• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Judge orders Trump Accounts to hand over info to House!

LOL That does not bother you when you look for FISA violations. They only come from the most politically motivated and partisan politicians. Mueller is not partisan or politically motivated and he asked Congress to look into Trump's obstruction.

Mueller did not ask Congress to look into anything. Would you like me to paste the Conclusions from Mullers report?
 
All of the rights afforded citizens.
Which rights as a citizen does the President give up when taking office?
Which of our rights do you think makes us immune to legislative inquiry?
 
I believe anyone, including the President, has the right to appeal the result of any government action they believe has violated their Constitutional rights.
It's well established that you believe that.

However, the US Constitution specifically says that the power to determine if an impeachment is warranted lies "solely" with the Senate.
 
How do you interpret these words from the link to the decision you are talking about: "no judicial involvement, even for the limited purpose of judicial review"?


The language and structure of Art. I, § 3, cl. 6, demonstrate a textual commitment of impeachment to the Senate. Nixon's argument that the use of the word "try" in the Clause's first sentence impliedly requires a judicial-style trial by the full Senate that is subject to judicial review is rejected. The conclusion that "try" lacks sufficient precision to afford any judicially manageable standard of review is compelled by older and modern dictionary definitions, and is fortified by the existence of the three very specific requirements that the Clause's second and third sentences do impose-that the Senate's Members must be under oath or affirmation, that a two-thirds vote is required to convict, and that the Chief Justice presides when the President is tried-the precise nature of which suggests that the Framers did not intend to impose additional limitations on the form of the Senate proceedings. The Clause's first sentence must instead be read as a grant of authority to the Senate to determine whether an individual should be acquitted or convicted, and the commonsense and dictionary meanings of the word "sole" indicate that this authority is reposed in the Senate alone. Nixon's attempts to negate the significance of "sole" are unavailing, while his alternative reading of the word as requiring impeachment only by the full Senate is unnatural and would impose on the Senate additional procedural requirements that would be inconsistent with the three express limitations that the Clause sets out. A review of the Constitutional Convention's history and the contemporary commentary supports a reading of the constitutional language as deliberately placing the impeachment power in the Legislature, with no judicial involvement, even for the limited purpose of judicial review.​

I have not questioned the right of the Legislature to Impeach.

Do you believe there is no Constitutional protection afforded a citizen when the basis upon which Impeachment was undertaken did not meet the standards of the process, and therefore could be ruled un-Constitutional?
 
Mueller did not ask Congress to look into anything. Would you like me to paste the Conclusions from Mullers report?

So you did not read the report then.....Here, I'll fix that for you. Barr's "conclusions" are strictly between him and Trump and have nothing to do with what Mueller wrote

The report indicated that Mueller decided earlier in his investigation that he would not make a specific decision about obstruction charges and would, instead, defer to lawmakers.

"We determined not to apply an approach that could potentially result in a judgment that the President committed crimes," the report said. Because Justice Department policy holds that a sitting president can't be subject to trial, an accusation of criminal conduct would put a president in limbo, under a cloud, but unable to clear himself, he wrote.

That problem doesn't apply to congressional proceedings, Mueller wrote, and Congress has full power to judge the president's conduct.

Even if a president exercised powers that came with his office, "Congress has authority to prohibit a President's corrupt use of his authority in order to protect the integrity of the administration of justice," he wrote.


Mueller did not express an opinion on whether the evidence would add up to an impeachable offense but noted that "the conclusion that Congress may apply the obstruction laws to the president's corrupt exercise of the powers of office accords with our constitutional system of checks and balances and the principle that no person is above the law."

Mueller report suggests Congress should judge whether Trump obstructed justice - Los Angeles Times
 
I have not questioned the right of the Legislature to Impeach.
Do you believe there is no Constitutional protection afforded a citizen when the basis upon which Impeachment was undertaken did not meet the standards of the process, and therefore could be ruled un-Constitutional?

The post you are replying to specifically says that there is no judicial review of impeachment.

I have been unable to find any Constitutional protection against the Senate's decision that an impeachment is warranted.

I have found evidence that the Senate has the sole power to determine if impeachment is warranted.

So, yeah, until I see evidence otherwise, I believe that the Senate has the sole power to determine if an impeachment is warranted.

If the SCotUS had the power to determine if an impeachment is warranted, then the Constitution would say something different than only the Senate has the power.

Where is the evidence that impeachment is reviewable (judicially or otherwise).
 
Iirc, there'd be impeachment investigations to gather evidence ahead of time before the impeachment proceedings.

It seems like they could use those investigations to gather evidence.
ymmv

Congress has broad powers to investigate. It does not have the power to violate a citizens Constitutional rights.


The Constitution protects citizens from government actions involving unreasonable search and seizure among other things.

The President apparently plans to appeal the decision by the Obama Judge.

On what basis do you think they are going to make that appeal?
 
Congress has broad powers to investigate. It does not have the power to violate a citizens Constitutional rights.
The Constitution protects citizens from government actions involving unreasonable search and seizure among other things.
The President apparently plans to appeal the decision by the Obama Judge.
On what basis do you think they are going to make that appeal?
Something similar to their previous argument probably.
What basis do you think they will use?

to wit:

"President Trump and his associated entities are before this court, claiming that the Oversight Committee’s subpoena to Mazars exceeds the Committee’s constitutional power to conduct investigations. The President argues that there is no legislative purpose for the subpoena. The Oversight Committee’s true motive, the President insists, is to collect personal information about him solely for political advantage. He asks the court to declare the Mazars subpoena invalid and unenforceable."​

They seem totally oblivious to your suggestion that the Fourth Amendment applies here.

Maybe drop them a helpful email about it?
 
It's well established that you believe that.

