Israeli-Palestinian Dispute: Solutions Thread

[oneworld2]

You can call it whatever you want. It has no impact on the viability of a future Palestinian state and any claim otherwise is obviously false.

If you build a fence on the recognized borders it can be referred to as a security fence separation barrier etc etc, when you build inside the border and illegally take land from the people living there, then it's , obviously an annexation wall. I thought you liked to be strict on the descriptions of things ? Maybe only when it suits eh

And yes they do have an impact of the viability of the state because we are talking hundreds of thousands of illegal settlers being part of the Palestinian state and cutting the capital of that state off from the rest of the country

Not really. You can say that as much as you like, but they are not actually illegal since Israel has the best claim to that territory of any state.

Yes really. They are all illegal and the only ones with the law on their side WRT a legal claim over that territory are the Palestinians , that's why the world recognizes it as OPT.

LOL. Tel Aviv has never been Israel's capital.

Apologies ,Freudian slip

Yeah, yeah. The law. What they are "entitled" to.

Yep the law entitles them to it

Shifting goalposts again. None of this has to do with viability. And if independence was the goal here these wouldn't be obstacles of any import. Sure the Palestinians may not get all they are "entitled to" (systematic war crimes with genocidal goals can do that to you), but they would get a viable state and the sovereign independence they say is their objective.

Both sides are guilty of crimes , why do you think only one side should be punished for them ?

 

[CJ 2.0]

If you build a fence on the recognized borders it can be referred to as a security fence separation barrier etc etc, when you build inside the border and illegally take land from the people living there, then it's , obviously an annexation wall. I thought you liked to be strict on the descriptions of things ? Maybe only when it suits eh

Yeah, so this is not what you were saying before, is it? The wall, even if it is intended to be the future border (which it may or may not be, since it can be moved, although I would be in favour of keeping all of the territory on the Israeli side of it), has absolutely nothing to do with the viability of a Palestinian state.

And that is what you were claiming, right? That the Israeli communities on the other side of the green line all need to be removed or else the Palestinian state will not be viable?

So keep on the subject and let's see where that takes us, eh?

And yes they do have an impact of the viability of the state because we are talking hundreds of thousands of illegal settlers being part of the Palestinian state and cutting the capital of that state off from the rest of the country

Except their capital is in Rammalah so we're fine. There is no evidence the state can't function without Jerusalem. There is also no evidence that the state will need to have hundreds of thousands of Jews (godforbid) since borders can be drawn that would put the vast majority of those Jews outside of a perfectly viable Palestinian state.

Yes really. They are all illegal and the only ones with the law on their side WRT a legal claim over that territory are the Palestinians , that's why the world recognizes it as OPT.

And how does that work? In any event, it's all just nonsense pressure against the Jews and we know how that works. San Remo, the League Mandate, 262, all of them recognized Israeli rights to those territories. The Palestinians are not and have never been a state and so therefore have no rights over those territories. They have self determination rights, but why should they have the right to territory they don't live on for self-determination when it is held by the nation to whom it was properly and legally given before?

Apologies ,Freudian slip

was it? "ou have had Tel Aviv as the capital for 70 years no problems with that. You can have West Jerusalem if you want BUT East Jerusalem remains ... " doesn't sound like you meant to say West Jerusalem. But in any event, the Jewish part of the old city, from which the Jews were forcibly removed by the Jordanians after the War of Independence and which was subsequently methodically desecrated by them, will never be relinquished.

Both sides are guilty of crimes , why do you think only one side should be punished for them ?

Dude. mirror.


So, to sum up, we have now gone from "the settlements prevent the establishment of a viable Palestinian state" to simply claiming they are illegal and the Palestinians have rights to stuff.

Which is exactly the same trap the Palestinians and their supporters have been falling into for decades. Because that is where the mask comes off. It isn't really about the establishment of a viable Palestinian state, is it? Because the Israelis living in Jerusalem, Judea and Samaria (which is what they were always called before the Jordanians illegally occupied them, in case the language makes you want to blow a gasket) have absolutely nothing to do with whether any future Palestinian state would be viable (it would be if it had the proper governing institutions and civil society, which it won't but that's another thread).

