Jesus on the Cross

[Skeptic Bob]

How many offered themselves to go through that kind of torture, I wonder?

I don't know, but over the centuries I have no doubt it has happened. We know of soldiers and even people on the street who have given their life to save a friend or even someone they don't know. I am no fan of McCain as a politician but because of how important his family was the Vietcong offered to allow him to return home. Instead, out of solidarity for his compatriots, he remained in a place where he was subject to torture, misery, and mock executions. Minute per minute his torture certainly wasn't as bad as crucifixion but it was a LOT longer. And he endured it willingly.

How many rich and powerful men had offered themselves to suffer and die for what could be insignificant people (compared to their status)? Would a someone like Bill gates offer to die for a homeless man?

Especially if those people were rebellious against the powerful, rich man? Had caused the rich and powerful man such grief - repeatedly? Betrayed him repeatedly - the pain of the betrayal He compared to the pain felt by one whose spouse had committed adultery?

And here we're not talking about merely a rich and powerful person. We're talking about a God who need not have to go through all that. With a wave of His hand all His creation can be erased - and He would've had a clean slate to start all over again.

But instead, He chose to feel the pain, to suffer and die to save mankind.

OK, let's put ourselves in his place. It turns out everyone on earth is going to burn in hell for all eternity. Everyone. That includes everyone you have ever known and loved. Your mom. Every little child running around, including your own if you have them. Billions of people. BUT, if you allow yourself to get 39 lashes (and yes, they will rip the skin from your back) and then allow yourself to be nailed to a cross for six hours until you die, every single one of those people will be offered a get out of hell free card if they want it. And on top of that, you will become the King of Heaven and will have billions of people worship you for millennia to come.

That was the choice Jesus had. Hell, I would take that offer even without the whole King of Heaven thing just to save my child. I certainly would do it to save all of humanity. I am sure there are plenty of people who wouldn't do it but I think a significant percentage of the people would.

 

[Radical]

If Jesus is an incarnation of God, who cannot die, what is the religious significance of Jesus being crucified? If Jesus was a man, and not God in disguise, would his crucifixion have the same meaning?

God submitted himself unto death. God did die. Well, the second person of the one God died. The first person then resurrected the second person. The significance is that the second person also submitted himself to the form of man. And so since that second person was sinless man, he could take the consequence of sinful man. So when Jesus died, which was our consequence, it was lifted from ourselves. Furthermore, death never had true authority over him, he simply submitted to it for our benefit. He was resurrected. Now the consequence of death is removed from man and we will also be resurrected (all of us, righteous and unrighteous).

If Jesus was not God, but only man, he wouldn't have been sinless. "Perfect man" could not have been naturally born. His death would have been only as meaningful as our deaths. There would be no redemption.

 

[tosca1]

I don't know, but over the centuries I have no doubt it has happened. We know of soldiers and even people on the street who have given their life to save a friend or even someone they don't know. I am no fan of McCain as a politician but because of how important his family was the Vietcong offered to allow him to return home. Instead, out of solidarity for his compatriots, he remained in a place where he was subject to torture, misery, and mock executions. Minute per minute his torture certainly wasn't as bad as crucifixion but it was a LOT longer. And he endured it willingly.

out of solidarity for his compatriots, - brotherhood is a strong, compelling reason. That was also war.
No doubt so many had willingly endured torture and death for love of country. For the sake of an officer, or comrade, or civilian(s). That's part of being a soldier.
The consequences are tangible. The nation and its citizens are taken. They lose their freedom. Or, the nation is shamed, and looses some if its esteemed power in the eyes of other nations. Losers in wars pay a price (whatever that price may be).


I can only think of people like Bill Gates as an analogy to someone with power (and he wouldn't even come close to the power that God wields) - I mean....how can one find an analogous human being to the CREATOR?


Would someone like him offer to die for people he doesn't know, that live across the world - in peacetime?
As God had come down from Heaven to earth to die for people who kept betraying or going against God - would someone like Bill Gates go to Syria (as an example) and offer himself to die for Muslims?
That is the closest analogy I could think of when it comes to the deed.


Those heroic deeds by people like McCain are not comparable with the crucifixion of Jesus.
McCain has his own personal reasons for doing what he did. And you said it: solidarity (which I think is only one of the reasons he did what he did). They face the one same enemy - they're all fighting for homeland.

How will it look like if he got off scot-free due to the influence of his family? Protests against the inequality of men being drafted in that war was really going on. People were pointing out that rich men's sons were being protected from going into war! Perhaps McCain - who seems to be an honorable man at heart - was also thinking about what that would do to soldiers' morale! There's so much that could be at stake. The consequences were tangible!



