Karl Marx's Das Kapital

[Starvos]

You might want to do a head count....

I think you would be surprised.

The Soviet Union alone starved millions during the Holodormor. Not all were intentional but the numbers dwarf most of your examples combined. Then there are Mao Era slaughter. Last time I checked millions lost as well. Then there were the Killing fields. And just prior mass execution by the Viet Cong and to a lesser extent the NVA regulars.

I don't think the numbers are on your side.

It primarily depends on what criteria we're using for counting these deaths.
If blaming ideologies for the intentional deaths of X is what we're talking about, than intentional deaths under Capitalism far dwarf those of intentional deaths by Socialism.

As for the holodmor, there's no solid proof or evidence that it was man-made. No letters, documents, nothing.
I don't know what "Mao era slaughter" you're talking about. Are you refering to the classicide of the landlords and comprador class?
As for the cambodian genocide, that genocide was stopped by the communist Vietnamese government overthrowing pol pot and his gang of criminals.
I beleive you're refering to the massacre at hue? Yes, that was bad. But the atrocities comitted by the south vietnamese and american governments during that war dwarfed whatever the Vietcong did in retaliation.

 

[SirGareth]

These are only a couple of examples of US Imperialism. Deny this. I dare you.

Source: https://github.com/dessalines/essays/blob/master/us_atrocities.md#imperialism

I cannot endorse the CIA anymore than the KGB

However the USA is not "imperialist+ and you sound foolish in claiming it. Where is our empire? Do We have "US Indochina?" The US West Indies? India?

Yes we fight communism as we fight other criminal enterprises but not for land or possessions.

 

[Tanngrisnir]

You genuinely can't think of any examples of people being fatally exploited for profit? :lol:

Shhhhhh!!!! Don't bring up the British Empire or The Belgian Congo. Some people are just too sensitive to be exposed to history.

 

[Starvos]

I am aware of the anti-American propaganda campaign that Marxist have been waging for a great deal of time now. Oh and Cuba and Che have their own atrocities but hey this isnt a pissing contest. This is your thread where you get all propagandist about capitalism. Das kapitol is discredited by the fact that it violates sound science by using mental gymnastics to attack capitalism in order to introduce socialism as the replacement. Im sure that you are biting at the bit to release that 'unregulated capitalism' argument. Ill cut to the chase and point out that capitalism in America has never been unregulated. But I am sure that wont stop you from dragging out all of the bad things that have happened, and youll bend over backwards in trying to convince me that it was capitalism.

Then youll go on and on about how real communism has never existed. Then youll write off every bad socialist.communist regime as if they had nothing to do with Marx, Engles or Lenin any of those other fanatics. Then you will be overjoyed to tell me that Lenin was good and Stalin was bad. ANd if you are really getting into it you will go on about the teachings of Christ equals socialism and what not.

Then you will try every way that you can to talk bad about right leaning politics. Again Ill cut to the chase: the left and the right are not two separate villains in this story, they are both villains which depend on the others existence to validate their own existence. Two halves of the same rotten tomato.

So none of the things i've listed ever happened? I've given you sources and evidence and yet it's dismissed as "marxist propaganda". This is on par with holocaust denial.

I love how you predict my thought processes even though you don't even know me or what kind of socialist i am.

I've read the essential bits of Das Kapital. The majority of it attacks capitalism and promote marxist economics, nowhere does it even suggest socialism as a replacement. It's clear that you haven't read it, you've listened to people who have read it give their opinions about it.

Oh pulling the "That's not real capitalism" argument? Lol when the means of production are owned by the bourg, it's capitalism.

Real communism hasn't existed because a stateless, classless society hasn't existed.
Lol you have a very simplistic way of looking at things. Stalin and Mao weren't "Bad" neither were they saints either. They did great things for their people, but also made plenty of mistakes, such as the CPSU becoming too centeralized. But all of what your saying hints at a poor understanding of how the Soviet and Chineese governments worked, and how life was like.
Look up the first and second five year plans under the USSR and the historic life expectancy raises under Mao.

Your whole post was a series of strawmen.

By the way, Che Guevara was a hero and a great military strategist, it's why hes my avatar.
His crimes consist of overseeing the execution of 200 members of Batista's government, all guilty of criminal acts against the cuban people.

 

[Absentglare]

I find it ironic you partook in the capitalist system to get your books.

... why? The inventors of the first electronic calculator used slide rules to calculate the bias currents.

 

[Starvos]

I cannot endorse the CIA anymore than the KGB

However the USA is not "imperialist+ and you sound foolish in claiming it. Where is our empire? Do We have "US Indochina?" The US West Indies? India?

