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Let's Redistribute Some Wealth [W:131]

I dont understand this reply at all.

For the record, I do teach. Im aware that there is a spectrum of capabilities, and that a few really just can't do it. But thats not the majority, and never has been, in my experience.

I did not say "a majority"...I said a HUGE segment. 5% would be a HUGE segment to write off, US.

Whats best for everyone long term? Self sufficient contributing citizens, or a dependent mass constantly being told they are when they aren't?

Neither. What is best in a land of plenty...is for EVERYONE to have sufficient...and then let the ones who WANT TO CONTRIBUTE BY WORKING...do so. For the most part, that would keep the lazy, stupid, and incompetent out...which would greatly improve productivity.

Having the lazy, stupid, incompetent, and unwilling included in the workforce...greatly damages productivity.

You know that. You've probably seen it in your present workforce...people who would improve things by quitting.

When people try, some may fail. But thats better than never trying.

Again, I highly recommend this...


As a matter of policy, I do not view videos presented in forums. I've wasted lots and lots of time in the past doing so. If you want to tell me what you saw of value...fine
 
OK.


I do believe that you are incorrect in this assertion. This is a fundamental of the job market and doesn't come and go. It's constantly present.

If you think there are no highly skilled, very well qualified, enthusiastic workers in the marketplace who are not adequately compensated...you have that right.

We have to agree to disagree on that.



The soft bigotry of low expectations. People will surprise you if given 1/2 the chance to do so.

Mentally Disabled Man Opens Thriving Restaurant

Here is but one example. Look around, there are many, many more.
This is within the capabilities of everyone.

I prefer to think of it as as pragmatism...that occasionally has exceptions. In the big picture...there are people who will never be able to compete for reasonable paying jobs.

We disagree on that also.
 
I did not say "a majority"...I said a HUGE segment. 5% would be a HUGE segment to write off, US.



What is best in a land of plenty...is for EVERYONE to have sufficient...and then let the ones who WANT TO CONTRIBUTE BY WORKING...do so.

But it isn't a land of plenty for long when only a few are contributing, only those who "want" to. The drive to labor to take care of ones self is a very powerful motivator, and a requisite of a productive economy. This has been true throughout history, btw.

As for those who aren't capable, there's already a mechanism to weed them out of the workplace, unproductive workers get demoted, fired, etc. Why should a business fund them? Why should I as a taxpayer? And there is already an adequate safety net for them, in fact it reaches at least 1 in 5 Americans as is.
Forbes Welcome

Should I only teach the students in my classes who want to learn, and give the rest that dont show up an A to take care of them? What would the long term consequences be?

Its a bit too utopian for me-to assume that somehow, providing the money of those who contribute to those who dont, will somehow make the system better.
I just dont see any evidence of that-but if you can show examples, I will certainly consider them. Do you have some examples?

That was another of Friedman's videos from the Free to Choose series BTW, and it addressed the realities of people who are dependent on the govt, its a vicious cycle, and its not unique to the US, its the same story elsewhere.
 
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But it isn't a land of plenty for long when only a few are contributing, only those who "want" to.

One...there will not be "only a few" contributing.

IF you had food, clothing, shelter, medical care, educational opportunities, transportation, communications, and a reasonable amount of leisure amenities) furnished...wouldn't you continue to "contribute?"

I would.

Actually, I have all those things...and I still contribute. Most of the people I work with...are not working because they need to work to have those things...they work...because they want to work.

In any case, our country would be much more productive if the marginally efficient, lazy, and unwilling would stay out of the way.

IF you think it better to kill those people rather than simply provide them with their needs to keep them out of the way...

...that is something you have to deal with.

I say: Give EVERYONE the necessary food, clothing, shelter, medical care, educational opportunities, transportation, communications, and a reasonable amount of leisure amenities...and let only the most capable, most willing "contribute." Let "contributing" be an honor...an award for being able to a particular job better than other humans...and better than any machine that can be devised for the job.

I think you are dead wrong in supposing that it won't be a land of plenty in that setting. I think it will be a land of MUCH MORE plenty than we have now, with all the deadbeats continuing to drag on productivity.

