Is Transgenderism a choice?

[joko104]

He would not really be trans then. In fact, I'm pretty sure he could be charged with fraud. Depending on the situation, so could the doctor that was required to sign off on him being transgender as well.

Pure example of reverse discrimination.

If he put on panties, a bra and red lipstick while paying his insurance bill would that be sufficiently playing the act of being the gender opposite his biological sex?

Or maybe have him take a driving test to see if drives like a woman? Put him in a big SUV and see if he cuts everyone off? "OK, you qualify as a female driver."

 

[roguenuke]

Pure example of reverse discrimination.

If he put on panties, a bra and red lipstick while paying his insurance bill would that be sufficiently playing the act of being the gender opposite his biological sex?

Or maybe have him take a driving test to see if drives like a woman? Put him in a big SUV and see if he cuts everyone off? "OK, you qualify as a female driver."

From what I read, the situation is very different than what was described on this thread. She is transgender. She only mentioned that she saved that much money by transitioning, but that was not the reason she transitioned. She actually is transgender.

I personally don't care what gender or sex anyone identifies as, but I do think it is wrong to identify as something you know you aren't for some sort of perk alone, especially if it is something like monetary gain. That is lying, and I don't approve of lying for pure personal monetary gain.

 

[Lethargic Aptitude]

The thing is that no matter how much one asserts that they know that transgender is not a choice (or a choice), they can cannot prove it with any objective evidence. And there lies the problem: there is nothing other than people sharing their opinions.

Gender identity is subjective at best. And there shouldn't be a need to justify the way that you feel about yourself. You feel that you were born a certain way then great enjoy your life that way. As long as we are talking about consenting adults then no harm done. Children on the other hand are not consenting adults and thus should not be told that on one hand they are too young for adult decisions, while being told to make an adult decision (about their gender or sexuality).

A somewhat recent trend is to tell parents that their children do not develop gender identity for a certain amount of time after birth. But then we are also being told that people are born transgender, which is it? It seems to me that adults decide their gender sometime near adulthood, then retroactively conclude they were always that way. They want to justify there gender identity and claim that they were always like that in an attempt to cull any objections of their choice. Interestingly the gays of my youth (back in the 70's and 80's) were adamant that their lifestyle was their choice and no one elses (including science or anyone). They were gay and proud of it and did not need to justify it with anyone for any reason. That somehow lost out to the need to justify it and to justify it take away the personal pride in their liberty to be who they want to be. It is therefor a social evolution, subjective and not based on science to assume that transgenderism is not a choice. If and when objective science can back one way or another I will just say its subjective and needs further research to conclude one way or another. Until then, when movements aim to take the place of science one should be aware that it isnt science and treat it thus.

 

[roguenuke]

The thing is that no matter how much one asserts that they know that transgender is not a choice (or a choice), they can cannot prove it with any objective evidence. And there lies the problem: there is nothing other than people sharing their opinions.

Gender identity is subjective at best. And there shouldn't be a need to justify the way that you feel about yourself. You feel that you were born a certain way then great enjoy your life that way. As long as we are talking about consenting adults then no harm done. Children on the other hand are not consenting adults and thus should not be told that on one hand they are too young for adult decisions, while being told to make an adult decision (about their gender or sexuality).

A somewhat recent trend is to tell parents that their children do not develop gender identity for a certain amount of time after birth. But then we are also being told that people are born transgender, which is it? It seems to me that adults decide their gender sometime near adulthood, then retroactively conclude they were always that way. They want to justify there gender identity and claim that they were always like that in an attempt to cull any objections of their choice. Interestingly the gays of my youth (back in the 70's and 80's) were adamant that their lifestyle was their choice and no one elses (including science or anyone). They were gay and proud of it and did not need to justify it with anyone for any reason. That somehow lost out to the need to justify it and to justify it take away the personal pride in their liberty to be who they want to be. It is therefor a social evolution, subjective and not based on science to assume that transgenderism is not a choice. If and when objective science can back one way or another I will just say its subjective and needs further research to conclude one way or another. Until then, when movements aim to take the place of science one should be aware that it isnt science and treat it thus.

