Jesus is the one true God?

[it's just me]

So if what you're saying is true, then his death meant nothing...no saving value? Only after he was resurrected power was given to him? Why did he tell his followers to commentate his death? He mentioned nothing about his resurrection being of value, it is his death that gives us life...1 Corinthians 11:24...

Without the resurrection, what good could his death have been? And no, he didn't tell his followers to commemorate his death, he told his followers to partake of his body and blood in the Eucharist until his coming again. Here is the rite for the Eucharist we use:

ALL glory be to thee, Almighty God, our heavenly Father, for that thou, of thy tender mercy, didst give thine only Son Jesus Christ to suffer death upon the Cross for our redemption; who made there (by his one oblation of himself once offered) a full, perfect, and sufficient sacrifice, oblation, and satisfaction, for the sins of the whole world; and did institute, and in his holy Gospel command us to continue, a perpetual memory of that his precious death and sacrifice, until his coming again: For in the night in which he was betrayed, he took Bread; and when he had given thanks, he brake it, and gave it to his disciples, saying, Take, eat, this is my Body, which is given for you; Do this in remembrance of me. Likewise, after supper, he took the Cup; and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of this; for this is my Blood of the New Testament, which is shed for you, and for many, for the remission of sins; Do this, as oft as ye shall drink it, in remembrance of me.

WHEREFORE O Lord and heavenly Father, according to the institution of thy dearly beloved Son our Saviour Jesus Christ, we, thy humble servants, do celebrate and make here before thy Divine Majesty, with these thy holy gifts, which we now offer unto thee, the memorial thy Son hath commanded us to make; having in remembrance his blessed passion and precious death, his mighty resurrection and glorious ascension; rendering unto thee most hearty thanks for the innumerable benefits procured unto us by the same.

It continues: And although we are unworthy, through our manifold sins, to offer unto thee any sacrifice; yet we beseech thee to accept this our bounden duty and service; not weighing our merits, but pardoning our offences, through Jesus Christ our Lord; by whom, and with whom, in the unity of the Holy Ghost, all honor and glory be unto thee, O Father Almighty, world without end.

Just like Jesus said. Just like Paul said.

 

[Daisy]

The ransom..his death is what gives us life, not his resurrection and that is what he tells us to remember...that is why we observe the night of his death, Niacin 14, just as he told us to do...

 

[it's just me]

The ransom..his death is what gives us life, not his resurrection and that is what he tells us to remember...that is why we observe the night of his death, Niacin 14, just as he told us to do...

One man cannot ransom another man's life. "Truly no man can ransom another, or give to God the price of his life..." Psalm 49:7. Only God can save you, and if God dies and there is no resurrection, what good is his death? Remember on the road to Emmaus, the believers who were sad because they couldn't find him until he revealed himself in the breaking of the bread. Jesus is not still in the grave.

 

[Daisy]

One man cannot ransom another man's life. "Truly no man can ransom another, or give to God the price of his life..." Psalm 49:7. Only God can save you, and if God dies and there is no resurrection, what good is his death? Remember on the road to Emmaus, the believers who were sad because they couldn't find him until he revealed himself in the breaking of the bread. Jesus is not still in the grave.

We will have to disagree...a perfect man lost perfect human life for all mankind...nothing short of a perfect human life could regain it...that is what ransom means...a price paid to buy back or to bring about release from some obligation or undesirable circumstance...a means for balancing justice and setting matters straight...that is what Jesus did...

 

[it's just me]

We will have to disagree...a perfect man lost perfect human life for all mankind...nothing short of a perfect human life could regain it...that is what ransom means...a price paid to buy back or to bring about release from some obligation or undesirable circumstance...a means for balancing justice and setting matters straight...that is what Jesus did...

I guess you don't believe the scriptures then when it says that no man can pay for the life of another, it's as plain as the nose on your face. And as I recall, Adam wasn't so perfect. but he was a man, a human being, which was why God had to become a human being - Jesus, with the power to raise himself from the dead, just the way he said he would raise us from the dead in John 6.

