Libertarians and Liberals need to Unite

[MrWonka]

The ENTIRE POINT of Libertarianism is LESS GOVERNMENT, especially LESS FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.


The is the EXACT OPPOSITE of liberals.

You don't seem to know anything about liberals.

 

[TheRepublican]

Socialism sucks the greatest president of all time and no he beats Brack H. Obama. Warned us. People obviously don’t like history? And I want to know why

 

[Skeptic Bob]

Legal pot would be one.

Most libertarians also believe in a woman’s right to choose. Most libertarians also oppose the increased militarization of the police.

Libertarians also oppose crony capitalism and the excessive use of the military which, despite their rhetoric, both Republicans AND Democrats support.

 

[MrWonka]

The best description of libertarians came from one of the South Park guys.

something

" I F$$$g hate Republicans, but I really REALLY f$$$g hate Democrats"

And he was just ****ing with you when he said that.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/02/25/matt-stone-trey-parker-ar_n_475744.html

said Matt, who in 2005 announced “I hate conservatives, but I really ****ing hate liberals.” When I asked him about the quote, Trey responded, “It’s all based on saying the shocking thing. We used to have a great time going to Hollywood parties and saying ‘I think George Bush is doing a great job.’ We’d clear out the room. I used to love it.“

They have certainly mocked conservative groups and people on their show, but they tend to skewer liberals more often. Why? “Ripping on Republicans is not that fun for us only because everyone else does it,” Matt explained. “It’s so much more fun for us to rip on liberals only because nobody else does it, and not because we think liberals are worse than Republicans but, just because...”

 

[MrWonka]

Libertarians also oppose crony capitalism and the excessive use of the military which, despite their rhetoric, both Republicans AND Democrats support.

Bull**** nonsense. Bill Clinton's use of the military was relatively minimal. Obama was handed two wars that he had no choice, but to deal with. The only military engagement he initiated was in Libya and that was only air strikes coordinated with our allies.

 

[MrWonka]

Well the Dems would have to put up a mighty fine candidate who espoused at least some of my ideals in order to get my vote. Otherwise, I'm more likely to just vote for the Donald Trump

If you're not going to vote for a Democrat please just go ahead and vote for Trump. That's what you're actually doing.

 

[Jack Fabulous]

When it comes to economics contrary to what many Libertarians seem to want to say even they are not mentally unstable enough to think that we can completely eliminate government regulation. They say they want a small simple government. So do most liberals. It's more of a matter degree than a black and white dichotomy.

The statement in bold just doesn't pass muster.

"Small simple government" doesn't include universal healthcare, ever increasing environmental control, ever expanding social programs, free college tuition, and a myriad of other buffet items that all require a big bloated government to maintain.

Your words say you want a small simple government but the policies that you advocate demand the exact opposite.

 

[Ikari]

Most libertarians also believe in a woman’s right to choose. Most libertarians also oppose the increased militarization of the police.

Libertarians also oppose crony capitalism and the excessive use of the military which, despite their rhetoric, both Republicans AND Democrats support.

Quite so. The military industrial complex is well supported by both, both have done a great job at supporting and proliferating our infinity war. I think there are significant problems on both ends. As such, I tend to vote libertarian less the main party can put up a really good candidate.

I also think that Gary Johnson would have been a far better President than either Trump or Hillary.

 

[Ikari]

If you're not going to vote for a Democrat please just go ahead and vote for Trump. That's what you're actually doing.

Mmmmm....no, that's not actually what I'm doing. What I'm actually doing is voting for the candidate I believe to be best for the job. But I understand that hyperpartisan binaries cannot understand the difference.

 

[Skeptic Bob]

Bull**** nonsense. Bill Clinton's use of the military was relatively minimal. Obama was handed two wars that he had no choice, but to deal with. The only military engagement he initiated was in Libya and that was only air strikes coordinated with our allies.

Clinton and Obama ONLY did air strikes. That’s your defense? Obama also massively increased the use of signature strikes. Sorry, but I witnessed first hand how those are carried out and I can’t support it.

I worked for the Defense Intelligence Agency for nearly 20 years, to include the entirety of the Obama administration and I can’t unknow what I know. And I voted for Obama the FIRST time.