So it isn't and never was about the viability of an independent Palestinian state. It's about what you think of as "justice" and not "letting the Jews get away with it".

Better to have continued conflict and demonization of the Jews than advocating a compromise settlement that involves the Palestinians getting the freedom and independence everyone pretends is the objective of them and their international supporters.

 

[ido_]

off the top of my head some points

What I am saying is that the continued existence of those illegal settlers living in any future Palestinian state renders the state itself unviable. Look at how the annexation wall isolates one Palestinian settlement from the next and disconnects them from their farmlands etc

The settler usage of water outstrips by some distance the usage of the existing Palestinians population, what chance that there would be enough for millions more ? Israeli imposed " security zones " already deny the Palestinians the right to build much needed housing on their own territory. Would future " security concerns " impede the Palestinians state's ability to house the possible millions of returning Palestinians ?

The de facto annexation of East Jerusalem by illegal settlements denies the Palestinian state its capital and cuts it off from the rest of the state.

When you look at proposed maps what you see is a huge salient jutting out from Jerusalem that all but severs the proposed Palestinian state in half with the rest looking like a series of isolated disconnected cantons.

Any interracial disputes or troubles there would undoubtedly see a massive Israeli military response that would result in regular mass slaughterings of Palestinians thus rendering the state governing parties helpless in providing its citizens with any level of security

I dont understand your points nor how they answer my question.
lets say that the Palestinians get every inch of land behind the green line, is it ok with you that jews will stay living over there or do they have to evacuate and keep the palestinian state jew-free

 

[justabubba]

I dont understand your points nor how they answer my question.
lets say that the Palestinians get every inch of land behind the green line, is it ok with you that jews will stay living over there or do they have to evacuate and keep the palestinian state jew-free

would israel believe it necessary to violate that green line to "protect" the jewish residents of Palestine?
if so, then the jews should go, to eliminate an additional ruse for israel to violate the sovereign lands of another people

 

[NO1]

would israel believe it necessary to violate that green line to "protect" the jewish residents of Palestine?
if so, then the jews should go, to eliminate an additional ruse for israel to violate the sovereign lands of another people

You mean that Jews there won't be safe, like they won't be safe in Syria ,Iraq snd such. This kind of country you want to establish? Failed country?

 

[justabubba]

You mean that Jews there won't be safe, like they won't be safe in Syria ,Iraq snd such. This kind of country you want to establish? Failed country?

my preference would be to eliminate anything which might provoke israel to again violate the sovereign boundaries of another people

 

[oneworld2]

I dont understand your points nor how they answer my question.

I tried to outline some of the obvious problems of continuing the friction between illegal settlers and Palestinian Arabs in any future state and the danger it poses to both sets of people. The general unviability of it all. It's a sad situation all around but it is what it is

We have to be a little bit honest here about what has occurred for 5 decades , starting off slowly and ending up an avalanche of settlers and a brutal repressive occupation of the Palestinians with all of the systematic human rights violations that have accompanied it

lets say that the Palestinians get every inch of land behind the green line, is it ok with you that jews will stay living over there or do they have to evacuate and keep the palestinian state jew-free

Just to start off with a statement first..................Jews don't require my blessing to live where they want to live. So it's not a case of what's OK with me. I'm just an outside observer that has an interest in this conflict and it's resolution.

My view is , and I take no joy from it , that because of the 50 years of occupation , the massive Palestinian human rights violations that have been perpetrated because of it , tit for tat Palestinian/settler violence ( that would surely continue/escalate and the Israeli/Palestinian Gov responses to it ) , infrastructural segregation , competition for resources , etc........... the only way to hope for a lasting peace would be for a complete withdrawal of the settlers in Palestine.

