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Let's Talk about Christopher Columbus

joG said:
Might I mention that there would have been an America. It would have been an unknown unknown, however.
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Fair enough. My language may have been imprecise but I think my meaning was clear. No America in the sense of the "Wind from America."
 
Jack Hays said:
I absolutely believe that. Certainly someone, sometime, would have made the voyage, but they didn't and he did.
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There's a good case for St Brendan in the 6th century, but who'd believe an Irish monk in a cowhide boat? Till Tim Severin replicated the voyage from clues in the story.

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calamity said:
Never has a man been so lost and so clueless as to think he was half-a-world away from his landing spot, and yet still be considered a hero for almost 600 years. Now, that is some mythical **** right there.
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actually yes you proved it right here.
 
mike2810 said:
Science shows that Native Americans are not indigenous to what is now the USA.

"Prevailing ideas point to all Native Americans descending from ancient Siberians who moved across the*Beringia land bridge*between Asia and North America between 26,000 and 18,000 years ago. As time wore on, the thinking goes, these people spread southward and gave rise to the Native American populations encountered by European settlers centuries ago."
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/scie...-question-who-were-first-americans-180951469/

Makes me wonder how many who believe Columbus doesn't deserve a holiday, took the paid holiday anyway. Call in Native American day or indigenous people day if it makes you feel better.
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Everybody came from Africa. We know that.
 
Manc Skipper said:
There's a good case for St Brendan in the 6th century, but who'd believe an Irish monk in a cowhide boat? Till Tim Severin replicated the voyage from clues in the story.

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It may well be true. Farley Mowatt made a separate but similar argument for Celtic voyagers in The Farfarers. What those and the Viking voyages have in common is that they were without consequence. Columbus is not important for his voyages per se, but for what they made possible.
 
CletusWilbury said:
I was taught about Columbus in the late '50s when colonialism was championed.
I have read much about colonialism since, but not Zinn.
I'm now an "anti-colonialist", like Obama. (He was accused of that, anyway. I suspect his view is more nuanced than mine)
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Like Obama?

What did you learn about colonialism, if in fact not learning from history means repeating it?

I ask because there is some truth to that old saying, "the more things change the more they remain the same."

I'm half German-American. But I bet plenty of blacks, Amerindians, Arabs, and you name the dark skinned group don't think Germany ought invade the USA or any Western European country but sure as hell support Arab Saudi Arabia aligning itself with the white West--and Obama--to overthrow Assad and put the Saudi's Sunni "tribe" in power in Syria. Fortunately for Syria and Assad and the Alewite (Shiite branch) Muslim "tribe" they had strong white power that is at present a rival to the white Western nations.

Black Africa to the Amerindian America to Arabia have long needed strong white power allies to keep their damned lands.

The white West has stopped fighting one another (although they are antagonistic to white Eastern Russia) but sure as hell not the dark skinned Muslim Arab world. And in fighting one another they seek powerful white partners to back them. You think these white powers only tag along because they are nice people? :lol:





Wasn't there a captured Wikileak email between Hillary Clinton and the French about taking out Gaddafi to take control over Libya's gold and because Gaddafi planned to start trading oil in something other than US dollars?

Oh... but wait... Gaddafi was a "strongman" and therefore not a "good guy." What the hell were Amerindian leaders, puppies? That's what they guy was that killed the non-violent French ambassadors when he agreed to help the white American colonist still subjects of the British Crown? He was a puppy? There was a greater gap between his primitive tribe and the civilizations of the white man than there was between Gaddafi's Libya and the white West of today. Libya was a civilization with a leader that was closer to Alexander Hamilton than any primitive Amerindian leader of North America was. And Hillary and Obama had him murdered.

And where the hell are the Amerindian nations today, with their gleaming meccas like Qatar? The Muslims have for centuries had great civilizations rivaling the white West. Neither the Amerindians or black Africans ever have. Well... for a period the Amerindians did with the Aztecs and Incas but the Europeans conquered them. Again, with Amerindian help.




So, other than symbolic masturbation, how is trashing the memory or name of Christopher Columbus going to do anything of substance today? Personally, I think having given Amerindians monopolies on casinos some cities has done more real help. I mean... white Americans with their "democracy" pretty much eradicated the Amerindians from Milwaukee (an Amerindian name ironically). I doubt they're returning like Jews to the Holy Land. But at least they got a casino where they can draw money from the white man--and Columbus--for their sins of the past.


 
AlbqOwl said:
Columbus is not remembered because he was a hero. He was as flawed and sometimes possessed of feet of clay as any of us can be and as those also were in his time and culture.

He is remembered because he represents those who dared to take magnificent risks to learn, to explore, to venture where no one has gone before. There is good and bad in pretty much all things, but if we require those of history to be perfect in all ways before they can represent their history, then we will expunge all figures from all history.

Martin Luther King who promoted a great cause despite being a flawed person. For example he preached homosexuality as 'being a problem' and opposed gay marriage. In this day and age he would have been crucified for that.

All famous Indian chiefs who represent their people even though all ordered and/or participated in some really bad things.