Yes we fight communism as we fight other criminal enterprises but not for land or possessions.

Imperialism manifests itself differently today than it did in the past.
Any government that starts nationalizing it's resources mysteriously gets overthrown by a US backed coup. It's happened over and over again to protect US corporate interests, the only reason the US fights communism is because a communist country is one less country US corporate interests can't exploit for profit.

 

[Starvos]

An unbiased site! It's an opinion piece.

It provides evidence and sources. That's an intellectually dishonest way to dismiss the crimes of the US .

 

[zyzygy]

It provides evidence and sources. That's an intellectually dishonest way to dismiss the crimes of the US .

There were more conspiracy theories there than you shake a stick at. And no links to evidence.

 

[SirGareth]

... why? The inventors of the first electronic calculator used slide rules to calculate the bias currents.

Yes I get it, the whippings will stop when the moral improves.

 

[Absentglare]

Yes I get it, the whippings will stop when the moral improves.

What? I don't understand.

There's nothing ironic about using an old tool to develop a better tool.

 

[Starvos]

There were more conspiracy theories there than you shake a stick at. And no links to evidence.

There's literally blue text with links to the sources/evidence on the site. Do you seriously think that the US never participated in these well-documented atrocities like the Bodo league massacre, or Reagan funding right-wing terrorists in Nicaragua?
Dismiss it as conspiracy all you want, but the facts are not on your side.

 

[<alt>doxygen]

Maybe try Piketty's book first.
https://www.amazon.com/Capital-Twenty-First-Century-Thomas-Piketty/dp/1491591617

I haven't finished it. It's good, but extremely dense. I would venture to say it's more relevant than Marx at this moment in history. Is there a country attempting actual Marxism today?

 

[Starvos]

Maybe try Piketty's book first.
https://www.amazon.com/Capital-Twenty-First-Century-Thomas-Piketty/dp/1491591617

I haven't finished it. It's good, but extremely dense. I would venture to say it's more relevant than Marx at this moment in history. Is there a country attempting actual Marxism today?

The only country with a Marxist economy is Cuba, but it's hard to measure their success due to the fact they've been under a US embargo for the past 50 years or so. But i'll check that book out

 

[Grand Mal]

The only country with a Marxist economy is Cuba, but it's hard to measure their success due to the fact they've been under a US embargo for the past 50 years or so. But i'll check that book out

One measure might be to compare the life of the average Cuban to the life of the average Jamaican or Dominican.
I won't cite Haiti, that'd be unfair.
I've toured Cuba. We sat on the deck of a paladare in Havana finishing the bottle of wine with a young architect who expounded, loudly, yards from a busy sidewalk, about how Cuba would improve when Fidel and Raul died. We also stayed in the old town of Trinidad with a black middle-aged woman who put her hand over her heart when she said, 'Che'. We never saw beggars, we never saw street prostitution, we never saw signs of drug trade, and this is us with a rented car and the run of the country. What we did see was a farmhouse, in the middle of nowhere, with the wall facing the road painted white and a big red cross on it. That's where a doctor had his clinic and anyone, including us, was welcome to stop there. We were there on Easter weekend and saw most of the town gathered while they carried icons out of the church and paraded them around town. Education is freely available, including housing for the duration. We saw kids, well-dressed and well-fed in the streets of the poorest sections, and going to school wearing uniforms.
I know the human rights failings of the Castro regime. I also know Cubans are WAY better off under the Castro regime than they were under Batista and his American masters.

 

[<alt>doxygen]

The only country with a Marxist economy is Cuba, but it's hard to measure their success due to the fact they've been under a US embargo for the past 50 years or so. But i'll check that book out

Cuba is a failed experiment, and they had decades of help from non-US powers. We here in the US treated them way too harshly for reasons that are absurd given Vietnam, China, etc.

 

[Fledermaus]

It primarily depends on what criteria we're using for counting these deaths.
If blaming ideologies for the intentional deaths of X is what we're talking about, than intentional deaths under Capitalism far dwarf those of intentional deaths by Socialism.

Stalin - 20 to 25 million deaths.
Mao - The 'Great Leap' 45 million.
Killing Fields - 1.7 million

That is within 50 years...

As for the holodmor, there's no solid proof or evidence that it was man-made. No letters, documents, nothing.

Incorrect. The evidence is copious the Soviet Union enforce export of grains from the Ukraine even though famine was widespread. Add to that the "collectivization" which is documented is part of the problem..