And I think you are wrong in considering what I am saying as Utopian.

It is almost certainly the way things will eventually go.
 
One...there will not be "only a few" contributing.

IF you had food, clothing, shelter, medical care, educational opportunities, transportation, communications, and a reasonable amount of leisure amenities) furnished...wouldn't you continue to "contribute?"

I would.

Actually, I have all those things...and I still contribute. Most of the people I work with...are not working because they need to work to have those things...they work...because they want to work.

In any case, our country would be much more productive if the marginally efficient, lazy, and unwilling would stay out of the way.

IF you think it better to kill those people rather than simply provide them with their needs to keep them out of the way...

...that is something you have to deal with.

I say: Give EVERYONE the necessary food, clothing, shelter, medical care, educational opportunities, transportation, communications, and a reasonable amount of leisure amenities...and let only the most capable, most willing "contribute." Let "contributing" be an honor...an award for being able to a particular job better than other humans...and better than any machine that can be devised for the job.

I think you are dead wrong in supposing that it won't be a land of plenty in that setting. I think it will be a land of MUCH MORE plenty than we have now, with all the deadbeats continuing to drag on productivity.

And I think you are wrong in considering what I am saying as Utopian.

It is almost certainly the way things will eventually go.

Half of Americans dont pay federal income taxes, and statistically they also consume more in govt services-thats not a few.

Your idea would make things worth on both ends-those who contribute will have less incentive to work, and those getting increased handouts will also have less incentive to work.

Do the people you work with not need income? Are they just benevolent? If they are perhaps well off financially wasn't that a consequence of work?

Again, you propose that less people working (those who can't learn skills) will increase productivity. Can you give some real world examples of where thats worked? If not-how do you know it will work?
 
Half of Americans dont pay federal income taxes, and statistically they also consume more in govt services-thats not a few.

What does that have to do with anything I said?

Your idea would make things worth on both ends-those who contribute will have less incentive to work, and those getting increased handouts will also have less incentive to work.

Great!

That is what we should be doing...creating incentives NOT TO WORK. Instead we are on an Alice in Wonderland voyage to CREATE WORK...to CREATE JOBS...simply because some people think people ought to work.

Keep people out of the way. LEt machines do the work they can...and let only the most capable and willing do the work that has to be done by humans. There's plenty of it...and rewarding people who are capable and willing is a fine way to make a better, more productive society.

Do the people you work with not need income? Are they just benevolent? If they are perhaps well off financially wasn't that a consequence of work?

What I said is...they do not have to work.

I'll stick with that.

Again, you propose that less people working (those who can't learn skills) will increase productivity. Can you give some real world examples of where thats worked? If not-how do you know it will work?

What I have been saying is that people who are lazy, unmotivated, and inefficient...hurt productivity.

Okay...so here is a "real world" example of what I am talking about:

A friend of mine was a janitor at a YMCA. (I was at one time also, and I have witnessed this same story.)

He was very efficient…and was able to clean the building after closing in four to five hours. But he was paid for 8 hours…and had to stay at the facility until it opened in the morning.

After his four to five hours of work, the place was spotless…so he would take a sauna; shoot hoops; read; work out in the weight room; or just take a nap until opening.

About once a month, the local municipal judge would send his “community service” people over to “help.” These are the people the judge sentenced to community service for various minor violations.

Ten, twelve people would show up to "help" clean up. They were not happy about being there...they were not motivated to work diligently.

On the mornings after the "help" was in place, the "Y" was never as clean as it was when they were not there "helping." And after the "help" left (about three hours), it took the rest of the shift to attempt to do what had still to be done.

On those days, there was no shooting hoops; no sauna; no weight room; no reading...no short naps.

Those ten to twelve helpers would have helped best by not helping. Productivity suffered significantly by them being there; productivity increased with them staying the hell out of the way.

It works this way in the marketplace also.

Are you telling me that in your working life...you have never encountered someone working incompetently or grudgingly...who did not impact negatively on the productivity of where you were working?
 
What does that have to do with anything I said?