That scenario isn't comparable at all with the sacrifices made by Jesus.
He endured death to give access to eternal life - and to give the required appeasement to the wrath of Someone that a lot of people don't even believe exist!

A lot of those people didn't even believe what He was saying about Himself!

 

[tosca1]

OK, let's put ourselves in his place. It turns out everyone on earth is going to burn in hell for all eternity. Everyone. That includes everyone you have ever known and loved. Your mom. Every little child running around, including your own if you have them. Billions of people. BUT, if you allow yourself to get 39 lashes (and yes, they will rip the skin from your back) and then allow yourself to be nailed to a cross for six hours until you die, every single one of those people will be offered a get out of hell free card if they want it. And on top of that, you will become the King of Heaven and will have billions of people worship you for millennia to come.

That was the choice Jesus had. Hell, I would take that offer even without the whole King of Heaven thing just to save my child. I certainly would do it to save all of humanity. I am sure there are plenty of people who wouldn't do it but I think a significant percentage of the people would.

How can you put ourselves in His place? For one thing, you aren't God! And that's what Jesus is -
God INCARNATE!

 

[Skeptic Bob]

How can you put ourselves in His place? For one thing, you aren't God! And that's what Jesus is -
God INCARNATE!

Which would make the whole ordeal infinitely more difficult for us mere mortals.

 

[tosca1]

Which would make the whole ordeal infinitely more difficult for us mere mortals.

Now I'm lost. What's your point?

Remember that Jesus was wholly man. He felt every bit as any man would've. I'm referring to your statement about putting ourselves in Jesus' place - and that you said Jesus had a choice.

The choice was for God to make. Either redeem us, or let us all die.
That's the only choice as far as I can see.

God had chosen to redeem us, therefore He'd sent The Word (also known as Jesus) to suffer and die for us.
Not only did God show us that He loves us so, but He also showed an example of obedience to God's will.

Jesus (in the garden of Getsamane) was feeling the same anxiety of anyone who would've been in such situation - knowing of his impending suffering and death.


Luke 22
42 “Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done.”

43 An angel from heaven appeared to him and strengthened him.

44 And being in anguish, he prayed more earnestly, and his sweat was like drops of blood falling to the ground.


Yet, Jesus still proceeded to do what He came to do.

 

[Amadeus]

I know, I know... you don't believe a word of it. That's fine; I didn't write it in any anticipation that you would.

It's not a matter of believing it, but being able to discuss it. It was an interesting read, and I appreciate your effort, but there's nothing I can agree or disagree with. And there are a few contradictions regarding God's omnipotence in your explanation. If God is all-powerful, then he can surely present himself to Moses in a comprehensible form. He doesn't need to overwhelm him.

What you present is a God who is so powerful that he cannot truly interact with his own creations without a degree of awkwardness. Which, while impressive, speaks more to God's limitations than his omnipotence.

You also speak about God as though he is a linear being, subject to the passage of time, something I've touched on in the past.

Had something to say; said it.

And thank you.

 

[tosca1]

If God is all-powerful, then he can surely present himself to Moses in a comprehensible form. He doesn't need to overwhelm him.

What you present is a God who is so powerful that he cannot truly interact with his own creations without a degree of awkwardness. Which, while impressive, speaks more to God's limitations than his omnipotence.

That He didn't present Himself the way you think He should've presented Himself, does not make Him any less powerful!



Being all-powerful, He can do anything He wants! He doesn't requite anyone's approval, or validation!
He does not have to answer to anyone!

He's got UNLIMITED AUTHORITY! UNLIMITED POWER! That's what omnipotence means!

He can present Himself to Moses in any incomprehensible way imaginable - it's not for mere creation such as us to say what He ought to have done!


No, omnipotence does not require interaction skills.
There DOES NOT HAVE TO BE ANY RULES TO BE FOLLOWED BY SOMEONE WHO'S OMNIPOTENT!
The Omnipotent may choose to interact, or He may not. That's the prerogatiove of Someone who has the ultimate power and authority! He can do anything He pleases - even if it's most despicable in our view, that wouldn't matter.



We're fortunate God is Him.

Imagine if God happens not to have the traits that He has, but the opposite! Then, we'll really have something to groan about - that is, if we ever even manage to survive him! Or for creation to even make it this far!
Perhaps the end of the line would've been with Adam and Eve - terminated on the spot!

 

[tosca1]

Omnipotence has limits. For example, God cannot create a greater God. Or a thousand greater Gods. Therein lies the paradox of omnipotence.

No limit!

If an omnipotent would want to create someone greater than him, of course he can.
But what omnipotent would want to do that?

Think of it this way, what dictator would put someone in power that would have more power than him?