 

[RayRainer]

I picked one at random to show you these so-called 'contradictions' don't hold water.



Jesus taught we are eternally secure:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life."

'has' - present tense. 'crossed over from death to life" - salvation assured.

There's others as well.

Tell me, have you ever seriously studied the Bible and read the whole thing? It doesn't sound like it. So how can you be a critic if you haven't seriously studied it?

In John, he does emphasize "whoever hears my word"? Jesus lays it out in the Parable of the Sheep and Goats. Did Jesus say this for nothing? Am I cherry picking? That is his word and if you don't follow his word, then you do not believe in him, Jesus says in that parable. Just this sense of "righteousness" is not enough. You have to go out and do good works. I find it consistent to his teachings. Paul just kind of muddies up Jesus "clear" words. I am not demonizing Paul but he is often not clear in my mind. We follow Jesus, not Paul nor any of the apostles. We look for a consistency through out. Of course, that doesn't mean you will not fall but you continue to do good deeds but you don't "trumpet them" as in Matthew 6. I just don't like when people take their faith for granted and believe just because they go to Church, Pray and say they believe in him without doing his works, it will lead to salvation. It is like going to work. When you go to work, you have to do the job. Showing up isn't going to cut it. However, I am not saying you shouldn't go to Church and pray but it should be a means to an end and not just an end itself. They all work together. Just like James 2 says "14) What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? Which is very consistent through the entire passage. 22) You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected.

 

[Logicman]

In John, he does emphasize "whoever hears my word"? Jesus lays it out in the Parable of the Sheep and Goats. Did Jesus say this for nothing? Am I cherry picking? That is his word and if you don't follow his word, then you do not believe in him, Jesus says in that parable. Just this sense of "righteousness" is not enough. You have to go out and do good works. I find it consistent to his teachings. Paul just kind of muddies up Jesus "clear" words. I am not demonizing Paul but he is often not clear in my mind. We follow Jesus, not Paul nor any of the apostles. We look for a consistency through out. Of course, that doesn't mean you will not fall but you continue to do good deeds but you don't "trumpet them" as in Matthew 6. I just don't like when people take their faith for granted and believe just because they go to Church, Pray and say they believe in him without doing his works, it will lead to salvation. It is like going to work. When you go to work, you have to do the job. Showing up isn't going to cut it. However, I am not saying you shouldn't go to Church and pray but it should be a means to an end and not just an end itself. They all work together. Just like James 2 says "14) What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? Which is very consistent through the entire passage. 22) You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected.

Generally I agree with you, Ray, but works aren't part of the salvation equation. We see that in Ephesians 2:8-9 as well as inn Galatians 3:10-11, when Paul addresses that issue: “All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: ‘Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.’ Clearly, no one is justified before God by the law, because, ‘The righteous will live by faith.” But Paul does stress works (“I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds / works.” - Acts 26:20), but initial saving faith comes first.

I studied that precise issue for 6 months solid until I got it down. Here's how is really is:

"So why did Paul state in Ephesians that a person is saved by grace through faith, and not by works? And why did he refer to Genesis 15:6 as the point of Abraham’s justification and not Genesis 22? Initial saving faith is the precursor to works. Abraham was not saved (justified righteous) by performing works, he was performing works of a Godly nature because he first was saved and regenerated by faith. Works of a Godly nature are the result of our regeneration and salvation, not the cause of it. Faith by grace is the antecedent of works. It chronologically occurs first. Once the Holy Spirit indwells a believer at the point of salvation, He starts the process of Progressive Sanctification, and one of the effects of the indwelling Holy Spirit (Titus 3:5-7) is that of causing, or compelling a person, by a change of heart and mind and with the believer’s cooperation, to perform works of a Godly nature. James’ argument addresses that time period of a person’s life, following true salvation and regeneration, when good works are supposed to be in evidence. He is saying, “Now that you claim to be saved, we should be seeing some good works out of you. However, if these good works are not apparent, then your initial faith was probably not genuine, and you were never, either in the eyes of God, nor in the eyes of man, justified righteous.”