My view is also that should a fairish deal be struck it would see , as part of the " mutually agreed territorial exchanges " Israel transferring many Arabs from Israel to the newly formed Palestinian state.

I don't see any of this happening btw , the rejectionists on both sides and the US veto ensure the continuing carnage. Sad

 

[oneworld2]

You mean that Jews there won't be safe, like they won't be safe in Syria ,Iraq snd such. This kind of country you want to establish? Failed country?

You have to face the truth that the occupation and the settlers are illegal and have caused such misery to the people of East Jerusalem , the WB and Gaza that peaceful coexistence is an unrealistic prospect.

Do you seriously think Bubba and myself are happy that this situation is the way it is ?

 

[NO1]

my preference would be to eliminate anything which might provoke israel to again violate the sovereign boundaries of another people

No, you just admit it that the country you want to establish would treat Jews like other failed country as Iraq and Syria.

 

[NO1]

You have to face the truth that the occupation and the settlers are illegal and have caused such misery to the people of East Jerusalem , the WB and Gaza that peaceful coexistence is an unrealistic prospect.

Do you seriously think Bubba and myself are happy that this situation is the way it is ?

I'm learning with arabs from east Jerusalem almost two years now, two of them I hang out on a daily basis.
Why would it be impossible in the country you want to establish?

 

[oneworld2]

I'm learning with arabs from east Jerusalem almost two years now, two of them I hang out on a daily basis.
Why would it be impossible in the country you want to establish?

Because of the very real tensions in many parts of the WB due to tit for tat violence.

Go to the Btselem site and have a look around and see if you think that peaceful coexistence is still possible

 

[CJ 2.0]

You have to face the truth that the occupation and the settlers are illegal and have caused such misery to the people of East Jerusalem , the WB and Gaza that peaceful coexistence is an unrealistic prospect.

Do you seriously think Bubba and myself are happy that this situation is the way it is ?

The occupation, up until the Oslo terror war, has lead to the most significant increase in living standards, human health and welfare indicators, education, and prosperity than was realized in any other Arab country.

Which is only provided for the purpose of calling bull **** on your above nonsense. People in East Jerusalem are much better off than they would have been under Jordanian occupation.

 

[CJ 2.0]

Because of the very real tensions in many parts of the WB due to tit for tat violence.

Go to the Btselem site and have a look around and see if you think that peaceful coexistence is still possible

yeah. Btselem. European-funded anti-Israel propaganda.

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/23988809-catch-the-jew

 

[NO1]

Because of the very real tensions in many parts of the WB due to tit for tat violence.

Go to the Btselem site and have a look around and see if you think that peaceful coexistence is still possible

In other words because the hatred for Jews. Just like if some Israeli will mistakely take the wrong turn into Jenin, he will get lynched. But of course you can't say the opposite. This kind of country would be exect match of the one in Gaza, but you won't admit it.

 

[CJ 2.0]

In other words because the hatred for Jews. Just like if some Israeli will mistakely take the wrong turn into Jenin, he will get lynched. But of course you can't say the opposite. This kind of country would be exect match of the one in Gaza, but you won't admit it.

It will actually be much, much worse. Cause once the joy is gone from the Europeans getting to pretend the Jews are nazis and as bad as they are, they will lose interest and the Palestinians won't have all their money to piss away. Then the civil war will start and one or another Muslim country will effectively take over and double down on any repression, given the international community by then will cease caring and in any event would never hold any other country to the standard expected of the Jews.

 

[justabubba]

No, you just admit it that the country you want to establish would treat Jews like other failed country as Iraq and Syria.

no, i meant what i posted
it would not be wise for the state of palestine to allow the jews to remain in their encampments because that could "justify" israel to violate the sovereign state's borders to ostensibly "protect" the jewish settlers
israel has a long history of initiating conflict with other sovereign states by crossing their borders. there should be no such allowance for another such "provocation"

 

[CJ 2.0]

no, i meant what i posted
it would not be wise for the state of palestine to allow the jews to remain in their encampments because that could "justify" israel to violate the sovereign state's borders to ostensibly "protect" the jewish settlers
israel has a long history of initiating conflict with other sovereign states by crossing their borders. there should be no such allowance for another such "provocation"

yes, ethnically cleanse them for their own good. Same view about the Arabs living in Israel?