Would you create someone who can do you in? That's silly.


So, no....there is no paradox!

 

[Amadeus]

No limit!

If an omnipotent would want to create someone greater than him, of course he can.
But what omnipotent would want to do that?

Think of it this way, what dictator would put someone in power that would have more power than him?

Would you create someone who can do you in? That's silly.


So, no....there is no paradox!

Not sure why you would be comparing God to a dictator. And I disagree that there isn't a paradox.

 

[countryboy]

My finding is that Jesus was not God and Jesus was just an exceptional Man who delivered a message from God along with a very vivid example for that message.

The Gospel texts has the info in the text that Jesus was resuscitated by the spear into His side which drained fluid off of His lungs (and maybe off of His heart) and they took down the body where He laid for three days to recover before He got up again, then a short time later He still died of the massive injuries.

The Bible tells us that He lived another 40 days but surely that is exaggerated.

If Jesus had been some God that could not die then the entire crucifixion was just a charade and meaningless.

So, in other words, you prefer to engage in wild speculation rather than what Scripture actually says.

 

[countryboy]

Either Jesus was a divine being or he wasn't. He cannot be both and neither.

Honestly, if you don't believe the Bible, what is the purpose of this discussion?

 

[tosca1]

Not sure why you would be comparing God to a dictator. And I disagree that there isn't a paradox.

To give a clearer perspective. To put the so-called paradox in context. It's hard for some to get a clear understanding of what omnipotence actually entails - the closest I can come up with (that we can relate with) would be to use a dictator for comparison.

 

[tosca1]

Not sure why you would be comparing God to a dictator. And I disagree that there isn't a paradox.

So explain why - despite that explanation - you insist there is a paradox.

 

[Amadeus]

So explain why - despite that explanation - you insist there is a paradox.

If God is a dictator, it lessens the paradox. But I'm not sure why you'd want to go there and make that comparison. It's true that dictators do not want to share power.

If God isn't a dictator, then creating a better version of himself with greater power would be beneficial. What he should do is make the most perfect version of himself, right off the bat. But then that starts a new paradox.

 

[phattonez]

If God isn't a dictator, then creating a better version of himself with greater power would be beneficial. What he should do is make the most perfect version of himself, right off the bat. But then that starts a new paradox.

What is better than perfect?

 

[Amadeus]

What is better than perfect?

If God is perfect, what is the purpose of Jesus? Jesus served as a corrective mechanism to reform God's outdated commandments/decrees.

 

[phattonez]

If God is perfect, what is the purpose of Jesus? Jesus served as a corrective mechanism to reform God's outdated commandments/decrees.

What needed reform was the people, not God. The Jews had not received the fullness of revelation. That came only with Jesus. The Jews were given only a glimpse and were to spread that over the world. They did not.

 

[Amadeus]

What needed reform was the people, not God. The Jews had not received the fullness of revelation. That came only with Jesus. The Jews were given only a glimpse and were to spread that over the world. They did not.

The Ten Commandments are not relevant with Christianity, and yet those were the laws God chose to present to Moses for man to live by.

 

[Logicman]

If God is perfect, what is the purpose of Jesus? Jesus served as a corrective mechanism to reform God's outdated commandments/decrees.

You can't have free will in man and create a perfect world, because somebody's going to really screw things up, which is the history of this world.

Regarding 'outdated' commandments & decrees, the Moral Laws have never changed. Adultery, thievery, idolatry, gay sex sin, and murder still remain sins, and are hardly outdated.

 

[phattonez]

The Ten Commandments are not relevant with Christianity, and yet those were the laws God chose to present to Moses for man to live by.

The Ten Commandments are absolutely relevant to Christianity. What are you talking about?

 

[Amadeus]

The Ten Commandments are absolutely relevant to Christianity. What are you talking about?

Really? That opens up a can of worms, since a few of the Ten Commandments require punishment by death.

 

[phattonez]

Really? That opens up a can of worms, since a few of the Ten Commandments require punishment by death.

The moral truths contained in the Ten Commandments have not changed. And the punishment for breaking any of them is death: eternal death.

 

[Amadeus]

The moral truths contained in the Ten Commandments have not changed. And the punishment for breaking any of them is death: eternal death.

You mean eternal life.

 

[tosca1]

Let's go back to this one:

Originally Posted by Amadeus View Post
Omnipotence has limits. For example, God cannot create a greater God. Or a thousand greater Gods. Therein lies the paradox of omnipotence.

How do you know God cannot create a greater god? Or a thousand greater gods?

That God did not create a greater god or thousands greater gods, does not mean, He cannot.

So....that's a major flaw in your argument.