Many transgender children report feeling better themselves when they start identifying as the opposite sex, without their parents interfering, having any say. I don't see any evidence that it is harmful to a child to let them determine that for themselves. It is better to allow children to make those decisions when they are ready. Most parents of transgender children raised them traditionally, with stereotypical boys or girls clothing, colors, toys up to the point that the child asked for the change, which usually starts with something small.

 

[CLAX1911]

Many feminists intensely dislike "transgenders" and in my opinion for good reasons. Transgender is NOT the same as transsexual.

Transgender is for some or most claiming to be and acting transgendered is nothing more than being a cross-dresser in public. It is 100% sexifying and stereotyping women as being nothing more than makeup, wardrobe and hair style. There is no "wear lipstick and a skirt" gene or otherwise being born desiring to shave your legs.

For whatever reason it is, transgender is wanting the stereotypical social definition of being a woman - no different than if a white person prefers the culture of a black community so dyes his skin dark demanding people call him an African-American. Yet that man isn't African-American, did not grow up as an African-American and most African-Americans definitely would NOT accept that he's really black.

Transsexual is not about social stereotyping, but instead to literally be a female. Nearly all transsexuals will also be transgender, while most transgender will not be and do not want to be true transsexual. A true transsexual will always want - desperately want - sex reassignment surgery (SRS). A transgender does not need SRS because this is not necessary to play the social stereotypical act of looking female in stereotypical ways.

Noting the distinction between transgender and transsexual, is a person born "transgender?" No. No one is born genetically pre-disposed to wear high heel shoes, a bra and a skirt. Those are all popular social gender stereotyping that constantly change. Transgenders are, by definition, "sexists."

I do believe it is accurate, but rare, that a small number of people may be born "transsexual," where their dna does not match their internal sense of what sex (biological sex) the person is.

I have no problem if a man wants to put makeup, a dress and the other social stereotypical appearances as a female - socially or privately - and an act they want to play socially or as a sexual fetish. Same visa versa for a woman wanting to play-act being a woman. However, it is extreme sexism and if that person then claims to REALLY be a woman it is EXTREMELY demeaning and degrading to women.

That is why, personally, I do not accept that a "he" has become a "she" without SRS as a matter of the person's sex. I person may play any social stereotypical social role they want to - including being a man socially pretending to be a woman - provided the government does not require everyone to accept that sexifying and stereotyping of what a female is as a matter of law.

If a person has SRS surgery, then and only then in my opinion has a "he" become a "she." This is not because I have anything against transgenders/cross-dressers. It is because I refuse to trivialize. marginalize and sexify what being a female is. I can fully accept and respect a transsexuals claim of being the opposite of their real sex if the person has SRS surgery.

Trans women want desperately to be seen as women and to be accepted as women but generally speaking lesbians aren't going to because they're not.

We see the same thing with straight men and trans women. Men do not see a trans woman is the same thing as a woman. Pre-op or post-op is not relevant in most cases. They simply are not and never will be women in regards to the straight men who don't want a relationship with a trans woman or lesbian women who don't want a relationship with a trans woman.

I've seen activists try and claim that this is violence and it's transphobia and so on so forth to try and shame people into having sexual relationships with people they do not want to have sexual relationships with.

This is going to backfire

 

[joko104]

Many transgender children report feeling better themselves when they start identifying as the opposite sex, without their parents interfering, having any say. I don't see any evidence that it is harmful to a child to let them determine that for themselves. It is better to allow children to make those decisions when they are ready. Most parents of transgender children raised them traditionally, with stereotypical boys or girls clothing, colors, toys up to the point that the child asked for the change, which usually starts with something small.

The problem with that is there can be almost an infinite number of reasons a child might want to be treated like the other gender. For example, a boy might want to be a girl because relatives treat little girls nicely and in a more guarded way, while the boys are allowed to rough house in a way that scared him. So then he want to be with the girls for the greater affection and sense of safety.

