Jesus is the one true God?

[ludin]

The point is you don't get to dismiss opinions with which you disagree on a public internet forum.
A self-evident point, really, one would have thought.

actually I can and I did have a nice day this is my last response to you.

 

[AntiTheist]

I have never heard a Christian say Jesus isn't God. I'm not sure what denomination that would be.

That would be Unitarianism, or nontrinitarianism.
Jehovah's witnesses are a nontrinitarian denomination and as such do not believe Jesus is God.

They consider themselves to be the real Christians. Their beliefs are solely derived from the Bible, or so they claim.

 

[AntiTheist]

actually I can and I did have a nice day this is my last response to you.

It's wonderful that you did have a nice day. I hope the same happens tomorrow.
What will remain the same, though, is the fact you're in no position to dismiss the opinions of others, at least not in any meaningful impactful way.

 

[MrPeanut]

Most of them.

John 3:16 is generally the most famous Christian refrain, and it clearly draws the distinction.

There is a distinction in the Bible in multiple passages, but I still haven't heard a Christian say Jesus isn't God. I mean other than Mormon or JW which I have only learned about here.

 

[ludin]

I was actually in a discussion about this the other day with a devout Christian who argues that I am going to hell for not believing that Jesus is the one true God, and because my Catholicism is just idol worship.

That latter point is for another thread, but it doesn't confuse me how a Christian can read the New Testament and see Jesus almost unceasingly speak of himself as the son of God, and pray to God on behalf of sinners, and conclude from that that Jesus is God.

Catholics believe in the Holy Trinity, the father, the son and the holy spirit -- the latter often described as the living love of God and Jesus for humanity -- so we definitely see Jesus and God a different beings.

https://www.gotquestions.org/is-Jesus-God.html

There are some different theological differences between Catholics and protestants but their core theology is the same.
that is who Christ is
and what Christ did.

 

[RAMOSS]

Do you think any Jews would worship the Messiah as God? Would the Messiah be God or claim to be God?

That, actually , would be against the Jewish religion.

 

[Sherman123]

Do you think any Jews would worship the Messiah as God? Would the Messiah be God or claim to be God?

No, never. That is forbidden.

 

[Sherman123]

I am sure there is some ceremonial sacrifices however sacrifice for the forgiveness of sin was set down by Moses and his Sons and before that I believe it was Abraham and Aaron who would make sacrifices for the sins of the people.

Most sacrifices were not sin offerings, nor were sin offerings ever mandatory for the forgiveness of sin. Nor can I think of any 'sin offerings' Abraham offered in the Torah. Further, the sin offerings were rare as they only applied to unintentional sins and were only applicable to a narrow range of persons and only were performed along with the core means of atonement: prayer.

Here is a small list of things we offered korban (sacrifices) for:

1. First Fruits on the holiday of Shavuot.
2. Temple tax - The half-shekel tax for Temple needs.
3. Voluntary offerings, peace offerings and a variety of other voluntary and donative offerings.
4. Semicha (laying on hands) of sacrificial animals for sacrifices they were not required to perform (Berachot 19a).
5. Women could slaughter their sacrificial animals themselves if they wished.
6. The offerings following childbirth as described in the Book of Leviticus, 12
7. Thank offering and its accompanying meal offering following recovery from illness or danger.
8. The Passover sacrifice on Passover.
9. Offerings relevant to fulfillment of, or transgression of, the Nazirite vow.
10. Offerings following cure from certain diseases and unusual bodily discharges.
11. Parah Adumah (ritual purification of the priests, and no impurity has nothing to do with 'sin')
12. Zevach Sh'lamim (the peace and thanksgiving offering to HaShem)
13. Olah, the most common sacrifice by far, was a means of showing submission to HaShem and his will.

And many more.

Very few sacrifices were chatat (sin offerings). But this is a common misconception with some Christians and I don't blame you for not knowing it.

 

[jmotivator]

There is a distinction in the Bible in multiple passages, but I still haven't heard a Christian say Jesus isn't God. I mean other than Mormon or JW which I have only learned about here.

I don't think that most Christians sects see the need to spell out what is obvious in the text. Jesus is God's word made flesh. Believing in Jesus is, therefore, a belief in God and God's word. Somewhere along the line some Christian sects have seen that as meaning that Jesus is God, rather than the path to salvation in God.

