Let's Talk about Christopher Columbus

[calamity]

Cabot did not sail until after Columbus returned. Without Columbus there's no guarantee there would have been any money for Cabot. The life of Columbus was perhaps the most consequential between Mohammed and the present day.

Cabot was looking for funding to seek out a mythical island in the Atlantic since 1480. Columbus was looking for a shortcut to India. Cabot was actually closer to the truth. :lol:

 

[Dragonfly]

 

[CletusWilbury]

Co.umbus is a perfect example of how US History is generally distorted on almost every issue. He was a scumbag, no question about it. So why was he honored in our History/SocialStudies classes for so long? How many other examples of distorted history are there? S.O.P.. Standard Operating Procedure. I would recommend the History of the US, by Howard Zinn. Much closer to the truth.
/

I was taught about Columbus in the late '50s when colonialism was championed.
I have read much about colonialism since, but not Zinn.
I'm now an "anti-colonialist", like Obama. (He was accused of that, anyway. I suspect his view is more nuanced than mine)

 

[Perotista]

The first explorer to actually find the coast of North America, which I would say contributed far more to the creation of the USA was John Cabot. He paved the way for British North America. He is well known in Canada.

Juan Ponce de Leon is usually credited as the first European to set foot on North America, Florida. Here's a short synopsis of the discovery of North America which includes Cabot.

The First Europeans < Early America < History 1994 < American History From Revolution To Reconstruction and beyond

As far as peopling the Americas, I would lean toward the Polynesians as being the first. I think at sometime in the future due to new evidence being found that they pre-date the Siberia-Alaska land bridge.

 

[CletusWilbury]

Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
A consequence of Columbus was the United States. Through the US the ideas of John Locke and the Enlightenment were disseminated and legitimized, becoming the "Wind from America" that powerfully influenced the French Revolution and all political thought thereafter.

That is hilarious.

Following this back, why do you think it is hilarious?

Locke certainly influenced the American revolutionaries and the writing of the American declaration of independence.

and America definitely influenced the French Revolution
The "Alien Origins" of the French Revolution: American, Scottish, Genevan, and Dutch Influences

 

[Lovebug]

Never has a man been so lost and so clueless as to think he was half-a-world away from his landing spot, and yet still be considered a hero for almost 600 years. Now, that is some mythical **** right there.

and yet many of us still get lost, even with GPS. If they only knew back in the day what we know now. So let me dare you to replicate the journey without modern equipment.

 

[Jack Hays]

You too. Read up

I have read Zinn, whose work seems to be the full extent of your library.

 

[Jack Hays]

Cabot was looking for funding to seek out a mythical island in the Atlantic since 1480. Columbus was looking for a shortcut to India. Cabot was actually closer to the truth. :lol:

Without Columbus (Columbus's return, specifically) Cabot probably would never have been funded. Thus, Cabot owed his own voyage to Columbus.

 

[PIPEWRENCH]

Columbus got the ball rolling. It would have happened eventually. He may not of discovered North America but he did discover the new world. While other people may have got here first Columbus put us on the map so to say. Making an Atlantic crossing in those days was a heroic event. Especially considering no one knew for sure how far or if it was even possible. There was always the possibility of hitting an area of the ocean where the winds stopped blowing. A death sentence in those days. Nobody knew where they were back then.

 

[vegas giants]

Following this back, why do you think it is hilarious?

Locke certainly influenced the American revolutionaries and the writing of the American declaration of independence.

and America definitely influenced the French Revolution
The "Alien Origins" of the French Revolution: American, Scottish, Genevan, and Dutch Influences

Dude you can not trace every American achievement to Columbus. It is hilarious

 

[Jack Hays]

Dude you can not trace every American achievement to Columbus. It is hilarious

No Columbus, no America. Would the "discovery" have eventually happened anyway? Of course. But not in the same way and not, perhaps, with the same ultimate outcome in terms of the creation of the US.

The achievement of Columbus made possible the achievements of the US.

 

[joG]

Reading it again, I realize I butchered what I wanted to say. My bad.

A wanting butcher of minced words.
But take heart! I understood, what you thought you were saying.

 

[joG]

No Columbus, no America. Would the "discovery" have eventually happened anyway? Of course. But not in the same way and not, perhaps, with the same ultimate outcome in terms of the creation of the US.

The achievement of Columbus made possible the achievements of the US.

Might I mention that there would have been an America. It would have been an unknown unknown, however.

 

[faithful_servant]

I have no problem with people saying Columbus was no slouch, and that he knew how to sail a ship or three. But the myth of Columbus is a far cry from the real Columbus.

As is the revisionist crap that is now getting spewed by people like yourself. You're trying to frame the actions of man born 600+ years ago in modern terms. It's using 20./20 hindsight to denigrate the actions of a courageous and by the standards of the time, pretty upstanding individual. Compare Columbus' actions to those of the Conquistadors and you'll see a huge difference in their approach. Yes, by OUR standards, some of actions aren't understandable or acceptable, but he wasn't operating according to our standards, he was operating according to the standards of that time and by those standards, Columbus did pretty well.