Civil War leaders such as Robert E. Lee who freed the slaves he inherited, long before many in the north did, and opposed slavery, but he supported the right of the South to be in charge of its own destiny in the same way as our Founders, all flawed individuals, but who succeeded in wresting America from an oppressive monarchy and state religion and gave us a great nation that could determine its own destiny.

Jesus is quoted as saying: "He who is without sin, cast the first stone." None of us are without sin. And to not allow sinners to be recognized for their contribution to our advancement and progress means that nobody can be honored or recognized for anything.
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Columbus is falsely remembered for discovering America and, as we saw with a few comments above, proving the earth is round. Both claims to fame are myths.
 
PIPEWRENCH said:
Columbus got the ball rolling. It would have happened eventually. He may not of discovered North America but he did discover the new world. While other people may have got here first Columbus put us on the map so to say. Making an Atlantic crossing in those days was a heroic event. Especially considering no one knew for sure how far or if it was even possible. There was always the possibility of hitting an area of the ocean where the winds stopped blowing. A death sentence in those days.
Nobody knew where they were back then.
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Lots of people don't know where they are right now.
 
shrubnose said:
Every human being has ancestors from Africa.That's where the human race started.

If you have evidence to the contrary you should post it.
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The story is getting more complicated.

Three new discoveries in a month rock our African origins - Medium

https://medium.com/.../the-story-of-modern-human-origins-just-got-more-complicate...


Jun 7, 2017 - Four years ago, the story of modern human origins seemed fairly simple. ... Archaic people in Africa — all the humans who were not part of that ...

First Human Ancestor Came from Europe Not Africa, 7.2 Million-year ...

www.newsweek.com/first-hominin-europe-east-africa-human-evolution-613494


May 22, 2017 - The first hominin species, a line that eventually leads to humans, may ... That's not to say East Africa or the continent isn't the origin point, but I ...







 
shrubnose said:
Every human being has ancestors from Africa.That's where the human race started.

If you have evidence to the contrary you should post it.
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That's political correctness hijacking historical evidence. Academe jumped all over that so they could claim that everyone is African. There are 50-100-200 thousand year gaps that have yet to be filled in.

The oldest tree fossil was discovered in New York. Did every tree in the world originate in New York? Probably not.
 
shrubnose said:
If you have any proof that they were not in North America let's see it.
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:lol: No, I have no proof. You seem to be emotionally invested in the Vikings. I regard them as a barbarian people. They supposedly even engaged in cannibalism. I recently finished a short book on the Viking and Saxons encounters. According to the author while it is not certain there supposedly is some evidence the Vikings engaged in cannibalism. But I do like how many of you think Columbus was the only hard man, only ruthless guy of times of exploration, and what everyone else including the Vikings were cute little puppies.

If the Vikings did land in what is now Canada--and I really don't care if they did or didn't because I'm indifferent to it either way--judging by how they murdered, slaughtered other Europeans I some how doubt they arrived in Canada like gentle doves offering peace and harmony.

The Vikings took slaves too and psychologically abused them--according to that author I read--giving them names like "dumpy" and "fatty" for the women.

You do accept the fact that the Native Americans arrived in the Americas thousands of years before he did,eh?
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I acknowledged that earlier.

I'm more interested in learning from the past, to apply its lessons to today, than stage acting like I'm heroic for how I protest now for what happened centuries ago. The Amerindians don't own the USA like Jews own the former land of Palestine. This is what I think you all can't get through your heads. The past in a certain respect is still here.

You want to right the wrongs of what Columbus brought? Give the city of Chicago and New York City to the Amerindians as their own city-state countries. Why? Because land, capital, and labor are resources. Chicago and New York City given to Amerindians as city-state countries would constitute 2 of the 3: land and capital (capital = buildings, factories, machinery, tools, tech etc.)

Behold... a city-state run by Arab Muslims. Where is the Amerindian equivalent? There is none. So, the past remains present in some sense. Amerindians need powerful whites just as they did when they encountered Columbus and the Founding Fathers of the USA or the Spanish or the French or the Dutch. Does Assad and his wife look like they're running round half naked like the Amerindians in the Amazon or something? They both are better educated and more refined than you and I. But they need white people too (Russia in this case).






Western media focus on tragedies that suit their agenda – Assad’s wife Asma in rare interview
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Jack Hays said:
The story is getting more complicated.
Click to expand...

Three new discoveries in a month rock our African origins - Medium

https://medium.com/.../the-story-of-modern-human-origins-just-got-more-complicate...


Jun 7, 2017 - Four years ago, the story of modern human origins seemed fairly simple. ... Archaic people in Africa — all the humans who were not part of that ...

First Human Ancestor Came from Europe Not Africa, 7.2 Million-year ...

www.newsweek.com/first-hominin-europe-east-africa-human-evolution-613494


May 22, 2017 - The first hominin species, a line that eventually leads to humans, may ... That's not to say East Africa or the continent isn't the origin point, but I ...
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Believe whatever you want to believe.It will have no effect on reality.
 
shrubnose said:
Believe whatever you want to believe.It will have no effect on reality.
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I don't "believe" anything. I just await further developments in the ongoing inquiry into human origins. My point was that uncertainty rules.
 
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