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Kansas lawmakers jump-start debate over repealing tax break[W:262]

Re: Brownback Tax Cuts a bust...Kansas State Legislature now fixing to repeal

Obviously, everyone saw this coming. Sad thing is that Brownback is one of the many trickle-down supporters who is advising Trump. If he wants to do for the rest of the country what was done in Kansas, we're in big trouble.

From the AP by way of the Miami Herald:

Kansas lawmakers jump-start debate over repealing tax break


I simply do not understand why the Democrats did not make the recent failures of Kansas and the recent successes of California as part of their political platform. For all that talk about economic angst of the middle class, the divergent paths of those two states sure did provide examples of how conservative vs. liberal economic policies affect their respective citizens.
 
Re: Brownback Tax Cuts a bust...Kansas State Legislature now fixing to repeal

Some of us have also "done the walk" and one point of having debates like this is to learn something.

I haven't read any meta studies or a plethora of individual ones that make the claim you said is supported by the studies. Just for example, is a tax increase to fund new roads and improve schools in a community always a drag on the local economy versus an equivalent tax cut? I'm nearly (99.9% or so) sure the answer to that is no. It would be equally wrong to assert that each tax cut in the U.S. at the federal level will generate more economic return than the spending that must be cut to fund it, all the way to a tax rate of zero. Given that I'm nearly sure any study looking at spending versus tax cuts is HIGHLY specific about the conditions under which various options are preferred, and that you've misstated or oversimplified the conclusions, but we can't know that or even have an informed discussion without looking at your sources, which you won't provide.

1. Actually I like discussing things, when participants don't tell me about my not knowing my profession with a chip on their shoulders.

2. As to specificity, you are quite right. At one point, I believe in the thread, I described this briefly. Of course each fiscal activity does have a specific set of multipliers. And it is also quite true that most empirical research focus on a specific situations, though, not all analyse the mix in the same detail.

As to the "always" I would be happier with a "generally". It is so true that it is a rather robust rule that the government producing private goods will reduce the efficiency of the society compared to private production. It will generally be better than no production of the good. It isn't even totally true that taxes will "always" reduce efficiency. It is just the good rule. But to improve the negative impacts of external effects etc taxes can increase system efficiency for example.
 
Re: Brownback Tax Cuts a bust...Kansas State Legislature now fixing to repeal

Weren't Conservatives in control of the state at that time? In fact, didn't Snyder appoint a "special manager" to oversee the "failing" cities? How'd that work out? Not so great, unless you consider cutting pensions to librarians and shutting off people's water as a success.

The city was bankrupt and had to have an emergency manager appointed after over 50 years of Democrat control and you're blaming Gov. Snyder. :lol:
 
Re: Brownback Tax Cuts a bust...Kansas State Legislature now fixing to repeal

According to your link, CA is 4th. And looking deeper into your chart, CA ranks higher than Texas in Growth Prospects, and is pretty much even with Texas on Quality of Life.

As for poverty, yes, there is a lot of poverty in CA. Just like there's a lot of poverty everywhere. This is a consequence of supply-side economic theory that has become the conventional wisdom despite no measure of success.

Lol !! California supply side ?

You have no idea what Supply side is. To you its just a shot in the dark talking point.

You repeat it because youve been told that criticism of supply side is part of some intelligent economic discussion but in reality you have no idea what your'e talking about. Thousands of bussineses and millions of people have bailed out of California NOT because they adhere to supply side strategies.

But because its run by Progressives who think tax increases and draconian regulations is how you grow State economies

9000 Businesses leave Cali
https://www.google.com/amp/www.breitbart.com/california/2016/08/06/9000-companies-left-california-since-2008/amp/?client=ms-android-hms-tmobile-us

Tax cuts and a bussiness friendly environment leads to increased privatincreasedinvestment and that leads to job creation.