 

[faithful_servant]

The Caribbean and Bahamas are part of north america

Isn't basic geography just peachy...????
:mrgreen:

 

[faithful_servant]

I've never really read a lot (only a little) about the guy. It would not surprise me if you are correct. But you know... the "noble savage" theme non-Amerindians run with is a myths too. At least about a large portion of the various Amerindian nations.

No kidding. Had we arrived about 100 years earlier, we would have found an over-populated, over-farmed eastern America being rapidly deforested. Even in the West, the natives used some horrific tactics, such as running hundreds of bison off of cliffs to feed bands of a 100 or so people. The idea of them using every piece of every animal they killed is HUGE myth. They may have had a use for most of the animal, but if they didn't need that particular bit, it got left on the ground. The natives used to burn off huge areas to keep them clear of brush to make hunting easier on both the east and west coasts (they saw less of the results due to the plague that wiped so much of the eastern natives). Slavery was common, as was war, which included killing their enemies (men, women and children) and not just "counting coup". But again, we are judging them by OUR standards and not their's...

 

[faithful_servant]

lol...yeah. There is no room in that myth for European people dying by age 35, being mange-riddled, illiterates who burned heretics at the stake, basically a bunch of superstitious imbeciles who cut down all their forests and poisoned all their water to the point where sailing off into the unknown horizon actually sounded better than staying put.

Had they arrived prior to the plague which killed an estimated 90% of the native population, they would have landed in a place where deforestation and over-population were rampant.

 

[shrubnose]

Christopher Columbus discovered America a long time after the native Americans and Vikings found it.

 

[faithful_servant]

Oh, come on. Do you really believe that?

Someone would have found the Bahamas before 1500. It's not like Columbus was the only sailor floating around in the Atlantic.

No, but he was the one who made the presence of an accessible new land known to the Europeans. Yes, there were the Vikings, but that was dismissed by most Europeans as bragging and not facts. Columbus was the guy who opened their eyes to the fact that there was a whole new world out there. Maybe he never really understood fully what he had done, but his actions were what opened the door to the New World. I know that you have to follow the standard SJW line of thought and denigrate Colombus at every turn, but at least have the small level of integrity to accept that he was the first one to really show the Europeans that you could truly sail west, find land and return.

 

[faithful_servant]

Ever hear of the Vikings?

But the Europeans who heard that story considered it just that - a story. Vikings were notorious braggers and any story they told was taken with a grain of salt.

 

[faithful_servant]

Sounds like someone else we all know and love.. that delusional SOB who thinks millions of illegals robbed him of the popular vote.

I'm shocked, it took until almost post #50 for a TDS post to show up in a thread that has NOTHING to do with the President. You're slipping. I honestly thought that I'd see one by post #20 at the worst...

 

[faithful_servant]

Well a whole lot of great evil....hitler made the trains run on time

..and we have Godwin...

 

[Winston]

I'm shocked, it took until almost post #50 for a TDS post to show up in a thread that has NOTHING to do with the President. You're slipping. I honestly thought that I'd see one by post #20 at the worst...

Trump is a deranged lunatic who is deeply unpopular with the country.

 

[shrubnose]

He was an heroic figure in my view. I'm judging him based on the time period he was in. It took guts and leadership for him to set on the mission he did. And "dead reckoning" was a skill I do not have nor I doubt most people that recreationally sail today have. He was not a stupid man.

I don't think he has been canonized as a saint in the Catholic Church, so, he evidently is believed by sufficient number of people, nor by the evidence in his personal life, to have been a saint.

But as a sailor for his period, as a commander of men with no 9-11 to call or American military to fly into the air and parachute soldiers in to rescue him and his men, he had courage and ambition and so goes for the European knowledge of the world at the time he made them aware of other worlds (for which more Europeans came). I don't care to hear the talk about the Vikings because if so many Europeans had their knowledge of the Americas then Christopher Columbus would not have been needed.

Assuming the Vikings even were in the Americas.

If you have any proof that they were not in North America let's see it.

You do accept the fact that the Native Americans arrived in the Americas thousands of years before he did,eh?

 

[AlbqOwl]

Never has a man been so lost and so clueless as to think he was half-a-world away from his landing spot, and yet still be considered a hero for almost 600 years. Now, that is some mythical **** right there.

Columbus is not remembered because he was a hero. He was as flawed and sometimes possessed of feet of clay as any of us can be and as those also were in his time and culture.

He is remembered because he represents those who dared to take magnificent risks to learn, to explore, to venture where no one has gone before. There is good and bad in pretty much all things, but if we require those of history to be perfect in all ways before they can represent their history, then we will expunge all figures from all history.

Martin Luther King who promoted a great cause despite being a flawed person. For example he preached homosexuality as 'being a problem' and opposed gay marriage. In this day and age he would have been crucified for that.

All famous Indian chiefs who represent their people even though all ordered and/or participated in some really bad things.

Civil War leaders such as Robert E. Lee who freed the slaves he inherited, long before many in the north did, and opposed slavery, but he supported the right of the South to be in charge of its own destiny in the same way as our Founders, all flawed individuals, but who succeeded in wresting America from an oppressive monarchy and state religion and gave us a great nation that could determine its own destiny.

Jesus is quoted as saying: "He who is without sin, cast the first stone." None of us are without sin. And to not allow sinners to be recognized for their contribution to our advancement and progress means that nobody can be honored or recognized for anything.