Kentucky city mayor: Confederate statues to come down after Charlottesville

[CLAX1911]

dude, don't bring Germany into it. these goofballs will seize all over that. and why are you wasting your breath anyway? they don't want to discuss the merits of your argument. that want to show everyone how NON-racist they are, like that's some big accomplishment. "congratulations, your not racists scumbags". slow clap. they should go fix that mess of a political party they belong to and stop name-calling people they don't agree with.

Calling the opposing force traitors is illogical. Pointing out poor logic is always important.

 

[jamesrage]

The SPLC inventoried Confederate monuments, and it's just a fact most went up in the period 1900-1920 or so. You can see the visual here, pages 12 and 13. There was a spike during the Civil Rights era as well. https://www.splcenter.org/sites/default/files/whoseheritage_splc.pdf

Hate to play devils advocate here. But war memorials don't always automatically get built right after a war is over. So the fact those war memorials were built 30 to 60 some odd years after the civil war was over doesn't really prove your point.Korean war memorial, world war 2 memorial and many other war memorials were built man decades after those wars were over.

 

[Brochacholomigo]

They do, however, represent and dignify traitors and treason.

Just like all the monuments to the founding fathers, a band of men who voted to secede from a government, and then raised arms against that government while still under its jurisdiction.

History isn't pretty, but that's no reason to tear down monuments. If anything, that distances us from vital lessons of the past.

 

[JoeTrumps]

Calling the opposing force traitors is illogical. Pointing out poor logic is always important.

I know what the problem is. these people have seen too many movies. they think they are the "good guys" in white, and so everyone who doesn't agree with them must be "bad guys". no grey area. Whether it's the Confederacy, Conservatives, Climate Change or Gay Rights. you buy into their side or you are Darth Vader, hellbent on destruction.

it's silly. but that's the reality of the situation.

 

[apdst]

I know what the problem is. these people have seen too many movies. they think they are the "good guys" in white, and so everyone who doesn't agree with them must be "bad guys". no grey area. Whether it's the Confederacy, Conservatives, Climate Change or Gay Rights. you buy into their side or you are Darth Vader, hellbent on destruction.

it's silly. but that's the reality of the situation.

Intimidation is the only way they can sell their brand.

 

[JasperL]

What the hateful and evil people in those groups choose to cling to will not change by removing from public view any reminder of the country's past. Their hate surpasses any monument that means anything but hate to the families that their ancestors are represented by those monuments.

You might be more persuasive if you weren't insisting that anyone who disagrees with you on the monuments and what they mean isn't basing their views on illegitimate motivations.

We can make being a racist dick illegal, but that won't stop them. We can tear down every statue and monument, and that won't stop them. We can make the Confederate flag illegal, and that won't stop them. We can make the swastika illegal, and that won't stop them. We can even make their organizations and the mere mention of their names illegal, and that, too, will not stop them.

The destruction of these monuments accomplishes two things; 1) it coddles certain race centric groups that create mayhem when not coddled, and 2) it hurts the families of veterans that feel like these continued actions are nothing but extended punishment by others for actions not of their control.

You call it "coddling" and I'd call it recognizes legitimate issues surrounding a state-sponsored monument to men who fought to perpetuate an evil institution of slavery. Those monuments "hurt" them like removing them "hurts" you. So why should society in 2017 "coddle" your views just because you had family die on the war? Why are your feelings more important than those of blacks who surely cannot be inspired by a monument to, e.g. Jefferson Davis, or Lee.

And how long is long enough? We're not bound for perpetuity to continue to maintain monuments put up a century ago. The people of Lexington, as a group, have every right to decide that instead of honoring long dead confederates known to few that they'd rather honor men and women of THIS era who can inspire them all.

 

[d0gbreath]

The statues and monuments to US veterans that fought under the Confederacy do not, by any means possible, represent or dignify the KKK, white nationalists, neo-Nazi's, or the Alt-Right.

You are correct. Nazis and Confederate soldiers are simply completely different.

But, you're not in Lexington, KY. If the mayor wants the statues removed, they will be.

 

[Tanngrisnir]

So, how many more times are you going to piss on Boudreaux's family? That's twice...

How many times are you going to pretend I actually did that?

That's once....

 

[apdst]

You might be more persuasive if you weren't insisting that anyone who disagrees with you on the monuments and what they mean isn't basing their views on illegitimate motivations.



You call it "coddling" and I'd call it recognizes legitimate issues surrounding a state-sponsored monument to men who fought to perpetuate an evil institution of slavery. Those monuments "hurt" them like removing them "hurts" you. So why should society in 2017 "coddle" your views just because you had family die on the war? Why are your feelings more important than those of blacks who surely cannot be inspired by a monument to, e.g. Jefferson Davis, or Lee.