Those can be compelling reasons to be wanted to be treated like and sense as a girl - but all having nothing to do with gender identity otherwise. This is particularly since at a very young age the boy has NO sense of sexuality and it is ALL about social norms and how girls and boys are treated differently by most adults. If the boy is placated in this and fully treated and dressed like a girl - even put on hormone therapy etc and also so identified in his family and social circles - when puberty hits he could really be confused and messed up psychologically.

 

[CLAX1911]

Many transgender children report feeling better themselves when they start identifying as the opposite sex, without their parents interfering, having any say.

that is subjective.

I don't see any evidence that it is harmful to a child to let them determine that for themselves.

when they are adults yes when they are children no they are not capable of making those decisions.

It is better to allow children to make those decisions when they are ready.

I absolutely disagree you have to set boundaries for a child. They have to have a rule book in which to grow up with otherwise they grow up without understanding simple things.

Most parents of transgender children raised them traditionally, with stereotypical boys or girls clothing, colors, toys up to the point that the child asked for the change, which usually starts with something small.

I agree nurture is not everything but it does have profound effects on a child this is no mystery this is no phenomenon It is Well documented.

If a child decides they want to be the opposite sex they can do that when they are an adult.

 

[joko104]

Trans women want desperately to be seen as women and to be accepted as women but generally speaking lesbians aren't going to because they're not.

We see the same thing with straight men and trans women. Men do not see a trans woman is the same thing as a woman. Pre-op or post-op is not relevant in most cases. They simply are not and never will be women in regards to the straight men who don't want a relationship with a trans woman or lesbian women who don't want a relationship with a trans woman.

I've seen activists try and claim that this is violence and it's transphobia and so on so forth to try and shame people into having sexual relationships with people they do not want to have sexual relationships with.

This is going to backfire

Few people will ever buy the claim that anyone is a bigot because of who a person will or won't have a sexual relationship with.

I've often pointed out there is a major flaw in "LGTB" - because heterosexuals and homosexuals both equally "discrimination" (have no attraction to) half the population - which is diametrically opposite from bisexuals and has no relationship to trans issues, which are not about what sex (biological) a person is attracted to as trans can be straight, gay or bi.

Unfortunately, most people allow the MSM, press and interest groups to define issues for them - and then just blindly accept those and the issues and accept how people are stereotyped into various pigeon holes.

Generally, gay rights activist groups are EXTREMELY intolerant of even any of their own members or gays having any other views the that the activist group is claiming are the dare-not-question-or-your-a-homophobe-truisms of this month.

 

[Anarchon]

I think the more relevant question is if transgenderism is natural or environmental. Whatever arguments people believe they think they have for it being natural, I don't think the environmental aspects can be discounted, or even accurately accounted for.

 

[joko104]

It is a FAR superior claim of independence and self determination by a person that the person selected the relationship(s) they have in conscious thought and consideration in relation to the overall emotional, pragmatic and dogmatic reasons to have that relationship - rather than to sob they had a unfortunate birth condition - so therefore have no more control over their relationship and sex partner than a fruit fly.

 

[Lethargic Aptitude]

Many transgender children report feeling better themselves when they start identifying as the opposite sex, without their parents interfering, having any say. I don't see any evidence that it is harmful to a child to let them determine that for themselves. It is better to allow children to make those decisions when they are ready. Most parents of transgender children raised them traditionally, with stereotypical boys or girls clothing, colors, toys up to the point that the child asked for the change, which usually starts with something small.

How do you determine when they are ready? I know from raising my own kids that they come up with all kinds of ideas about themselves. I do not and did not encourage many of those ideas because they were and are still kids. Children's brains are not fully developed and they develop at different rates. perhaps it ends up that the kid was right, more than likely they will learn that they were wrong about many things they thought while growing up. So yes, in a certain percentage children who live as the opposite sex will be happy. What about the ones who ended up not being happy? Perhaps a childs reasoning for being the opposite sex isnt always the same. If the change happened before puberty I question the social influences more than an biological need. Up until puberty children are only living out the influences of the adults in their life. Stereotypical gender clothing and what not are and have been ignored by heterosexuals. Many girls enjoyed playing games and wearing pants, in the old days they were called tomboys. They were not transgendered they just found that typical gender rolls were restrictive or many other reasons. It would be harmful to teach girls that being a tomboy means that they are transgendered. Or that if a boy plays with dolls or liked pink that they are transgendered.