However, the US Constitution specifically says that the power to determine if an impeachment is warranted lies "solely" with the Senate.

I'm not disputing that. Impeachment is a two step process involving the House and Senate. I have not suggested Congress, or even the House, does not have the right to Impeach. In fact, I would like the House to start proceeding immediately.

I'm referring to Constitutional protections against Impeachment that was reached by un-Constitutional means.
 
I have not questioned the right of the Legislature to Impeach.

Do you believe there is no Constitutional protection afforded a citizen when the basis upon which Impeachment was undertaken did not meet the standards of the process, and therefore could be ruled un-Constitutional?

Here's one for you. If Trump is proven to have laundered money for the Russians before and while he was President, do you think he should be removed from office?

Also do you believe the protections of the Constitution are meant to protect criminals from the law?
 
The post you are replying to specifically says that there is no judicial review of impeachment.

I have been unable to find any Constitutional protection against the Senate's decision that an impeachment is warranted.

I have found evidence that the Senate has the sole power to determine if impeachment is warranted.

So, yeah, until I see evidence otherwise, I believe that the Senate has the sole power to determine if an impeachment is warranted.

If the SCotUS had the power to determine if an impeachment is warranted, then the Constitution would say something different than only the Senate has the power.

Where is the evidence that impeachment is reviewable (judicially or otherwise).


Congress can decide whatever they want. There is nothing stopping them from Impeaching the President. However, there are Constitutional protections if that process was based on a process that was un-Constitutional.

For example, Congress could successfully vote to Impeach the President simply because it was Monday, and they just hate the President.

Do you think that basis would stand up to a Constitutional test?
 
I'm not disputing that. Impeachment is a two step process involving the House and Senate. I have not suggested Congress, or even the House, does not have the right to Impeach. In fact, I would like the House to start proceeding immediately.
I'm referring to Constitutional protections against Impeachment that was reached by un-Constitutional means.

If the Senate and only the Senate has the power to decide if an impeachment is warranted, how can any other body which lacks the power to determine if an impeachment is warranted going to gainsay the sole authority to determine if the impeachment is warranted?

Only the Senate can make the determination.

Only. The. Senate.
Only.

no one else

no judicial review


the judiciary is not the Senate
the Senate is the only body with the power
 
Congress can decide whatever they want. There is nothing stopping them from Impeaching the President. However, there are Constitutional protections if that process was based on a process that was un-Constitutional.
For example, Congress could successfully vote to Impeach the President simply because it was Monday, and they just hate the President.
Do you think that basis would stand up to a Constitutional test?

Yes.

Because the Constitutional test is whether or not the Senate voted to impeach.
The Senate has the sole authority to determine if impeachment is warranted.
Therefore, if the Senate has voted to impeach, then the impeachment passes the Constitutional test.
 
Something similar to their previous argument probably.
What basis do you think they will use?

to wit:

"President Trump and his associated entities are before this court, claiming that the Oversight Committee’s subpoena to Mazars exceeds the Committee’s constitutional power to conduct investigations. The President argues that there is no legislative purpose for the subpoena. The Oversight Committee’s true motive, the President insists, is to collect personal information about him solely for political advantage. He asks the court to declare the Mazars subpoena invalid and unenforceable."​

They seem totally oblivious to your suggestion that the Fourth Amendment applies here.

Maybe drop them a helpful email about it?

Your post is from the argument they made before the Obama Judge.

The issue is beyond that, at this point.

I don't think the highly talented Lawyer's for the President need any input from me.
 
Here's one for you. If Trump is proven to have laundered money for the Russians before and while he was President, do you think he should be removed from office?

Also do you believe the protections of the Constitution are meant to protect criminals from the law?

Laundering money for a foreign country would likely be considered high crimes, so I think that would fall into the area where impeachment would be warranted.
 
No proof of Treason, Bribery, or other High Crimes and Misdemeanors.

Detail how Impeachment could stand if there was no proof of any of the above.

Who defines high crimes and misdemeanors?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
If the Senate and only the Senate has the power to decide if an impeachment is warranted, how can any other body which lacks the power to determine if an impeachment is warranted going to gainsay the sole authority to determine if the impeachment is warranted?

Only the Senate can make the determination.

Only. The. Senate.
Only.

no one else

no judicial review


the judiciary is not the Senate
the Senate is the only body with the power

No government body is above the Constitution. Not one. Ever.
 
Yes.

Because the Constitutional test is whether or not the Senate voted to impeach.
The Senate has the sole authority to determine if impeachment is warranted.
Therefore, if the Senate has voted to impeach, then the impeachment passes the Constitutional test.

What protections does a citizen have from corrupt actions of the Senate?
 
I believe anyone, including the President, has the right to appeal the result of any government action they believe has violated their Constitutional rights.

Your belief is contradicted by the constitution itself...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Are you familiar with the case of Judge Nixon? It's the unanimous SCOTUS decision that impeachments are not justiciable, and therefore non-reviewable.
....
What I suggest you do, rather than blindly assert and hypothesize, is research the matter and come back with the relevant case-law and precedences supporting your assertions (as I have done).
Boy to I wish that was the norm and not the exception! Well said, my friend. That is a mike-drop moment.
 
Who defines high crimes and misdemeanors?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I suppose some are codified. Likely it would be subjective and open to argument. Another one of those "depends on the definition of is" kind of things.
 
Congress has broad powers to investigate. It does not have the power to violate a citizens Constitutional rights.


The Constitution protects citizens from government actions involving unreasonable search and seizure among other things.

The President apparently plans to appeal the decision by the Obama Judge.

On what basis do you think they are going to make that appeal?

Of all the congressional subpoenas issued since 1880, can you cite ONE that was blocked by an appeals court or the Supreme Court?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Back
Top Bottom