Great!

That is what we should be doing...creating incentives NOT TO WORK. Instead we are on an Alice in Wonderland voyage to CREATE WORK...to CREATE JOBS...simply because some people think people ought to work.

Keep people out of the way. LEt machines do the work they can...and let only the most capable and willing do the work that has to be done by humans. There's plenty of it...and rewarding people who are capable and willing is a fine way to make a better, more productive society.



What I said is...they do not have to work.

I'll stick with that.



What I have been saying is that people who are lazy, unmotivated, and inefficient...hurt productivity.

Okay...so here is a "real world" example of what I am talking about:

A friend of mine was a janitor at a YMCA. (I was at one time also, and I have witnessed this same story.)

He was very efficient…and was able to clean the building after closing in four to five hours. But he was paid for 8 hours…and had to stay at the facility until it opened in the morning.

After his four to five hours of work, the place was spotless…so he would take a sauna; shoot hoops; read; work out in the weight room; or just take a nap until opening.

About once a month, the local municipal judge would send his “community service” people over to “help.” These are the people the judge sentenced to community service for various minor violations.

Ten, twelve people would show up to "help" clean up. They were not happy about being there...they were not motivated to work diligently.

On the mornings after the "help" was in place, the "Y" was never as clean as it was when they were not there "helping." And after the "help" left (about three hours), it took the rest of the shift to attempt to do what had still to be done.

On those days, there was no shooting hoops; no sauna; no weight room; no reading...no short naps.

Those ten to twelve helpers would have helped best by not helping. Productivity suffered significantly by them being there; productivity increased with them staying the hell out of the way.

It works this way in the marketplace also.

Are you telling me that in your working life...you have never encountered someone working incompetently or grudgingly...who did not impact negatively on the productivity of where you were working?

I absolutely have encountered people at work who are incompetent, etc, never more so than when I worked at a union shop.

Your YMCA example is very understandable, but I dont know that it applies to the business word.

As for replacing much work with machines-thats an efficiency measure, but with that efficiency the consumer would expect a reduction in costs. Competitive businesses would lower prices to increase their market share. If they didn't, why would they pay for the machines?

So where will the increased taxation needed to pay for everyone elses govt check come from?
 
I absolutely have encountered people at work who are incompetent, etc, never more so than when I worked at a union shop.

Your YMCA example is very understandable, but I dont know that it applies to the business word.

As for replacing much work with machines-thats an efficiency measure, but with that efficiency the consumer would expect a reduction in costs. Competitive businesses would lower prices to increase their market share. If they didn't, why would they pay for the machines?

So where will the increased taxation needed to pay for everyone elses govt check come from?

You go back into the box all the time, US.

Get out of it...and suppose that we can find a way to distribute the bounty of our nation...so that no one has a need for food, clothing, shelter, medical care, educational opportunities, transportation, communications, and a reasonable amount of leisure amenities.

If you think we cannot...maybe we can hire some people from outside the United States to show us how we can.

The problem is not "how do we pay for it" or taxation or any of that other stuff.

The problem is "We have plenty of everything...and if we get the incompetent out of the work force, we will have even more. Now...all we have to do is find a way to distribute it...so that everybody gets what they need."

It would probably cut down on crime. If everyone had a 55" flat screen...who would steal a TV?

By now, you have to see the value of the thought,US. All you are doing is fighting it, because the notion goes so against the grain of your political philosophy.
 
You go back into the box all the time, US.

Get out of it...and suppose that we can find a way to distribute the bounty of our nation...so that no one has a need for food, clothing, shelter, medical care, educational opportunities, transportation, communications, and a reasonable amount of leisure amenities.

If you think we cannot...maybe we can hire some people from outside the United States to show us how we can.

The problem is not "how do we pay for it" or taxation or any of that other stuff.

The problem is "We have plenty of everything...and if we get the incompetent out of the work force, we will have even more. Now...all we have to do is find a way to distribute it...so that everybody gets what they need."

It would probably cut down on crime. If everyone had a 55" flat screen...who would steal a TV?

