Kavanaugh Debacle: My Opinion.

[bearpoker]

You seem to be treating this as a team sport.

If she says it, it's so. Go team liberal women!

If you'd been sexually harassed I think you'd see things differently. When I was young and indignant, as opposed to old, cynical and indignant, I told guys I thought were friends about what happened. I was in the army at the time and most of the people I knew were guys. I was met with blank, I don't care, what are you talking about, stares. After that, I kept it to myself. Don't get me started about you.

 

[Mach]

Hmm...I hear a lot about "smearing the accuser". Doesn't that work both ways? Isn't the accusation a smear in its own right? Why is one horrible and the other understandable?

Beacuse you go from talking about the accuser...to unrelated people and entertainers attacking her credibility in a coordinated and politically motivated charade. There is the accuser, and the accused. Brett is not being accused of smearing her. She’s not...by decent people, being accused of smearing him.

It’s as governess said, some people on the right...and right wing media, that has taken it upon themselves to smear her. When Anita Hill was smeared by Republicans back in the day...the Senators themselves felt they could smear her from the floor. Now they use proxies. Maybe one day, the won’t do it at all.

An accusation warrants character assassination from right wing media, because of their agenda? Think about it.

 

[gdgyva]

If you'd been sexually harassed I think you'd see things differently. When I was young and indignant, as opposed to old, cynical and indignant, I told guys I thought were friends about what happened. I was in the army at the time and most of the people I knew were guys. I was met with blank, I don't care, what are you talking about, stares. After that, I kept it to myself. Don't get me started about you.

So you went to the MP’s right?

If not, why not?

This is the part I don’t understand....the militant attitudes some women have towards a story with no proof....

Yet I bet, you never went to the authorities....don’t know that...just a hunch...and I could be dead wrong

The only way to stop aggressive behavior is to punish it.....but we can’t do it 35 years after it happens

And yes...I know it is sometimes hard to prove, and cops are sometime reluctant to prosecute cases....DA’s hate losing cases and sexual assault are notoriously the hardest to get convictions on....my best friends are cops....these cases come up on occasion and my wife blisters them about it when they don’t aggressively go after them

But these me too cases 30 and 40 years after the fact with zero evidence other than he said/she said is mind boggling

 

[DiAnna]

I'll be honest, I'm not too familiar with Anita Hill's case, as I was not even alive when that took place. But it would probably do me some good to look further into what happened with her.

It was horrible. The republican senators called her a liar, implied she was a disgruntled slut because Thomas ignored her flirtatious behavior, and that she knew all about the porn movies she testified Thomas gave her details about because she was the one who had watched them herself, and on, and on, and on. Her life, as she had known it, was officially over... forever.

 

[DH Kirkwood]

We normally see people almost universally take sides based on what's conveinant for them. I don't think that most people are aware of this. I don't think that most people sit down and think to themselves, 'Gee, I wonder how I can spin this to support/oppose this guy?' It's probably far more subconcious than that.

Long-story-short, it's refreshing to see a well-thought-out, objective analysis followed up by an 'I don't know.'

 

[Lutherf]

Beacuse you go from talking about the accuser...to unrelated people and entertainers attacking her credibility in a coordinated and politically motivated charade. There is the accuser, and the accused. Brett is not being accused of smearing her. She’s not...by decent people, being accused of smearing him.

It’s as governess said, some people on the right...and right wing media, that has taken it upon themselves to smear her. When Anita Hill was smeared by Republicans back in the day...the Senators themselves felt they could smear her from the floor. Now they use proxies. Maybe one day, the won’t do it at all.

An accusation warrants character assassination from right wing media, because of their agenda? Think about it.

She's not being accused of smearing Kavanaugh? What do you call it then? She came out with a claim that he forced her into a room, locked the door, groped her and tried to cover her mouth when she cried for help. She has no evidence that what she said actually happened and nobody has corroborated that kind of behavior on Kavanaugh's part...including through half a dozen FBI investigations into his history.

Look, I can understand people wanting to believe this woman. I can understand feeling that questioning her story is tantamount to accusing her of lying. What I can't understand is why those feelings preclude one from feeling the same thing about Kavanaugh. Why is it so easy to believe the accuser and not the accused? Why not give Kavanaugh, a guy with a long, proven history of being an all around decent guy the benefit of the doubt?