 

[nota bene]

I don't think that most Christians sects see the need to spell out what is obvious in the text. Jesus is God's word made flesh. Believing in Jesus is, therefore, a belief in God and God's word. Somewhere along the line some Christian sects have seen that as meaning that Jesus is God, rather than the path to salvation in God.

Yes. John 14:6 King James Version (KJV):

6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+14:6&version=KJV

 

[SheWolf]

No, never. That is forbidden.

Do you know if the disciples of Jesus worship him as God? If they believed he was the Messiah then they wouldn't have worshipped him either.

 

[Sherman123]

Do you know if the disciples of Jesus worship him as God? If they believed he was the Messiah then they wouldn't have worshipped him either.

I don't know I'm not Christian. But the New Testament seems to indicate that they very much believed he was God, and virtually all Christians (some Unitarians excepting) also believe it.

 

[RAMOSS]

Do you know if the disciples of Jesus worship him as God? If they believed he was the Messiah then they wouldn't have worshipped him either.

One early Christian group, the ebonites, did not consider Jesus to be divine. That appears to have been brought in with Gentile converts into the religion. Considering the only source we have for what the disciples believed came decades after the death of the disciples, and not from them, it is impossible to narrow down what the disciples actually DID believe.

 

[laska]

Well, he made that claim, and then what he did is he stole sheep from other churches.

Do you believe Moses was stealing when he did as God commanded and shared his revealed knowledge with the Israelites, many of whom seemed to have been converted to worshiping a golden calf? So if God shared knowledge with Joseph, and was told to share it with the world, and some believe, he's stealing? He's breaking one of the 10 commandments even if God revealed it to him and told him to share it with the world?

So if a group is really evil, and God loving His wayward children and knows they are in for an eternity of misery unless they change, sends a prophet to them to warn them what they are doing is wrong and tries to show them the path to eternal joy, this is stealing from the evil group? Just speaking words and allowing them the free agency and freedom of conscious to choose?

I've never thought of someone converting a LDS member as stealing. Now if they kidnapped them and forced them, yeah. But if they hear different points of view and choose a different path, that's them freely deciding what to believe. And i would be against any religious leader or government that restricted freedom of expression and conscious. Corrupt priestcraft tends to want to restrict access to a free flow of knowledge. Truth can stand up in any free market of ideas independently and confidently.

 

[RAMOSS]

Do you believe Moses was stealing when he did as God commanded and shared his revealed knowledge with the Israelites, many of whom seemed to have been converted to worshiping a golden calf? So if God shared knowledge with Joseph, and was told to share it with the world, and some believe, he's stealing? He's breaking one of the 10 commandments even if God revealed it to him and told him to share it with the world?

So if a group is really evil, and God loving His wayward children and knows they are in for an eternity of misery unless they change, sends a prophet to them to warn them what they are doing is wrong and tries to show them the path to eternal joy, this is stealing from the evil group? Just speaking words and allowing them the free agency and freedom of conscious to choose?

I've never thought of someone converting a LDS member as stealing. Now if they kidnapped them and forced them, yeah. But if they hear different points of view and choose a different path, that's them freely deciding what to believe. And i would be against any religious leader or government that restricted freedom of expression and conscious. Corrupt priestcraft tends to want to restrict access to a free flow of knowledge. Truth can stand up in any free market of ideas independently and confidently.

I do not see what that has to do with anything what so ever. It appears to be bringing in straw men, and making all sorts of odd claims and attacks for things that have nothing to do with anything what so ever.

 

[laska]

Do you think any Jews would worship the Messiah as God? Would the Messiah be God or claim to be God?

I don't think Christ's disciples were taught to worship Christ but to pray and worship Heavenly Father, who is the one God and above all. Jesus Christ is our eldest brother, the mediator between man and God, and He performed the Atonement for mankind, so He is the Savior of mankind. There is such a high esteem for Christ that maybe you can call it a form of worship but never did Christ tell His disciples to pray to Him but always to Heavenly Father. He was always clear the Father was greater than Him. Are there modern day Christian sects that may blur the line and call Jesus the Father, yes. But imho the New Testament does not teach this. The Church found in the NT worshiped God the Father, but also loved and esteemed very highly the Son, who is their Savior. They pray to God the Father in the name of the Son.