Progressivs think Stimulus leads to job creation and tax increases lead to budget supluses. They are the LAST people on earth who should be allowed to influence let alone implement econonic policy
 
Re: Brownback Tax Cuts a bust...Kansas State Legislature now fixing to repeal

I guess you don't have anything to add to the discussion of Kansas, the OP?

Sure, the point is that leftists keep holding up Brownback as everything that's wrong with conservative governing and continue to roll out the weakest examples. $342 million in a state with $150 billion gdp isn't that bad. Much of their loss in revenue is retail, is that Brownback's fault too? They have had a lot of new small businesses since Brownback became governor and those will take time to grow and become healthy contributors to the economy. The unemployment rate is low as well and if things were that bad, there wouldn't be jobs and people wouldn't be spending money.

My Detroit example illustrates a truly dysfunctional Democrat controlled government that is monumentally worse than the short term challenges that Kansas faces. If you want to hold Brownback up as a failure with his new businesses and low unemployment, look at the bleak and dire liberal alternative.
 
Re: Brownback Tax Cuts a bust...Kansas State Legislature now fixing to repeal

I simply do not understand why the Democrats did not make the recent failures of Kansas and the recent successes of California as part of their political platform. For all that talk about economic angst of the middle class, the divergent paths of those two states sure did provide examples of how conservative vs. liberal economic policies affect their respective citizens.

Because Kansas isn't a " failure " and California isn't a " success ". It would backfire in their slimey faces.

It would be similar to the Democrats bragging about how great ObamaCares become.

Americans would know that they're being fed propaganda, and that the Democrats were essentially talking down to them, patronizing them
 
Re: Brownback Tax Cuts a bust...Kansas State Legislature now fixing to repeal

Because Kansas isn't a " failure " and California isn't a " success ". It would backfire in their slimey faces.

That is a bald-faced lie.

It would be similar to the Democrats bragging about how great ObamaCares become.

Americans would know that they're being fed propaganda, and that the Democrats were essentially talking down to them, patronizing them

Pot, meet kettle.
 
Re: Brownback Tax Cuts a bust...Kansas State Legislature now fixing to repeal

I don't need to tell you how, you can just look at the poverty stats in 2016 vs. 1980 and see for yourself. Poverty has increased since the start of trickle-down despite all promises that it wouldn't.




Until Reagan took steps to undermine it, it worked very well. Particularly Medicare and Social Security. But both programs need to be expanded. Medicare needs to be the single payer, and Social Security benefits should be increased.

California has the highest poverty rate in the nation and they are not a trickle down economy. You blame everything on Republicans which is what a good little uneducated leftwing advocate would do. It does seem that personal responsibility doesn't exist in your world either so you rely on the govt. to handle your own social problems
 
Re: Brownback Tax Cuts a bust...Kansas State Legislature now fixing to repeal

a smaller version of what is going on with the federal government....way too many taxbreaks for the wealthy, corporations....

Yep, we cannot let anyone keep more of what they earn because the govt. needs it more to buy votes and keep power along with keeping people dependent
 
Re: Brownback Tax Cuts a bust...Kansas State Legislature now fixing to repeal

I simply do not understand why the Democrats did not make the recent failures of Kansas and the recent successes of California as part of their political platform. For all that talk about economic angst of the middle class, the divergent paths of those two states sure did provide examples of how conservative vs. liberal economic policies affect their respective citizens.

recent successes in California? You read the headlines and ignore the actual content of the article. California is over 400 billion dollars in debt but to you that is a success. How typical. Going to be a long four years for you
 
Re: Brownback Tax Cuts a bust...Kansas State Legislature now fixing to repeal

recent successes in California? You read the headlines and ignore the actual content of the article. California is over 400 billion dollars in debt but to you that is a success. How typical. Going to be a long four years for you

Don't let the facts get in your way. You've got bigger issues to deal with than the success of the most populated state in the nation.
 
Re: Brownback Tax Cuts a bust...Kansas State Legislature now fixing to repeal

That is a bald-faced lie.