Justification by Faith - https://righterreport.com/2011/12/1...-how-believers-are-declared-righteous-by-god/

Please read that article in the link.

 

[phattonez]

Generally I agree with you, Ray, but works aren't part of the salvation equation. We see that in Ephesians 2:8-9 as well as inn Galatians 3:10-11, when Paul addresses that issue: “All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: ‘Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.’ Clearly, no one is justified before God by the law, because, ‘The righteous will live by faith.” But Paul does stress works (“I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds / works.” - Acts 26:20), but initial saving faith comes first.

I studied that precise issue for 6 months solid until I got it down. Here's how is really is:

"So why did Paul state in Ephesians that a person is saved by grace through faith, and not by works? And why did he refer to Genesis 15:6 as the point of Abraham’s justification and not Genesis 22? Initial saving faith is the precursor to works. Abraham was not saved (justified righteous) by performing works, he was performing works of a Godly nature because he first was saved and regenerated by faith. Works of a Godly nature are the result of our regeneration and salvation, not the cause of it. Faith by grace is the antecedent of works. It chronologically occurs first. Once the Holy Spirit indwells a believer at the point of salvation, He starts the process of Progressive Sanctification, and one of the effects of the indwelling Holy Spirit (Titus 3:5-7) is that of causing, or compelling a person, by a change of heart and mind and with the believer’s cooperation, to perform works of a Godly nature. James’ argument addresses that time period of a person’s life, following true salvation and regeneration, when good works are supposed to be in evidence. He is saying, “Now that you claim to be saved, we should be seeing some good works out of you. However, if these good works are not apparent, then your initial faith was probably not genuine, and you were never, either in the eyes of God, nor in the eyes of man, justified righteous.”

Justification by Faith - https://righterreport.com/2011/12/1...-how-believers-are-declared-righteous-by-god/

Please read that article in the link.

Watch yourself Logicman, that bolded part sounds very Catholic.

Of course, the only difference that we have now is that you think faith is not genuine if someone stumbles. I have to ask, before the Passion of Our Lord, did Peter have genuine faith? And when he denied Christ, was it a mistake, or a sign that his faith was not genuine?

 

[Logicman]

Watch yourself Logicman, that bolded part sounds very Catholic.

If it does then it's also very biblical. They do get things right once in a while.

Have you studied "progressive sanctification"? Here's an article on it: https://www.gotquestions.org/progressive-sanctification.html

Of course, the only difference that we have now is that you think faith is not genuine if someone stumbles.

Not so. I don't think that. Christians stumble all the time. It's failing to be convicted and repent of a constant and on-going stream of sins over time that tends to tell the tale. Didn't Jesus say you shall know them by their works (including bad works)?

I have to ask, before the Passion of Our Lord, did Peter have genuine faith? And when he denied Christ, was it a mistake, or a sign that his faith was not genuine?

Obviously a mistake. If he continued to deny Jesus over the next year or twenty then it would have been a sign his faith was not genuine.

 

[phattonez]

If it does then it's also very biblical. They do get things right once in a while.

Have you studied "progressive sanctification"? Here's an article on it: https://www.gotquestions.org/progressive-sanctification.html

Not so. I don't think that. Christians stumble all the time. It's failing to be convicted and repent of a constant and on-going stream of sins over time that tends to tell the tale. Didn't Jesus say you shall know them by their works (including bad works)?

Obviously a mistake. If he continued to deny Jesus over the next year or twenty then it would have been a sign his faith was not genuine.

That's is actually a far more interesting take on the subject that you get from most faith alone folk. I guess the only question remains, and this probably needs its own thread, is what you should do after you sin.