As a parent part of your job is to teach and guide your child. Letting your child make a decision long before they have the ability to make a decision that important seems wrong to me. Of course I am biased since I have a daughter who decided that she was a lesbian (which I didnt tell her that was wrong or a bad choice or much of anything other than its her choice) who is now happily engaged to her boyfriend. Sure its anecdotal to everyone but myself and my family, but still I cannot get past that bias. At least for some it is a choice. And it is wrong to say that it isnt a choice for everyone. Perhaps it isnt a choice for some but that doesnt really matter for adults.

 

[joko104]

If in a non-argumentative DISCUSSION with someone who was married to the opposite sex - then left and since is in a same-sex relationship - and does more than just chant "I was born gay only didn't realize it" - this is what I've heard.

First, if asked how was their relationship in the person's marriage different than the relationship now - other than sex - the person will give a long list of decisive behavioral and personality differences favoring the second relationship having NOTHING to do with the person's gender or biological sense.

Second, it is not uncommon for people who prefer and/or are in same sex relationships to tell of terrible abuse they had as a child, as an adult or both by someone of the opposite sex.

From the moment a person is born, that person is bombarded incessantly with observations, experiences and what that person is told, hears, is rewarded for, punished for, what is right and wrong, what the person should think, feel, do, say and not the opposite - with those millions and then billions of milli-seconds of ingraining so interwoven into the person's psychology it can not possible be untangled.

 

[joko104]

The original slogan of gay rights was noble, admirable, correct and of the highest level of individuality, free thinking and independence: "I fall in love with a person, not a set of genitals."

Rather than pursuing that course in demanding equal rights and treatment under the law, instead it was shifted to basically declaring being gay is some form of a birth defect for which they should be protected by law as if a mental disability with "I was born this way," essentially declaring ALL homosexuals have no more say over their sex life and relationship desires than a fruit fly or dog.

The same applies to anyone who declares they were born heterosexual. People are born with no sexual desires whatsoever the relationship they seek is with their mother, then others in their life who provide for the child and treat the child well. No male baby pushes his mother's breast away reaching for his father.

Why the time a child reaches the age of being able to talk and walk at all, their has been a billion hits against that baby's psychology, thought process and what is right and wrong, desirable and undesirable. Few aspects of a human' psychology are pre-determined.

I've seen infants carefully studying an adult trying to figure out if something that happened is good or bad - to know whether to smile or cry - many times.

As example, when in a very different, very highly impoverished foreign country, our soldiers have decided to try to establish a good relationship with the kids they'll give the kids chocolate candy bars - only to see the children bite into it and spit it out for how terrible it tastes to them. Why? They are completely unfamiliar with it.

Simply, what difference does it make WHY a person is in a same-sex relationship? It is the person's inherent individual absolute civil and human right. In my opinion, the debate ends there!

 

[joko104]

Yes of course...
can you be heterosexual with out ever touching a girl?

a transgender is transgender no matter stage of transition or lack of one

I question if you know the difference between transgender and transsexual. Transgender is only about social norms and current era gender stereotyping. "Gender" identity is 100% defined by the society and culture the person is in at the time.

Transsexual is about biological sex, sex organs and the person's physical sex - wanting their body to match the oppose sex. That is an identical constant in every society and culture across all of human history.

Again, few transgenders even by their own telling of themselves are NOT transsexual. Most - all actually - I've known are gay in that they have sex with someone of their identical biological sex. The only exception to that has been "cross dressers and some drag queens - a very different topic entirely. That nearly all transgender have same-sex relationships strongly suggests it is not a born trait, as most women by way prefer relationships and sex with men, while biological males who are transgender will have a relationship and sex with other men.