Pot, meet kettle.

Because you say it is a lie? LOL, slightly liberal my ass. Over 400 billion in debt isn't a success except in the liberal world as it is too low
 
Re: Brownback Tax Cuts a bust...Kansas State Legislature now fixing to repeal

Don't let the facts get in your way. You've got bigger issues to deal with than the success of the most populated state in the nation.

You have posted no facts, I have, 400 billion in debt. In addition others have as well, thousands of businesses leaving the state and you call that a success? I couldn't care less about California as it buries itself and isn't going to get a federal taxpayer bailout like it would have with Hillary
 
Re: Brownback Tax Cuts a bust...Kansas State Legislature now fixing to repeal

Yep, we cannot let anyone keep more of what they earn because the govt. needs it more to buy votes and keep power along with keeping people dependent
bills have to be paid con, bills have to be paid...think about all that new defense spending trump and the republicans want, or do you propose running up the debt/deficit more?
 
Re: Brownback Tax Cuts a bust...Kansas State Legislature now fixing to repeal

bills have to be paid con, bills have to be paid...think about all that new defense spending trump and the republicans want, or do you propose running up the debt/deficit more?

Of course bills have to be paid but there are ways of doing that without raising taxes. Cut other expenses and stop spending money. Until the issue is explained and identified as to where the shortfall comes from why are you so interested in raising taxes?
 
Re: Brownback Tax Cuts a bust...Kansas State Legislature now fixing to repeal

Sure, the point is that leftists keep holding up Brownback as everything that's wrong with conservative governing and continue to roll out the weakest examples. $342 million in a state with $150 billion gdp isn't that bad.

But you're ignoring that they've faced years of shortfalls, obliterated their general fund ($700 million), relied nearly every year like they do with the current $342 million shortfall on eating their seed corn to make it from year to year, and there simply has NOT been the boost in economic growth the proponents of their trickle down tax experiment promised.

Much of their loss in revenue is retail, is that Brownback's fault too? They have had a lot of new small businesses since Brownback became governor and those will take time to grow and become healthy contributors to the economy. The unemployment rate is low as well and if things were that bad, there wouldn't be jobs and people wouldn't be spending money.

I'm not sure that's true about the 'retail' stuff, but if you want you can cite your sources for that. The personal income tax revenues fell off a cliff and haven't recovered, which is not a surprise since the tax plan exempted all income from pass through entities. And if you want to compare Kansas to surrounding states, and show that they're doing better post tax cut than their neighbors, be my guest, but you're just throwing stuff out there that has no basis in any evidence you can cite.

My Detroit example illustrates a truly dysfunctional Democrat controlled government that is monumentally worse than the short term challenges that Kansas faces. If you want to hold Brownback up as a failure with his new businesses and low unemployment, look at the bleak and dire liberal alternative.

Detroit is nothing but a red herring :roll:

I looked at business startups and among "small" states, Kansas is ranked 18/25. Not terrible, obviously, but not the kind of success I'd be bragging about if I'm defending Brownback's trickle down tax plan. For large states, liberal CA and NY rank 3 and 4 of 25, behind Texas and purple state FL. I don't see a very reliable correlation between tax rates and startups with those stats...

State Rankings | Kauffman.org
 
Re: Brownback Tax Cuts a bust...Kansas State Legislature now fixing to repeal

Because you say it is a lie? LOL, slightly liberal my ass. Over 400 billion in debt isn't a success except in the liberal world as it is too low

You have posted no facts, I have, 400 billion in debt. In addition others have as well, thousands of businesses leaving the state and you call that a success? I couldn't care less about California as it buries itself and isn't going to get a federal taxpayer bailout like it would have with Hillary

Prove that California "is $400 billion in debt." States aren't even allowed to go into debt. Meanwhile, you want some facts, here you go:

Jerry Brown: How the California Governor Turned Around the Golden State - Rolling Stone
 