 

[MrWonka]

Colorblind society is the only ethical way.

So Racism just doesn't exist anymore huh?

Also, stop the constant denial that China's economic policies need to be dealt with... As a Libertarian Ideal, I want free trade

I'm not exactly sure who you're referring to exactly. It was liberals who were focused on the issues with China. It was Republicans that by and large ignored them.

I think you have it wrong, the Democratic party isn't slipping to extremism because of Trump.... it is because the Democrat party slipped into extremism we HAVE Trump.

Do you just not know what the word extremism means?

And Bernie Sanders government spending policies are absolutely ridiculous and completely fiscally irresponsible.... regardless of whether they are meant with good intent.

Well, you're wrong on that too, but you're either going to learn to like me, or you're going to get Bernie. People like me are the only hope you have to save any semblance of capitalism in the short term.

 

[MrWonka]

Clinton and Obama ONLY did air strikes. That’s your defense? Obama also massively increased the use of signature strikes. Sorry, but I witnessed first hand how those are carried out and I can’t support it.

I worked for the Defense Intelligence Agency for nearly 20 years, to include the entirety of the Obama administration and I can’t unknow what I know. And I voted for Obama the FIRST time.

Then you should know that Terrorists do in fact exist, and you're not just going to ask them nicely to stop killing us.

 

[MrWonka]

Mmmmm....no, that's not actually what I'm doing. What I'm actually doing is voting for the candidate I believe to be best for the job.

I'm sure that's what everyone who didn't vote for Hindenburg told themselves too. Sooner or later you're going join reality. I hope for your own sake it's sooner rather than later.

 

[MrWonka]

"Small simple government" doesn't include universal healthcare, ever-increasing environmental control, ever-expanding social programs, free college tuition, and a myriad of other buffet items that all require a big bloated government to maintain.

Neither do massive increases in military spending. The continued war on drugs. Government control over a woman's reproductive rights. Government control over your right to marry, which bathroom you can use.

When Gary Johnson tried to move away from prison sentences for drug offenders he knew he couldn't just leave a void. He created a program to shift money towards treatment that had great success. Even Libertarians aren't stupid enough to think you can eliminate the government. There are ways to solve most of these problems liberals want solved without massive government, but you're delusional if you think you're ever getting to a situation where there's just no government.

 

[Skeptic Bob]

Then you should know that Terrorists do in fact exist, and you're not just going to ask them nicely to stop killing us.

And I know that killing a bunch of innocent families in the process doesn’t help the cause. And I can’t say what I want to say about the Libya intervention. There were only two US military officers in the entire country when the **** hit the fan, and I was one of them. Even if I could say what I wanted it would be anecdotal and you would have no reason to believe me. But my mind will never change on that. I am admittedly VERY bitter about how the administration handled that.

 

[Jack Fabulous]

Neither do massive increases in military spending. The continued war on drugs. Government control over a woman's reproductive rights. Government control over your right to marry, which bathroom you can use.

Pardon me, but the matter at hand had nothing to do with anything you just said. You claimed: "They(Libertarians) say they want a small simple government. So do most liberals."

What you posted above is called a "deflection". Are you prepared to actually refute my post or is deflection the best you've got?

 

[Bootz]

This whole Trump Nationalism thing is becoming very concerning to me. Trump referring to himself as a Nationalist is an attempt to normalize extremism. It's an attempt to get more normal people that would otherwise reject Nazis and full-blown White Nationalism to start using the same verbiage to describe themselves that the more extremists use. Once the common nomenclature is in place it becomes easier and easier for the extremists to make moderate more receptive to their ideas. While many Trump supporters may sadly have a lot in common with Nazis they recall what Nazis did and recognize them as evil. They, therefore, reject the notion that they have similar beliefs regardless of what the evidence says. By slowly getting Nazi terminology normalized they allow Nazis to more easily intermix and recruit those who would otherwise not be amenable to it.