 

[TheGoverness]

We normally see people almost universally take sides based on what's conveinant for them. I don't think that most people are aware of this. I don't think that most people sit down and think to themselves, 'Gee, I wonder how I can spin this to support/oppose this guy?' It's probably far more subconcious than that.

Long-story-short, it's refreshing to see a well-thought-out, objective analysis followed up by an 'I don't know.'

Thanks. Appreciate the support.

 

[bearpoker]

So you went to the MP’s right?

If not, why not?

This is the part I don’t understand....the militant attitudes some women have towards a story with no proof....

Yet I bet, you never went to the authorities....don’t know that...just a hunch...and I could be dead wrong

The only way to stop aggressive behavior is to punish it.....but we can’t do it 35 years after it happens

And yes...I know it is sometimes hard to prove, and cops are sometime reluctant to prosecute cases....DA’s hate losing cases and sexual assault are notoriously the hardest to get convictions on....my best friends are cops....these cases come up on occasion and my wife blisters them about it when they don’t aggressively go after them

But these me too cases 30 and 40 years after the fact with zero evidence other than he said/she said is mind boggling

Why on earth would I go to the cops with personal stuff? It's not against the law to be a sexually harassing asshole unless you're a supervisor. Otherwise you can call me names and make lewd advances with perfect impunity in this great country. If every woman who'd been groped in a bar pressed charges, the justice system would grind to a halt. I can only conclude that you are a really good guy with no idea of what it's like for women, so I'm sorry to disillusion about this.

 

[Moot]

In her own account in the Washpo article she said she had been drinking also

I doubt she drank as much as the boys from the "Keg City Club."....

"...In two memoirs, Judge depicted his high school as a nest of debauchery where students attended “masturbation class,” “lusted after girls” from nearby Catholic schools and drank themselves into stupors at parties....

Two years earlier, in an ode to “sexy” pulp novels, Judge lamented “social justice warriors” who confuse rape with innocent demonstrations of masculinity. He wrote then of “an ambiguous middle ground, where the woman seems interested and indicates, whether verbally or not, that the man needs to prove himself to her.”....

He has also written repeatedly about his thoughts on sexual violence, which might make him an interesting character witness if Ford’s accusations against Kavanaugh result in a prolonged public investigation..."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...bout-female-sexuality/?utm_term=.6950e76418b8

https://www.wusa9.com/article/news/...me-court-nominee-brett-kavanaugh/65-595626391​

Underage teens bragging about drinking and "devils' triangles" in their yearbook...where were the adults at this school? Oh...

"...In his 2005 memoir, “God and Man at Georgetown Prep,” he wrote that he co-published the school’s underground student newspaper in his senior year, dedicating it largely to documenting the school’s party scene. One issue pictured a music teacher at a bachelor party “chugging a beer, surrounded by a group of us with raised mugs, sitting down while being entertained by the stripper.”..."​

Now I kinda see why Feinstein wanted the FBI to investigate Kavanaugh's HS daze.

 

[TheGoverness]

Why on earth would I go to the cops with personal stuff? It's not against the law to be a sexually harassing asshole unless you're a supervisor. Otherwise you can call me names and make lewd advances with perfect impunity in this great country. If every woman who'd been groped in a bar pressed charges, the justice system would grind to a halt. I can only conclude that you are a really good guy with no idea of what it's like for women, so I'm sorry to disillusion about this.

Well, sexual harassment can be considered illegal if it is severe and/or frequent. But I'm sure that may vary in many places.

 

[Mach]

She's not being accused of smearing Kavanaugh? What do you call it then? She came out with a claim that he forced her into a room, locked the door, groped her and tried to cover her mouth when she criedo for help.

Oh my. It’s an accusation Luther. Claiming an accusation of sexual assault a smear job is exactly wrong. You attack the potential victim. I thought we were past this nonsense. Brett is a big boy..we hope..he can defend himself against a woman...surely. He can say his side, and inveatigatiors can decide if it needs investigating and how to handle it. Then senators can make up their mind. None of which requires you..or right wing media...to demonize her.

Look, I can understand people wanting to believe this woman. I can understand feeling that questioning her story is tantamount to accusing her.