By now, you have to see the value of the thought,US. All you are doing is fighting it, because the notion goes so against the grain of your political philosophy.

It goes against more than my politics, it goes against reality-its never worked. In the end why would anyone work if they get the same as everyone else?
Why work harder when there's no reward?

Besides, I want people to do better than welfare or whatever meager handouts the govt would bestow upon them by taking from others. I want people to do better than that, and I think the vast majority can.
 
Food for thought.
The fundamental producer of income inequality is freedom. Individuals have different aptitudes and attitudes. Not even universal free public education, even were it well done, could equalize the ability of individuals to add value to the economy. Besides, some people want to teach, others want to run hedge funds. In an open society, rewards are set not by political power but by impersonal market forces, the rewards of which will differ dramatically but usually predictably. Beyond freedom’s valuable fecundity in producing unequal social outcomes, four other facets of today’s America fuel inequality.

First, the entitlement state exists primarily to transfer wealth regressively, from the working-age population to the retired elderly who, after a lifetime of accumulation, are the wealthiest age cohort. Second, big, regulatory government inherently exacerbates inequality because it inevitably serves the strong — those sufficiently educated, affluent, articulate and confident to influence the administrative state’s myriad redistributive actions.

Third, seven years of ZIRP — zero-interest-rate policy — have not restored the economic dynamism essential for social mobility but have had the intended effect of driving liquidity into equities in search of high yields, thereby enriching the 10 percent of Americans who own approximately 80 percent of the directly owned stocks. Also, by making big government inexpensive, low interest rates exacerbate the political class’s perennial disposition toward deficit spending. And little of the 2016 federal budget’s $283 billion for debt service will flow to individuals earning less than the median income.
Fourth, family disintegration cripples the primary transmitter of social capital — the habits, mores, customs and dispositions necessary for seizing opportunities. When 72 percent of African American children and 53 percent of Hispanic children are born to unmarried women, and 40 percent of all births are to unmarried women, and a majority of all mothers under 30 are not living with the fathers of their children, the consequences for the life chances, and lifetime earnings, of millions of children are enormous.

Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) is doing well, if not good, by reducing the debate about equality to resentment of large fortunes. He should read Harry G. Frankfurt’s new book “On Inequality.” It is so short (89 pages) that even a peripatetic candidate can read it, and so lucid that he cannot miss its inconvenient point: “It is misguided to endorse economic egalitarianism as an authentic moral ideal.”
What Bernie Sanders doesn’t understand about economic equality
 
It goes against more than my politics, it goes against reality-its never worked. In the end why would anyone work if they get the same as everyone else?

I have said time and time again that the people who do work...get greater compensation.

Why are you still claiming this?

Do you actually want a discussion...or do you just want to create straw men...and then argue with them rather than deal with what is being said?





Why work harder when there's no reward?

Who ever said there would be no reward for working harder???


Besides, I want people to do better than welfare or whatever meager handouts the govt would bestow upon them by taking from others. I want people to do better than that, and I think the vast majority can.

Sure you do!!!

That is why you are so opposed to even considering that everyone get the necessities of life.
 
I have said time and time again that the people who do work...get greater compensation.

Why are you still claiming this?

Do you actually want a discussion...or do you just want to create straw men...and then argue with them rather than deal with what is being said?







Who ever said there would be no reward for working harder???




Sure you do!!!

That is why you are so opposed to even considering that everyone get the necessities of life.

I think at this point we should agree to disagree. What do you say? No ill will intended.
 
i'd like to take a little bit of time to see how this wealth redistribution works So let's spread some around, shall we?

For our example let's take two people.

person 1 is making $75,000 a year, before redistribution.

Person 2 is making $25,000 a year.

So a fair wealth redistribution would be to take those salaries, and add them together, for a total of $100,000.

The government gets to take say ten percent of it. Which would be $10,000.

Distributing the money in a fair and equitable manner, each person will now get $45,000. It'ds adrop for the higher wage income earner, but a huge boost to the lower wage income earner, which increases the quality of his, or her, life.

It sounds really fair, doesn't it?