This got me starting to think more about some on the left who have started to embrace the idea of Democratic Socialism. While I may agree with Bernie on many things, I would never classify myself as a socialist. I'm a firm believer in regulatory Capitalism or what I call Nash Capitalism. It has always bothered me that almost none of Bernie's actual policies really truly are what would normally be considered socialist yet for whatever reason he insists upon calling himself one. Thinking about Trump it occurs to me that it's at least a possibility that Bernie is trying to do something very similar to Trump. Trying to mainstream the terminology in order to make a transition to real socialism more plausible down the road. By getting more moderate liberals to start using words like Socialist to describe themselves that makes it easier for true socialists to intermix and recruit by making them seem like kindred spirits.

So long as Trump is the standard bearer for Capitalism, Capitalism is doomed. Sooner or later the blowback from Trump's election is going to send people fleeing towards Democrats. If Bernie Sanders wins the Democratic Nomination in 2020 I along with all moderate liberals and independents will have no choice but to support him in the general election given the dark and disgusting turn of the Republican party. Moderate Republicans have lost their party. The Republican party now belongs to Donald Trump, and if he manages to win again in 2020 any hope of ever getting it back is gone. The only way real conservatives can ever get back any semblance of control over the Republican party again is if he is decimated in 2020. He must be forcefully repudiated beyond any ability to make bull**** excuses for his failure.

In the meantime so long as Trump controls the Republican party we cannot afford to let the Democratic Party slip towards extremism too. I'm very concerned that the only way that happens is if the moderate conservatives and libertarians who understand what Trump represents and the danger he posses join us and keep things centered. Running a third party flyer like Kasich in the General isn't good enough. You may torpedo Trump, but you risk handing the reigns of the country over to another extremist on the left. Registering Democrat and voting in our primary to help secure a more centrist Liberal is really the only option. Obviously, it's going to be a Democrat and it will no doubt be a left-leaning candidate, but if you don't want to choose between Bernie and Trump the time to start thinking about how to avoid that is now.

Nationalists is a relative term to Globalists and nothing more. The Idea of Trump as a racist or a bigot is a myth. It serves the far left methodology of divide and conquer. You may remember when the terms were nationalists versus internationalists. Nationalists like Robert Taft were anti war anti league of nations and anti UN. Internationalists like Roosevelt and Wilson were pro war, pro league of nations and pro UN. Internationalists today are called globalists, they prefer a global socialism under the UN. Nationalists prefer separate cultures and national identities.


you are a part of the non thinking flock.

 

[Ikari]

I'm sure that's what everyone who didn't vote for Hindenburg told themselves too. Sooner or later you're going join reality. I hope for your own sake it's sooner rather than later.

I know, I know....you can't stand people having their own opinion and exercising their vote according to their personal philosophy and integrity. I get it. You've spewed your childish opinion all over DP.

But end of the day, I have the duty to exercise my vote, which represents my personal bit of sovereignty that I invest into the government and Republic, in a manner to best support and promote the candidate I feel can best perform the job and who best echos my own political ideology. It's how we keep a Republic.

Being trapped in some artificial hyperpartisan-binaryism is how we end up stuck with the **** show the Republocrats have made of things.

I will vote for the Democrats if the Democrats put up a candidate deserving of my vote.

 

[celticwar17]

So Racism just doesn't exist anymore huh?

No of course not....

But we should all make our best effort to take the concept of race out of our society.

 

[MrPeanut]

There is a Libertarian Left. "Live free or die."

It's in the lean select box.

I didn't say there wasn't, but if the intention of the thread was to suggest that liberals unite with all 20 of the left libertarians in the United States then I still think it's a pointless idea.

 

[MrPeanut]

Libertarians and Liberals agree on most social policies. End the war on drugs. Support for gay marriage. Pro-choice. Immigration. Trade. War. Police Brutality.

When it comes to economics contrary to what many Libertarians seem to want to say even they are not mentally unstable enough to think that we can completely eliminate government regulation. They say they want a small simple government. So do most liberals. It's more of a matter degree than a black and white dichotomy.

Gary Johnson as governor of Mexico ran the government far more liberally than many Libertarians would like to admit. New Mexico is a state that has voted Democrat pretty consistently of late.

I think a lot of libertarians overestimate your allegiances with the Right.

Do you think the risk of alienating progressives is worth the gain of support from some amount of libertarians?