Beacause that’s not what’s being discussed. Investigators and possibly senators may question her allegation..they most certainly can and should. Right wing media is not questioning her..they are smearing her to hurt her credibility. Big difference. Why does this even have to be explained.

 

[bearpoker]

Well, sexual harassment can be considered illegal if it is severe and/or frequent. But I'm sure that may vary in many places.

This was in the 70's. Sexual harassment wasn't even invented yet. I just thought they were annoying assholes. Long story short, I believed Anita Hill and I believe Dr Ford. There are a lot of entitled males out there that think women were put on this earth for their benefit.

That said, I still applaud your skepticism and I admire you approach to this issue.

 

[Zyphlin]

Yeah, that's why I said lie detector tests are not proof of anything.

Another thing to think about in terms of the lie detector and her story in general, that's far less nefarious than paying to fake it or beating it or anything else like that.

College was roughly 15 years ago for me (God I feel weird saying that). Over the past 5 years there's been times I've gotten back together with friends where we've been reminiscing. There's been numerous instances from parties, and even some non-drinking events, where I or they have had a very distinct recollection of how an event went but other people seem to remember it differently. Sometimes it can be as simple as disagreement on things that were said or by who, other times it can be as much as who was there or involved, or what actions or things actually happened or the order they went in.

Yet to many of us, the memory we had was a vivid one that absolutely felt like the correct one even if many others disagreed. Years, and also alcohol, can wrap memories. Over time, your recollection of events goes back to what you've been "remembering", which just re-enforces it; but often, it's far from an absolute accurate one if you really took a collection of recollections from multiple people there. Even "traumatic" events at times can be distorted as you focus more and more on how you FELT then, or subsequently when you've thought about it, than what happened and it can skew what you remember actually happening to better fit the feeling.

All of which is to say that 30+ years later, she absolutely could honestly believe everything she says and pass a lie detector in a wholly honest fashion, but it still not necessarily be a 100% accurate retelling of what happened that day. It's only indicating that it's an accurate retelling of how she recalls it 30+ years later.

 

[Moot]

Tell that to the Duke lacrosse team.

It was sad what happened to the Duke Lacrosse team....but the backlog of hundreds of thousands of rape kits still going untested is absolutely unconscionable.

 

[Acadia]

Tell that to all the women whose rape kits are waiting for their day in court.

No need to, they weren't "powerful men"...and it predates the MeToo movement by more than a decade.

It was sad what happened to the Duke Lacrosse team....but the backlog of hundreds of thousands of rape kits still going untested is absolutely unconscionable.

"sad...but".

 

[Moot]

Hardly, Diane Feinstein abused her power for sure;.

Abused? Did she rape or sexually assault someone? Do tell.

 

[JMR]

Yeah...the Duke Lacrosse Team was "smearing the accuser" by DENYING HER LIES , too, remember?

This is nothing more than Anita Hill REDUX; NO PROOF OF ANY OF HER CLAIMS.

Her own NAMED WITNESS, "Mark Judge" says it's COMPLETE NONSENSE, that it never happened, and he never saw Kavanaugh behave is such a fashion EVER.

Sixty-plus people who knew him in high school call Blasey-Ford's claims utter nonsense.


Let's examine her accounts for checks from Perkins Coies, says I....

Just saying....a guy who would jump on the pile as Judge is accused of doing is probably gonna claim none of it happened.

 

[Moot]

"sad...but".

At least their ordeal had a happy ending...not so for the hundreds of thousands of women waiting decades for their rape kits to get tested and their day in court.

 

[Acadia]

At least their ordeal had a happy ending...not so for the hundreds of thousands of women waiting decades for their rape kits to get tested and their day in court.

Seriously? These young men will forever be tainted by allegations of RAPE.
Disgusting.

 

[HumblePi]

I believe that Brett Kavanaugh has no clear recollection of this incident but I believe he has some memory of it. I also believe that Christine Blasey Ford is telling the truth. Brett Kavanaugh graduated from Bethesda’s Georgetown Prep high school in 1983 which was an all-boys high school. The yearbook has pages dedicated to each graduating high school senior. Kavanaugh’s page includes references to the "Keg City Club" and "100 kegs or bust."

Brett Kavanaugh was drunk at the time of the incident. Christine Blasey was just 15 years old. I can say from first-hand experience that any woman that has been sexually molested, no matter how old she was at the time, will never forget exactly what happened right down to the smallest detail and that memory doesn't dim or vague with passing years. it's always a memory that's as clear as if it happened days ago, not decades ago.