But here's the thing. The government gets a ten percent fee for running things, making sure that the people are treated in a fair manner, and get their fair and equal share.

And $10,000 doesn't sound too bad of a deal, right?

But, if you have a society with say, 100 people. Well, that is 100 x $10,000, which comes out to a grand total of $1,000,000. And that is while each person is making $45,000 a year.

And make no mistake, the government does need that money to make sure everyone has their fair and equal share. For without the government to enable this system, most people will just not willingly donate their salary to enable a fair and equal share.

And that's why you need the government. For you can not have fair and equal sharing of money without it.


So, this all sounds like it's a fair system to me.

Does this sound fair to you?

Talk to a Union.

If the 1% is keeping all the money YOU WORKED HARD FOR and giving YOU pennies, it's not ok. If you want to call it "Redistribution after workers get their fair pay" that is on you and it ignores American History of Greedy Business Fat Cat Industrial Complex.

If you think you are poor because your boss can't afford a raise..............in 2015..................you are about to get pushed out of politics. Corporate Profits have been an all time high and workers wages have been an all time low for years. CEO's want you to think they can't afford raises for YOU because of Obama's Taxation...It's why the hard working poor hate Obama so much. And why CEO PAY is record high.
 
I think at this point we should agree to disagree. What do you say? No ill will intended.

Understood, US.

Thanks for the replies...and for the courtesy.

We do disagree...and we can part on a nice note.
 
Talk to a Union.

If the 1% is keeping all the money YOU WORKED HARD FOR and giving YOU pennies, it's not ok. If you want to call it "Redistribution after workers get their fair pay" that is on you and it ignores American History of Greedy Business Fat Cat Industrial Complex.

If you think you are poor because your boss can't afford a raise..............in 2015..................you are about to get pushed out of politics. Corporate Profits have been an all time high and workers wages have been an all time low for years. CEO's want you to think they can't afford raises for YOU because of Obama's Taxation...It's why the hard working poor hate Obama so much. And why CEO PAY is record high.

The "hard working poor" hate Obama? Who the hell do you think voted for the great Progressive Monarch?

He won them over with "their fair share". He won them over with his war on the 1%. His class and racial warfare won him the Presidency in 2008 and reelection in 2012.

I wonder if you Progressive folks who are so fervently in favor of wealth redistribution are okay with it in the other direction. If a company fails because of whatever reason should the poor, abused workers be required to pay back their wages? Nope, it's the business owner that goes bankrupt or looses his/her investment. Yes, the worker looses a job, but they were compensated for their time and labor.
 
i'd like to take a little bit of time to see how this wealth redistribution works So let's spread some around, shall we?

For our example let's take two people.

person 1 is making $75,000 a year, before redistribution.

Person 2 is making $25,000 a year.

So a fair wealth redistribution would be to take those salaries, and add them together, for a total of $100,000.

The government gets to take say ten percent of it. Which would be $10,000.

Distributing the money in a fair and equitable manner, each person will now get $45,000. It'ds adrop for the higher wage income earner, but a huge boost to the lower wage income earner, which increases the quality of his, or her, life.

It sounds really fair, doesn't it?

But here's the thing. The government gets a ten percent fee for running things, making sure that the people are treated in a fair manner, and get their fair and equal share.

And $10,000 doesn't sound too bad of a deal, right?

But, if you have a society with say, 100 people. Well, that is 100 x $10,000, which comes out to a grand total of $1,000,000. And that is while each person is making $45,000 a year.

And make no mistake, the government does need that money to make sure everyone has their fair and equal share. For without the government to enable this system, most people will just not willingly donate their salary to enable a fair and equal share.

And that's why you need the government. For you can not have fair and equal sharing of money without it.


So, this all sounds like it's a fair system to me.

Does this sound fair to you?

This whole post is BS. The premise is a lie. To the rich, the guy making 75k is just as much of a member of the underclass as a guy making 25k. The wealth disparity that is being addressed this political season is between the .1% and the bottom ninety. It should be a goal of our government to see that dynastic wealth, which is toxic to our democracy, is actively opposed and mitigated by the tax system.
 
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