 

[Logicman]

That's is actually a far more interesting take on the subject that you get from most faith alone folk. I guess the only question remains, and this probably needs its own thread, is what you should do after you sin.

You dial 911 (the 9th verse of 1 John chapter 1): "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

 

[phattonez]

You dial 911 (the 9th verse of 1 John chapter 1): "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

We agree on that, but we just differ on how exactly that should be carried out.

 

[RayRainer]

Generally I agree with you, Ray, but works aren't part of the salvation equation. We see that in Ephesians 2:8-9 as well as inn Galatians 3:10-11, when Paul addresses that issue: “All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: ‘Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.’ Clearly, no one is justified before God by the law, because, ‘The righteous will live by faith.” But Paul does stress works (“I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds / works.” - Acts 26:20), but initial saving faith comes first.

I studied that precise issue for 6 months solid until I got it down. Here's how is really is:

"So why did Paul state in Ephesians that a person is saved by grace through faith, and not by works? ...... However, if these good works are not apparent, then your initial faith was probably not genuine, and you were never, either in the eyes of God, nor in the eyes of man, justified righteous.”

Justification by Faith - https://righterreport.com/2011/12/1...-how-believers-are-declared-righteous-by-god/


I choose to ignore Paul and choose to focus on the Apostles of Jesus. Paul is too lenient and distracts from Jesus simple teachings. Jesus is not lenient and lays it out very simply. I am not saying that "only works" will save you. It has to be done together with Faith and Prayer. If all these righteous people with their righteous attitudes only sit in church and pray, and "believe" they have faith in Jesus, where is the evidence for that faith, where is the works for that faith. as james says: 1) My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. And then why does Matthew say in 6:1 Be careful not to perform your righteous acts before men to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven. 2 So when you give to the needy, do not sound a trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be praised by men. Truly I tell you, they already have their reward. 5 And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites. For they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. 6 But when you pray, go into your inner room, shut your door, and pray to your Father, who is unseen.

I am sorry Christian too often do the easy part which is to only sit in Church and Pray showing their righteousness to others. Get up and do something for someone. Be part of the solution to this hell we sometimes live in due to the evil of people. Sometimes doing nothing is evil. Parable of the sheep and Goats: 41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’ 44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’ 45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’ This is his real message. He wasn't making it up.

This is kind of a tangent but I recently saw Hacksaw Ridge. Now this guy definitely believes in Jesus by doing works and he proved it by doing something and not just sitting Church and pray. He acted. Amazing movie. I don't know why people believe the kingdom of God will be so easily given to them. To follow Jesus you have to be brave but not perfect. I once got a B in a college course, even though I could not understand the subject and did terrible papers but he saw my effort and gave me a B. He must be a Christian.

But I don't want you to believe that I am living up to what I saying, nor am I lecturing. I am only saying this is what Jesus wants from you from my understanding. It is very simple. The Kingdom of God will not be given easily. I am sorry if you believe that you are entitled to it. James: 20) But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless? 21) Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? 24) You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. We are talking about sacrifice like the man in Hacksaw Ridge. That is sacrifice what he did. He was trying to balance his love for Jesus with the Love of his country and he did it well.

 

[slo1111]

We agree on that, but we just differ on how exactly that should be carried out.

To keep up with the times it ought to be on Facebook.

Sent from my SM-N920T using Tapatalk

 

[Logicman]

I choose to ignore Paul and choose to focus on the Apostles of Jesus. (i.e. discussing works in the salvation equation)

Easy question: Does anyone SINCERELY preach the Gospel (works) BEFORE they believe? No, they don't. So faith and believing and spiritual regeneration by God are the impetus.

A harder question: If works are required for salvation, does that mean sincere, death-bed confessions and belief in Christ are of no effect in being saved?

A works-oriented salvation equation says the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross was insufficient. It's legalism.