 

[justabubba]

yes, ethnically cleanse them for their own good. Same view about the Arabs living in Israel?

that question has already been decided - by the government of israel
it is why a one-state solution is not even on the table
because it is evident within a very few generations israel would no longer be a predominantly jewish nation if that were to happen

 

[NO1]

no, i meant what i posted
it would not be wise for the state of palestine to allow the jews to remain in their encampments because that could "justify" israel to violate the sovereign state's borders to ostensibly "protect" the jewish settlers
israel has a long history of initiating conflict with other sovereign states by crossing their borders. there should be no such allowance for another such "provocation"

You admitted that Jews won't be safe in the palestinian country you want to establish. That's true, and I can't find any reason to establish country like the one in Gaza.

 

[justabubba]

You admitted that Jews won't be safe in the palestinian country you want to establish. That's true, and I can't find any reason to establish country like the one in Gaza.

[emphasis added by bubba]

i never posted that the jews would not be safe there

my concern is that the presence of the jews - and an allegation that they are not safe - will provide the israeli government the little "justification" it needs to again violate the borders of another sovereign people

now, if you insist on pretending that i have said that the jews will not be safe in Palestine, i expect you to demonstrate it by copying and pasting my post asserting that bogus statement on your next visit in this thread. failing to do so will cause me to conclude that you recognize the error of your charge

 

[NO1]

[emphasis added by bubba]

i never posted that the jews would not be safe there

my concern is that the presence of the jews - and an allegation that they are not safe - will provide the israeli government the little "justification" it needs to again violate the borders of another sovereign people

now, if you insist on pretending that i have said that the jews will not be safe in Palestine, i expect you to demonstrate it by copying and pasting my post asserting that bogus statement on your next visit in this thread. failing to do so will cause me to conclude that you recognize the error of your charge

I believe it's called reading between the lines.

Why would be such allegations?

 

[oneworld2]

that question has already been decided - by the government of israel
it is why a one-state solution is not even on the table
because it is evident within a very few generations israel would no longer be a predominantly jewish nation if that were to happen

The irony of all of this Bubba is that the Palestinians by refusing a state lite and Israelis , by changing the facts on the ground , have all but killed the chances of a two state solution which might lead to a growing support for a one state binational situation.

 

[CJ 2.0]

I just wanted to add my observation that the "big lie" theory as postulated by the Nazis and perfected by the Soviets is stunningly accurate.

No matter where you go, we see descriptions of these attacks as "peaceful protests" notwithstanding pictures of burning and fires and rock throwing and the rest which obviously show that these are not "peaceful", while the declared intentions of the Palestinians are ignored to pretend these are "protests" rather than attempts to take over Israel.

Even though reality is right there for all to see, as spread wide and far by the Palestinian propagandists working on the media photo circuit, we see endless stupidity of people declaring these "peaceful protests" and the propagandists in the echo chamber repeating and apparently believing it.

It really is mind boggling.

 

[oneworld2]

I just wanted to add my observation that the "big lie" theory as postulated by the Nazis and perfected by the Soviets is stunningly accurate.

No matter where you go, we see descriptions of these attacks as "peaceful protests" notwithstanding pictures of burning and fires and rock throwing and the rest which obviously show that these are not "peaceful", while the declared intentions of the Palestinians are ignored to pretend these are "protests" rather than attempts to take over Israel.

Even though reality is right there for all to see, as spread wide and far by the Palestinian propagandists working on the media photo circuit, we see endless stupidity of people declaring these "peaceful protests" and the propagandists in the echo chamber repeating and apparently believing it.

It really is mind boggling.

Wrong thread for this ,move along

 

[CJ 2.0]

Wrong thread for this ,move along

Thanks for the directive commandant.