I think Brett Kavanaugh made a huge mistake denying it adamantly. If he had said, "I have no clear memory of this, but I believe I was at that party and was very drunk. I really don't recall anything about the incident she describes but if I had done what she said, it was an unforgivable act and I want to apologize to this woman. I would never intentionally do anything like that and I'm so very sorry if I had, I only hope she can accept my heartfelt apology that's long overdue her." That's all that Brett Kavanaugh should have said.

So that's how I would have handled it if I were him, then the Republicans could say "see what a great guy he is accepting responsibility even though he has no memory of that incident!" He would have been confirmed by this Thurs., but now that he denied it, there will be a big mess for both of them that's going public in a open hearing. Regardless of the outcome, Kavanaugh will be confirmed.

Memories of the Clarence Thomas and Anita Hill hearings all come back once again in a very similar situation. Only then, Anita Hill was demonized and attacked and implied that she was a slut. In addition to Joe Biden attacking her credibility, so was Orrin Hatch.

Orrin Hatch was questioned today by a reporter; Reporter: "Do you think that any of these claims are legitimate?" Hatch: "No, I don't. I think this woman, whoever she is, is mixed up. I can't speak for her but all I can say is, no I don't." Senator Hatch didn't even take dignify Christine Blasey Ford with a name. To Orrin Hatch she's 'this woman, whoever she is'.

The words of Orrin Hatch are very similar to the words he said regarding the Anita Hill testimony against Clarence Thomas 27 years ago. "And there's no question in my mind she was coached by special interest groups," "Her story's too contrived. It's so slick it doesn't compute."

 

[Moot]

Seriously? These young men will forever be tainted by allegations of RAPE.
Disgusting.

I dunno, they all seem to be doing quite well for themselves. One's even become a rape lawyer....

"....In 2014, Reade Seligmann joined the New Jersey law firm Connell Foley as an associate, after receiving his J.D. from Emory University School of Law.

The other two accused have since found jobs in finance: Collin Finnerty is an equity sales trader for Deutsche Bank in New York City, while David Evans is a senior associate at the consumer team at Apax Partners in New York...."

https://biglawbusiness.com/shaped-by-false-rape-case-former-duke-lacrosse-player-becomes-lawyer/​

 

[Acadia]

I dunno, they all seem to be doing quite well for themselves. One's even become a rape lawyer....

"....In 2014, Reade Seligmann joined the New Jersey law firm Connell Foley as an associate, after receiving his J.D. from Emory University School of Law.

The other two accused have since found jobs in finance: Collin Finnerty is an equity sales trader for Deutsche Bank in New York City, while David Evans is a senior associate at the consumer team at Apax Partners in New York...."

https://biglawbusiness.com/shaped-by-false-rape-case-former-duke-lacrosse-player-becomes-lawyer/​

You think there's some magic wand that a man can wave to take away the psychological pain of being called a predator?

 

[Moot]

You think there's some magic wand that a man can wave to take away the psychological pain of being called a predator?

Then surely you understand how Prof. Ford feels having to live with the psychological pain for the last thirty six years and all the while watching her alleged attacker rise to the tippy, tippy, top of government.

 

[Moot]

And that is exactly why she won’t get a hearing, and the me too movement is dead before it had a chance to start

It was a great idea...and had promise

But ruining a mans life....for spite? For payback?

Better to ruin one man's life than to let him ruin millions of others, imo.

And Ford will likely get a hearing because of the MeToo movement...and Trump.

I think Trump defending Kavanaugh will backfire because of his Access Hollywood tape, the Women's March, the MeToo movement and a majority of women voters that find his behaviour repulsive. In other words, he's the last person that should be defending Kavanaugh.

At this point, I'd be very surprised if Kavanaugh gets the votes.

 

[trouble13]

As I have seen posts that state she mentioned the incident to her therapist and husband 6 years ago, which if true cause me to believe this is not some last minute smear attempt.

I heard this too but heard tonight she did not name him as the person who assaulted her. So she had a repressed memory come back in 2012? But she did not know who it was. She only recently claimed she thinks it was him. Her claim is going to be very difficult to prove.

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