Another question: How many works and what kind of works are required for salvation? The Bible teaches that you can be assured that you're saved (John 5:24, etc.). So, how can you feel assured of your salvation if you're not sure how many 'works' it takes to be saved?

Next, there's only one passage in the Bible that I'm aware of that clarifies the relationship between faith, works, and rewards. 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 (among other passages). i.e.

"For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay, or straw, his work will be shown for what it is, because the day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames."

The Full Life Study Bible provides these remarks on the above passage:

"HE WILL SUFFER LOSS: There is a future judgment for believers (I John 4:17) as to the degree of their faithfulness to God and the grace given to them during this life on earth (v.10; 4:2-5; 2 Cor.5:10). In that judgment there is the possibility that a believer, although receiving salvation, may experience great loss (Greek zemloo, meaning 'to suffer loss or damage'). The careless believer is in danger of suffering loss or damage in the following ways: (1) a feeling of shame at Christ's coming (2 Ti. 2:15; 1 John 2:28); (2) loss of his or her life's work for God (vv. 12-15); (3) loss of glory and honor before God (cf. Romans 2:7); (4) loss of opportunity for service and authority in heaven (Mt. 25:14-30); (5) a low position in heaven (Mt. 25:14-30); (6) loss of rewards (cf. v. 14-15); and (7) repayment for the wrong done to others (Col. 3:24-25).

AS ONE ESCAPING THROUGH THE FLAMES: 'Escaping through the flames' is probably an expression meaning 'barely saved.' God will evaluate the quality of life, influence, teaching, and work in the church of each person. If his work is judged unworthy, he will lose his (heavenly) reward, yet he himself will be saved." ( Full Life 1755-56)

For those who may have been saved just prior to death (the thief on the cross), there may not be any (good) works to reward, yet their salvation is assured. It is my contention that once a person is regenerated, eventually, if they live long enough, there should be some sort of Godly works in their life (James chapter 2), or they were never born again.

Don't get me wrong: Works are important, but they're not the cause of salvation. They're the result of first being saved, regenerated, and filled with the Holy Spirit.

 

[Logicman]

I choose to ignore Paul (i.e. Grace through faith alone - Ephesians 2:8-9).

Well here's another work for you to do:

Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent." - John 6:29

Of course, once you believe in Christ then you're saved by grace through faith.

 

[phattonez]

I choose to ignore Paul and choose to focus on the Apostles of Jesus.

On what basis? Two of the gospels weren't even written by apostles, so should we ignore that? Should I only read Matthew, John, and the epistles of James, Peter, and John? Further, why should I only read the apostles? The other apostles made reference to Paul, so why shouldn't I read what he wrote?

 

[RayRainer]

Well here's another work for you to do:

Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent." - John 6:29

Of course, once you believe in Christ then you're saved by grace through faith.

Somehow the point keeps getting missed. It is a matter of if you are truly saved by Grace through faith. Who determines that? How you do know for sure? Does Jesus talk to you and says you no longer have to do works? You are now officially retired. So now you can just do whatever you want to do? James 2: 18) But someone may well say, "You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works."

 

[RayRainer]

That is your choice. You can read what you want. I just find it a little easier to focus on the Gospels for now. So are they wrong? Do they say wrong things? Perhaps if I can get more of a grip on what I see as contradictions to the Gospels, which I assume are the safest to focus on, I will reconcile these people who never saw Jesus and why they say different things.

 

[Logicman]

Somehow the point keeps getting missed. It is a matter of if you are truly saved by Grace through faith. Who determines that? How you do know for sure? Does Jesus talk to you and says you no longer have to do works? You are now officially retired. So now you can just do whatever you want to do? James 2: 18) But someone may well say, "You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works."

You didn't answer the questions, so let me post them again for you:

1. Easy question: Does anyone SINCERELY preach the Gospel (works) BEFORE they believe? No, they don't. So faith and believing and spiritual regeneration by God are the impetus.

