detection meter creeping up into the danger zone because it would seem to me that anyone who claims to have as much experience as you have claimed would have been able to easily point out all basic differences between a Mini 14 and a AR 15 platforms. And there is a good reason why many states ban pistol grips on on rifles because they clearly make manipulation of the weapon easier. Just simple logic and commonsense should be able to tell you that.

 

[justabubba]

Re: LIVE COVERAGE: Active shooter in custody at Santa Fe HS

I Agree, 100 %. I have have said the same thing many times. We need to impliment good security in our schools AND start dealing with the WHY these sorts of tragic acts happen. It would seem like simple Common Sense, that is if the actual goal is the safety of our current and future school children.

santa fe high school was already a hardened school
it had previously experienced a mock live shooter incident
two armed security guards are detailed to the campus throughout the school day
and the first responders responded within four minutes
share with us what that school should have done to become more secure

for extra credit let us know why these shootings happen. with your COMMON SENSE, this should be an easy assignment

 

[justabubba]

Re: LIVE COVERAGE: Active shooter in custody at Santa Fe HS

Yes. You know as well as anyone the military drafted people who had a 3rd grade school level. They gave them weapons and asked them to fight. Many of them could not even balance a checkbook. They could however knock a fly off a hill at 300 to 500 yards depending on the service.

So gonna have to disagree here. The ability to balance a checkbook has nothing at all to do with firearm ownership, or in this case the ability to use a firearm.

it has to do with mental competence
it is required in conducting one's financial affairs
and it is essential to safe handling and use of a fire arm

there is a reason why we are no longer drafting incompetents into our armed forces. you pointed it out

 

[vegas giants]

Re: LIVE COVERAGE: Active shooter in custody at Santa Fe HS

santa fe high school was already a hardened school
it had previously experienced a mock live shooter incident
two armed security guards are detailed to the campus throughout the school day
and the first responders responded within four minutes
share with us what that school should have done to become more secure

for extra credit let us know why these shootings happen. with your COMMON SENSE, this should be an easy assignment

But did they have a swat team stationed in the lunch room. If not they were just asking for it

 

[devildavid]

Re: LIVE COVERAGE: Active shooter in custody at Santa Fe HS

Who gets to decide who those people are?

The same people who decide on all our laws as we have done throughout our entire history. You can help decide if you want to, as well as everyone who posts here. Where do you think laws come from?

 

[Black Dog]

Re: LIVE COVERAGE: Active shooter in custody at Santa Fe HS

it has to do with mental competence
it is required in conducting one's financial affairs
and it is essential to safe handling and use of a fire arm

there is a reason why we are no longer drafting incompetents into our armed forces. you pointed it out

We stopped drafting because it was no longer necessary. The American people had had enough of Vietnam.

Mental competence? What is mental competence when it comes to financial affairs? Are you saying if someone has say a bankruptcy on their recorde they should not be allowed to purchase or own a firearm? Or how about a car repossession? Bad credit score?

I am going to have to disagree with you here.