 

[laska]

I do not see what that has to do with anything what so ever. It appears to be bringing in straw men, and making all sorts of odd claims and attacks for things that have nothing to do with anything what so ever.

You should know by now I am a honest debater and do not do strawmen, at least not intentionally and would be very rare if ever. If it truly is one from your perspective, then I misunderstood what you were saying and responded to what I thought you said. It is not like what you said was clear. You made the claim that Joseph was stealing from other's flocks which seems to be implying sharing the LDS gospel and having people use their freedom o conscious to believe in it is stealing. How is it "stealing" when a free exchange of ideas has someone freely changing their minds on something.

 

[Cable]

I don't think Christ's disciples were taught to worship Christ but to pray and worship Heavenly Father, who is the one God and above all. Jesus Christ is our eldest brother, the mediator between man and God, and He performed the Atonement for mankind, so He is the Savior of mankind. There is such a high esteem for Christ that maybe you can call it a form of worship but never did Christ tell His disciples to pray to Him but always to Heavenly Father. He was always clear the Father was greater than Him. Are there modern day Christian sects that may blur the line and call Jesus the Father, yes. But imho the New Testament does not teach this. The Church found in the NT worshiped God the Father, but also loved and esteemed very highly the Son, who is their Savior. They pray to God the Father in the name of the Son.

There are some interesting scriptures regarding Christ and who he is:

27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side. Do not disbelieve, but believe.” 28 Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!”

16 Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them. 17 And when they saw him they worshiped him, but some doubted. 18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

22For the Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son, 23that all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father

For the Lamb at the center of the throne will be their shepherd; 'he will lead them to springs of living water.' 'And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.'"

 

[laska]

There are some interesting scriptures regarding Christ and who he is:

27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side. Do not disbelieve, but believe.” 28 Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!”

16 Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them. 17 And when they saw him they worshiped him, but some doubted. 18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

22For the Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son, 23that all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father

For the Lamb at the center of the throne will be their shepherd; 'he will lead them to springs of living water.' 'And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.'"

God the Father has granted the Son divine investiture of authority to represent Him on the earth in power and authority, and so in this sense He can be called the Father and God. But Christ is not the actual father of our spirits.

 

[Cable]

God the Father has granted the Son divine investiture of authority to represent Him on the earth in power and authority, and so in this sense He can be called the Father and God. But Christ is not the actual father of our spirits.

Not just on earth, right? All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

 

[laska]

Not just on earth, right? All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

Yes, it was given to Him from who? The Father. the Son is the Creator under the direction of the Father.

 

[SheWolf]

I don't think Christ's disciples were taught to worship Christ but to pray and worship Heavenly Father, who is the one God and above all. Jesus Christ is our eldest brother, the mediator between man and God, and He performed the Atonement for mankind, so He is the Savior of mankind. There is such a high esteem for Christ that maybe you can call it a form of worship but never did Christ tell His disciples to pray to Him but always to Heavenly Father. He was always clear the Father was greater than Him. Are there modern day Christian sects that may blur the line and call Jesus the Father, yes. But imho the New Testament does not teach this. The Church found in the NT worshiped God the Father, but also loved and esteemed very highly the Son, who is their Savior. They pray to God the Father in the name of the Son.

I don't think they worshipped Jesus either.

 

[Josie]

I don't think they worshipped Jesus either.

They did. After he walked on water, the Bible says they worshipped him. They also did after He rose from the dead.

 

[laska]

They did. After he walked on water, the Bible says they worshipped him. They also did after He rose from the dead.

Personally I have no problem worshiping both Heavenly Father and Christ, I just know the Father is the father of my spirit. Christ is the Savior, and because of His Atonement we can return to God and attain eternal life. He is the Creator of the Heavens and the earth under direction of the Father. He is part of the Godhead. he is just like the Father, and the Father has granted him divine investiture so He represents Him in all power and authority. He is the "I AM" of the Torah. I don't blame the apostles for worshiping him in a sense. There is a blurry line in defining worship. I just meant God the Father is the father of our spirits and who we pray to in the name of the Son. I believe the Father wants us to esteem and love Christ very highly to what can be considered worship.

 

[calamity]

If Jesus is truly God, American Christians are in big trouble since most of them do not follow His teachings at all but only worship Him as their Idol.