And how long is long enough? We're not bound for perpetuity to continue to maintain monuments put up a century ago. The people of Lexington, as a group, have every right to decide that instead of honoring long dead confederates known to few that they'd rather honor men and women of THIS era who can inspire them all.

Are you saying blacks are so stupid that their inspiration is being stolen by these monuments?

 

[Tanngrisnir]

They aren't traitors. Traitors abandon their home to help the enemy. They would only be traitors if they deserted confederate ranks to fight I the union army. You can't just call all of the people on the opposing side of a war traitors.

The Germans weren't traitors in WWII

They levied war against the United States. That's textbook treason, straight out of the Constitution.

 

[Cephus]

Well done, Lexington. The Nazis are only hurting their own cause with their behavior, and, IMHO, they more they hurt, the better for America.

Lexington mayor: Confederate statues to come down after Charlottesville - CNN

No, Lexington is only proving that everything the white nationalists are saying is true. Way to validate their complaints.

 

[JasperL]

Hate to play devils advocate here. But war memorials don't always automatically get built right after a war is over. So the fact those war memorials were built 30 to 60 some odd years after the civil war was over doesn't really prove your point.Korean war memorial, world war 2 memorial and many other war memorials were built man decades after those wars were over.

The person I responded too claimed that it was not true that these things went up in the Jim Crow era. It's fact that they did. It's likely that in nearly every case, the governments in the South erecting them had NO blacks in office because few if any blacks could vote, so the same men denying blacks the vote erected monuments to men who fought to keep them enslaved. Surely you can see why blacks and others, like me, have a problem with that, and don't mind them coming down.

I'm no zealot on the issue - my view is the local communities in 2017 should decide who to honor, and if they were deciding on who to honor today, I doubt any would decide, "You know, let's glorify a dead Confederate!" So, take them down, fine with me (or not! Also fine). Put up a monument to people ALL the citizens can admire for who they are and what they did.

Seems....obviously fine to me. Common sense.

 

[apdst]

How many times are you going to pretend I actually did that?

That's once....

Boudreaux asked, politely and respectfully for you all to refrain and your response was nothing short of a **** you.

 

[apdst]

They levied war against the United States. That's textbook treason, straight out of the Constitution.

#3....

 

[Tanngrisnir]

I think it's more of a middle finger to history.

No, it's not even remotely that. The history remains unchanged. It isn't being rewritten or altered. The monuments to treason are merely being removed.

Many people apply modern values and morality to situations in the past. That is illogical.

Treason back then is the same as treason today.

 

[JasperL]

No, Lexington is only proving that everything the white nationalists are saying is true. Way to validate their complaints.

What is that?

If they're saying, "We as society have no obligation to honor dead confederates for perpetuity" then I suppose that's the message all right. I am not sure why that should be a problem, though.

 

[Tanngrisnir]

No, it wasn't their country. The confederate states were.

They suceeded from the union. Just like the 13 colonies suceeded from England.

Of the confederate states were traitors, so its Mexico, the united states and any other state that attempted to gain independance from its mother land.

That particular bit of ahistorical nonsense has been hashed out here countless times. I'm not going to waste time endlessly refuting the same debunked bull**** again.

 

[CLAX1911]

I've thought about it a lot. You have a view of the Civil War that's not shared by a lot of people. You see your ancestors who were probably good people just fighting for their state. But a black girl sees monuments glorifying men who believed she is inferior because she's black and fought to keep HER ancestors in bondage, to sell their children out from under them, beat them and kill them, rape her female ancestors, with impunity.

this is the reason why you need a better understanding of History. A black girl does not see a monument to a person who thought she was inferior that person died over a century ago and has no idea who a black girl that exists in modern world today is. The person memorialized may have believed her ancestors to be inferior. However he believed that because they were slaves not because they were black. The point where the slave class became strictly black happened later during slavery and it was predicated on the concept of slavery itself not racism.

It's also just a fact, history, that the vast majority of those monuments, schools, etc. were erected by governments who having lost the Civil War proceeded to enact Jim Crow laws that guaranteed a second class existence for that little black girl's ancestors, denied them the vote, looked the other way as white men beat them, lynched them, tried their abusers before all-white juries who frequently refused to convict white men accused of crimes against blacks.

yes history was brutal. Adora brutal unfair times in our nation's history. It is important we don't destroy that history so as to not repeat it. You can't apply modern-day morals two people that lived and died over a century ago. Remember it be angry about it that's good it's an excellent way to evolve grow and move forward.