Holodomor: Memories of Ukraine's silent massacre - BBC News

I don't know what "Mao era slaughter" you're talking about. Are you refering to the classicide of the landlords and comprador class?

No comprende Great Leap?
Mao's Great Leap Forward 'killed 45 million in four years' | The Independent

As for the cambodian genocide, that genocide was stopped by the communist Vietnamese government overthrowing pol pot and his gang of criminals.

You misspelled 'General Secretary of the Communist Party of Kampuchea' and his Communist government.

I beleive you're refering to the massacre at hue? Yes, that was bad. But the atrocities comitted by the south vietnamese and american governments during that war dwarfed whatever the Vietcong did in retaliation.

Dwarfed?

There was Hue. And there was the massacre of Montenards, Việt Cộng death squads that slaughtered tens of thousands, the targeting of village and district heads... Mass murder campaign against civilian hamlets and refugee camps.

But, hey, what are tens of thousands killed by terrorists when the terrorists are Red?

 

[Starvos]

Cuba is a failed experiment, and they had decades of help from non-US powers. We here in the US treated them way too harshly for reasons that are absurd given Vietnam, China, etc.

I find that very hard to beleive that cuba is a "failed experiment" considering that cuba has the doctor to patient ratio in the world, has the most teachers per capita in the world, gave it's citizens access to healthcare for the first time in cuban history, increased the life expectancy from 58 to 78, has the lowest infant mortality rate in Latin america, literally exports doctors to other parts of the world, ended racism and sexism in Cuba, the list goes on and on.

 

[Fledermaus]

I find that very hard to beleive that cuba is a "failed experiment" considering that cuba has the doctor to patient ratio in the world, has the most teachers per capita in the world, gave it's citizens access to healthcare for the first time in cuban history, increased the life expectancy from 58 to 78, has the lowest infant mortality rate in Latin america, literally exports doctors to other parts of the world, ended racism and sexism in Cuba, the list goes on and on.

One wonders why hundreds of thousands of Cubans left Cuba....

 

[Starvos]

Stalin - 20 to 25 million deaths.
Mao - The 'Great Leap' 45 million.
Killing Fields - 1.7 million



Incorrect. The evidence is copious the Soviet Union enforce export of grains from the Ukraine even though famine was widespread. Add to that the "collectivization" which is documented is part of the problem..



No comprende Great Leap?
Mao's Great Leap Forward 'killed 45 million in four years' | The Independent



You misspelled 'General Secretary of the Communist Party of Kampuchea' and his Communist government.



Dwarfed?

There was Hue. And there was the massacre of Montenards, Việt Cộng death squads that slaughtered tens of thousands, the targeting of village and district heads... Mass murder campaign against civilian hamlets and refugee camps.

But, hey, what are tens of thousands killed by terrorists when the terrorists are Red?

American Capitalist Imperialism: 20 Million since WW2
British Capitalist Imperialism: 29 million Indians in the 19th century alone due to genocide

Absolutely incorrect. Collectivzation was due to private farms not producing enough food to feed the country
Yes, the government did export grain, but that was the only thing they could sell at the time in order to buy new farming equipment such as tractors.

Great leap forward? Poor economic planning and bad weather. No malevolent intent involved. Consdiering that Mao was responsible for the doubling of life expectancy, the ending of famines in China and the increasing of the population by 300+ million, I'd say that would make Mao one of the greatest humanitarians of all time.

Not an argument.

Freindly reminder that US forces used massive amounts of chemical weapons on Vietnamese civilians, routinely engaged in mass rape and committed horrible atrocities against the Vietnamese people. See My Lai massacre for just one example.

Let's also not forget the South Korean puppet regime and how they murdered 100,000 people on grounds of being "communists". See Bodo league massacre.

But I guess these aren't terrorists unless the terrorists do it with US support.
Now this can either continue to be a pissing contest, or we can just agree that the atrocities committed by both ideologies don't nessecarily discredit each ideology.

 

[Starvos]

One wonders why hundreds of thousands of Cubans left Cuba....

Because of poverty, duh.

 

[Fledermaus]

Because of poverty, duh.

What poverty? How would there be poverty in the workers paradise?

 

[Starvos]

What poverty? How would there be poverty in the workers paradise?

not wasting my time

 

[Desert Storm]

One wonders why hundreds of thousands of Cubans left Cuba....

And still want to.........

 

[Desert Storm]

Because of poverty, duh

And what causes their poverty??

More extreme socialism or commuism??

 

[Starvos]

And what causes their poverty??

More extreme socialism or commuism??

No.. Cuba is a small island nation which has been under the throes of a US blockade and embargo for the past 50 years.