2. A harder question: If works are required for salvation, does that mean sincere, death-bed confessions and belief in Christ are of no effect in being saved?

3. A works-oriented salvation equation says the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross was insufficient. It's legalism.

4. Another question: How many works and what kind of works are required for salvation? The Bible teaches that you can be assured that you're saved (John 5:24, etc.). So, how can you feel assured of your salvation if you're not sure how many 'works' it takes to be saved?

And here's another: Where were the works of the thief on the cross to whom Jesus said, "Today you will be with me in paradise"?

As for Jesus, did he not say "..whosoever believes in him shall not perish, but have everlasting life." - John 3:16 No works there. And none in John 3:36, John 8:24, or some other salvation verses either.

 

[RayRainer]

You didn't answer the questions, so let me post them again for you:

1. Easy question: Does anyone SINCERELY preach the Gospel (works) BEFORE they believe? No, they don't. So faith and believing and spiritual regeneration by God are the impetus.

Maybe they should. Maybe it might make more sense.

2. A harder question: If works are required for salvation, does that mean sincere, death-bed confessions and belief in Christ are of no effect in being saved?

At your death bed is hardly a time to repent after a life time of debauchery, killing and sinning. Are you repenting because you are dying or do your truly believe in Jesus. No confession will be meaningful if you just feel guilty for what you have done but do not really believe in Jesus. There is no guarantee of any pardon by anyone. No man has this authority. You will have to wait and see.

3. A works-oriented salvation equation says the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross was insufficient. It's legalism.

This whole concept of Jesus dying for our sins is very confusing to me I will admit. It seems to allow many Christians to believe they can just go to Church each Sunday, pray a little and then spend the rest of the week in Sin. No wonder Priest and Ministers are caught doing terrible things. There are so many confusing things in the Bible that is hard for any rational person to reconcile. I can really understand why more people are becoming Atheists because there is so much irrationality which often begs the question "Faith in what and who "exactly". Faith in Paul? Faith in Jesus, Faith in John, Faith in James? But right now the Gospels according to the Apostles (to clarify) who were in Jesus company seems consistent to me and it seems people ignore them over Paul.

4. Another question: How many works and what kind of works are required for salvation? The Bible teaches that you can be assured that you're saved (John 5:24, etc.). So, how can you feel assured of your salvation if you're not sure how many 'works' it takes to be saved?

You can never be assured, unless Jesus personally talks to you and you are sure that is Jesus talking to you. A truly humble person would always believe that they are not worthy which they probably aren't. Again, I quote James 2: 18) But someone may well say, "You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works." I see that many Christians are just simply delusional: Jesus will decide just like in the Parable of the Sheep and Goats. You will not decide. No man will decide.

Among the sheep and goats who both call Jesus Lord, the group who serves Jesus by feeding the brethren in need, clothing them, and giving them water, goes to heaven. The other group who calls Jesus Lord but who fails to provide such charity are, as a consequence, sent to “eternal fire.”

And here's another: Where were the works of the thief on the cross to whom Jesus said, "Today you will be with me in paradise"?

Jesus can do whatever He wants. Only He knows your heart. Do we know this thief and the hardships he had to endure? Do we know his heart?

As for Jesus, did he not say "..whosoever believes in him shall not perish, but have everlasting life." - John 3:16 No works there. And none in John 3:36, John 8:24, or some other salvation verses either.

But you are ignoring what the others are saying. Were they wrong? Do I have to keep quoting James: 18) But someone may well say, "You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works." Isn't "believing similar to "Faith". Isn't following my word, do my work? It is just confusing. Who do you listen to? It just makes sense to do good works? Why do Christians work so hard to escape doing good works? They delude themselves by no authority that they are saved? Well Good Luck.