That little girl's ancestors had no say what monuments were erected in the public square because her ancestors could not VOTE or hold office because of Jim Crow. Their views were made irrelevant by laws of those states enforced by the guns of the state.

See above.

I have no doubt what you feel when you see those monuments isn't a longing for slavery or Jim Crow, but what I also know is what others feel, and they look at symbols GLORIFYING men who fought to keep her ancestors in bondage, erected by men who passed laws making them second class citizens - they're symbols of hundreds of years of oppression in this country.

why on Earth would you want to erase such a symbol? It is important more than that it is an inspiring Tale of how far we have advanced and just a couple hundred years.

It was just half a century ago that we had laws in place that forbade black people from using water fountains and today Nothing Stops a black man from becoming president for either party. Isn't that amazing? Isn't that an inspiring tale of human Triumph?

Yes it was brutal and people died and we're mistreated and there are probably heels that were soaked with blood. If it's that important that 600000 men died for it why would you ever want to erase that?

Both those views ARE valid, and it's perfectly legitimate for society to decide that little girl's views matter most, and to remove those monuments from places of honor in the public square and honor men and women that ALL of that city's citizens can be inspired by.

I'm sorry the views of the little girl don't exist. Again a man that died over a century ago has no idea that said little girl ever existed she came into existence long after his death. And what about the amazing tale of human Triumph between then and now?

What about the reunification of the United States after the Civil War? How many countries can just go back to the way it was after Civil War? How many cultures listened to the lowest among them and faught for them to the point at which we are where we are today where the concept of segregation is so alien we can't even empathize?

The monument isn't built to say how great slavery was. It was built to inspire.

 

[JasperL]

Are you saying blacks are so stupid that their inspiration is being stolen by these monuments?

No.

I'll risk Godwinning the thread, but if a community of Jews proposed to take down a monument to Hitler, or the Nazi party, only idiots and fools would object that they must ALWAYS keep monuments glorifying Hitler/the Third Reich in the public square cause HISTORY!! The idea is absurd, obviously. So why in the world is it so hard to grasp that a good share of the population isn't thrilled about dead confederates in places of honor in 2017?

 

[CLAX1911]

That particular bit of ahistorical nonsense has been hashed out here countless times. I'm not going to waste time endlessly refuting the same debunked bull**** again.

You're dodging it because you know I'm right they didn't go against their Nation their nation was the Confederacy.

It's okay you can't hash it out and you're just trying to save face I get it. But you aren't fooling me. Perhaps I'm not the person you're trying to fool

 

[Cephus]

What is that?

If they're saying, "We as society have no obligation to honor dead confederates for perpetuity" then I suppose that's the message all right. I am not sure why that should be a problem, though.

Hardly. It's more along the lines of "American history offends our precious little liberal sensibilities, therefore we're going to do everything in our power to stomp it out." It won't be too much long before liberal college professors will simply refuse to talk about the Civil War at all.

 

[Tanngrisnir]

Just like all the monuments to the founding fathers, a band of men who voted to secede from a government, and then raised arms against that government while still under its jurisdiction.

History isn't pretty, but that's no reason to tear down monuments. If anything, that distances us from vital lessons of the past.

That's just it: history isn't being made any prettier than it already is/isn't by removing memorials to treason and traitors.

Essentially what every confederate monument/statue is a participation trophy is the greatest act of mass treason in our nation's history.

I choose not to support them, but I'm not altering any history in so doing.

 

[Cephus]

You're dodging it because you know I'm right they didn't go against their Nation their nation was the Confederacy.

It's okay you can't hash it out and you're just trying to save face I get it. But you aren't fooling me. Perhaps I'm not the person you're trying to fool

The Confederacy only existed because they didn't like what their nation turned into. Not saying they were right, but that's the historical fact. The Confederacy came about because American citizens could no longer take what America was like so they split off, or attempted to.

 

[Tanngrisnir]

Boudreaux asked, politely and respectfully for you all to refrain and your response was nothing short of a **** you.

So what? Unlike you, I neither fear history nor do I seek to whitewash it.

Don't like it? That's just too goddamned bad.

Why do you support traitors to the US?

 

[jamesrage]

Well done, Lexington. The Nazis are only hurting their own cause with their behavior, and, IMHO, they more they hurt, the better for America.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/08/13/us/ke...1317kentucky-confederate-monuments1153AMStory

Those racist scum even if they were being peaceful would still be hurting their cause just by being there. Because everyone who says those statues represent slavery,racism and segregation are proven right when racist scum protest the removal of those statues. Everyone who opposes those statues being there just have to point or post a youtube clip of racist protesting the removal of those statues to make their case that racist scum want those statues up because of slavery, segregation and slavery.