Re: Brownback Tax Cuts a bust...Kansas State Legislature now fixing to repeal

Of course bills have to be paid but there are ways of doing that without raising taxes. Cut other expenses and stop spending money. Until the issue is explained and identified as to where the shortfall comes from why are you so interested in raising taxes?
sure sure con...take the money from those who can least afford it..gotcha, you havent changed my friend
 
Re: Brownback Tax Cuts a bust...Kansas State Legislature now fixing to repeal

The oilfield crash hurt Kansas more than anything. Raising during an economic slowdown is idiotic, at best. No wonder Libbos support doing that very thing.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/kansascity.relaymedia.com/amp/opinion/editorials/article50518955.html

Sheesh, so far we've seen retail sales, oil prices, and changes in federal tax law as excuses for why Laffer curve, trickle down, Kansas style hasn't worked except to produce near constant budget crises in the state. Wonder what's next?
 
Re: Brownback Tax Cuts a bust...Kansas State Legislature now fixing to repeal

Sheesh, so far we've seen retail sales, oil prices, and changes in federal tax law as excuses for why Laffer curve, trickle down, Kansas style hasn't worked except to produce near constant budget crises in the state. Wonder what's next?

It's how the economy works, my friend.
 
Re: Brownback Tax Cuts a bust...Kansas State Legislature now fixing to repeal

sure sure con...take the money from those who can least afford it..gotcha, you havent changed my friend

Aw, yes, starve some kids too. Don't you get tired of being lied to by the left. Where is the shortfall and why raise taxes to pay for it
 
Re: Brownback Tax Cuts a bust...Kansas State Legislature now fixing to repeal

1. Actually I like discussing things, when participants don't tell me about my not knowing my profession with a chip on their shoulders.

OK, understood, but it just is customary, common courtesy, to provide citations when asked if you're referencing the literature for your conclusions. That's especially true with discussions among other people at least familiar with the topic.
2. As to specificity, you are quite right. At one point, I believe in the thread, I described this briefly. Of course each fiscal activity does have a specific set of multipliers. And it is also quite true that most empirical research focus on a specific situations, though, not all analyse the mix in the same detail.

That's just another way of saying that the conclusions about the "tax or spend" question are highly facts and circumstances dependent, which is why it's obviously so critical to cite the actual studies.

As to the "always" I would be happier with a "generally". It is so true that it is a rather robust rule that the government producing private goods will reduce the efficiency of the society compared to private production. It will generally be better than no production of the good. It isn't even totally true that taxes will "always" reduce efficiency. It is just the good rule. But to improve the negative impacts of external effects etc taxes can increase system efficiency for example.

I just do not agree that it's a "rather robust rule" in anything but theory, as opposed to real world public policy choices. Just as an example, nearly every analysis of the benefits of tax cuts I've seen assumes that the benefits are maximized or even positive only when the tax cuts are offset at least in large part by spending cuts, but at the national level in the U.S., tax cuts are nearly always borrowed.

I don't endorse this paper in any way, but I do believe the people at Brookings are pretty honest shooters, and they find that the effect of taxes on GDP is quite small, and limited to certain types of tax cuts, and when at least mostly offset with spending cuts. That seems about right and consistent with most of the literature I've seen. The conclusions also ignore, as they must, equity effects, so even if a policy maximized growth if it also exacerbated already growing inequality, that policy might not be sustainable long term even IF it would maximized GDP - the political climate won't allow it.

In any event the point of citing papers is so others can read these sources and come to their own conclusions about how broad and narrow are the conclusions.
 
Re: Brownback Tax Cuts a bust...Kansas State Legislature now fixing to repeal

It's how the economy works, my friend.

I agree that taxes and changes in tax rates have a fairly minor role in economic growth, jobs, etc. Kansas is showing us that. Eliminating taxes on all pass through entities MIGHT indeed have a stimulative effect, but it is apparently swamped by oil prices, and other economic factors other than tax rates on 'small business.'
 
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