 

[Logicman]

But you are ignoring what the others are saying. Were they wrong? Do I have to keep quoting James: 18) But someone may well say, "You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works." Isn't "believing similar to "Faith". Isn't following my word, do my work? It is just confusing. Who do you listen to? It just makes sense to do good works? Why do Christians work so hard to escape doing good works? They delude themselves by no authority that they are saved? Well Good Luck.

Why can't you answer the questions posed instead of having tunnel vision on James?

And I've already explained in a prior post James in relation to Paul, so there's no conflict.

 

[RayRainer]

I did. I ended up embedding them right into the questions you ask, so you may have missed them. I have mentioned Matthews as well, in the Parable and the sheep where Jesus makes it very clear that works is important but let's ignore that. “Every tree therefore that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.” (Matt. 7:19.). Do you really believe that "just" your faith and beliefs are fruit? You have to plant good works as a farmer plants seeds. Walking around feeling righteous is not enough. You have to watch your actions and the things you do. Don't delude yourself. The mind is very tricky and will have you believing anything. It will have you believing in Satan while you believe it to be Jesus. Look at those who worshiped David Koresh. Words are very illusional as well since they are never the thing itself and just pointing to something. Words are an abstraction. You have to get a sense of the "whole". Works is the evidence of your faith by your actions towards others as Jesus emphasizes in the sheep and the goats.

However, Matthew says 6:1 Be careful not to perform your righteous acts before men to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven. 5 And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites. For they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. 6 But when you pray, go into your inner room, shut your door, and pray to your Father, who is unseen.

You can just go on and on and read the entire Bible and get lost in it to avoid the real mission by complicating your life and miss the whole point of Jesus which is to do good works. James again: 14) What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? 15) If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, 16) and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and be filled," and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? 17) Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.

We have unnecessarily complicated Jesus mission by deluding ourselves into believing works is not necessary. Instead we have become obsessed with rituals to convince us we believe and have faith. Religion often focuses on the Shell but spirituality focuses on the kernel. You reap what you sow.

 

[Logicman]

I did. I ended up embedding them right into the questions you ask, so you may have missed them. I have mentioned Matthews as well, in the Parable and the sheep where Jesus makes it very clear that works is important but let's ignore that. “Every tree therefore that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.” (Matt. 7:19.). Do you really believe that "just" your faith and beliefs are fruit? You have to plant good works as a farmer plants seeds. Walking around feeling righteous is not enough. You have to watch your actions and the things you do. Don't delude yourself. The mind is very tricky and will have you believing anything. It will have you believing in Satan while you believe it to be Jesus. Look at those who worshiped David Koresh. Words are very illusional as well since they are never the thing itself and just pointing to something. Words are an abstraction. You have to get a sense of the "whole". Works is the evidence of your faith by your actions towards others as Jesus emphasizes in the sheep and the goats.

However, Matthew says 6:1 Be careful not to perform your righteous acts before men to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven. 5 And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites. For they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. 6 But when you pray, go into your inner room, shut your door, and pray to your Father, who is unseen.

You can just go on and on and read the entire Bible and get lost in it to avoid the real mission by complicating your life and miss the whole point of Jesus which is to do good works. James again: 14) What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? 15) If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, 16) and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and be filled," and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? 17) Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.

We have unnecessarily complicated Jesus mission by deluding ourselves into believing works is not necessary. Instead we have become obsessed with rituals to convince us we believe and have faith. Religion often focuses on the Shell but spirituality focuses on the kernel. You reap what you sow.

Thanks for your views. I'll stick with what I've already posted on the subject. God bless!

 

[phattonez]

That is your choice. You can read what you want. I just find it a little easier to focus on the Gospels for now. So are they wrong? Do they say wrong things? Perhaps if I can get more of a grip on what I see as contradictions to the Gospels, which I assume are the safest to focus on, I will reconcile these people who never saw Jesus and why they say different things.

Since the Gospels are not written by Christ, why do you consider them to be more trustworthy than the other works of the New Testament?