Nearly all transsexuals are also transgender - though in this in terms of sex may be gay, straight or bi - and the few I've known if biologically (dna) male both before and after the SRS surgery seek male lovers and relationship - nearly always opposite from transgender who do not want SRS surgery.

For tactical reasons, both gay rights activists and trans activist want people to think that the words "gender" and "sex" of a person means the same thing - and those 2 words do not mean the same thing at all.

 

[AGENT J]

1.)I question if you know the difference between transgender and transsexual. Transgender is only about social norms and current era gender stereotyping. "Gender" identity is 100% defined by the society and culture the person is in at the time.

Transsexual is about biological sex and sexuality. That is an identical constant in every society and culture across all of human history.

Again, few transgenders even by their own telling of themselves are transsexual - most - all actually - I've known are gay in that they have sex with someone of their identical biological sex. That strongly suggests it is not a born trait, as most women by way prefer relationships and sex with men, while biological males who are transgender will have a relationship and sex with other men.

Nearly all transsexuals are also transgender - though in this in terms of sex may be gay, straight or bi - and the few I've known if biologically (dna) male both before and after the SRS surgery seek male lovers and relationship - nearly always opposite from transgender who do not want SRS surgery.

For tactical reasons, both gay rights activists and trans activist want people to think that the words "gender" and "sex" of a person means the same thing - and those 2 words do not mean the same thing at all.

well that would be an INSANE question that has no logical or rational merit to ask of me lol
everything i said in my post is factual

if you disagree point out the false part and fctually prove it

 

[Anarchon]

Gays also say it isn't a choice...then they try to recruit others.

 

[Anarchon]

The original slogan of gay rights was noble, admirable, correct and of the highest level of individuality, free thinking and independence: "I fall in love with a person, not a set of genitals."

Rather than pursuing that course in demanding equal rights and treatment under the law, instead it was shifted to basically declaring being gay is some form of a birth defect for which they should be protected by law as if a mental disability with "I was born this way," essentially declaring ALL homosexuals have no more say over their sex life and relationship desires than a fruit fly or dog.

The same applies to anyone who declares they were born heterosexual. People are born with no sexual desires whatsoever the relationship they seek is with their mother, then others in their life who provide for the child and treat the child well. No male baby pushes his mother's breast away reaching for his father.

Why the time a child reaches the age of being able to talk and walk at all, their has been a billion hits against that baby's psychology, thought process and what is right and wrong, desirable and undesirable. Few aspects of a human' psychology are pre-determined.

I've seen infants carefully studying an adult trying to figure out if something that happened is good or bad - to know whether to smile or cry - many times.

As example, when in a very different, very highly impoverished foreign country, our soldiers have decided to try to establish a good relationship with the kids they'll give the kids chocolate candy bars - only to see the children bite into it and spit it out for how terrible it tastes to them. Why? They are completely unfamiliar with it.

Simply, what difference does it make WHY a person is in a same-sex relationship? It is the person's inherent individual absolute civil and human right. In my opinion, the debate ends there!

This is so well put, right up to the end until you had to throw rights into it. Rights don't exist. There is only freedom, and the one that would keep you from it. It's wrong to keep anyone from being free by use of force. Unfortunately, some special groups, including the ones in the subject of this thread, want to use force to keep people from being free to choose whom they associate with.

 

[enderpotato00]

Is OCD a choice? No. I never chose to have OCD, but I do. Its apart of me. For trans people, its not a choice.

 

[Thorgasm]

I, personally, feel the question regarding homosexuality is settled. It isn’t a choice any more than being hetero is. I’m not as sure with regard to being trans. From my extremely limited perspective, there seems to be a lot of choice involved but I don’t think people undertake changing their physical gender lightly. Can this even be answered by a simple yes or no?

It is difficult to answer. The reason is that the argument isn't settled (in society) as to whether their feelings are "healthy" or not. If you wanted to change your gender would you think something was wrong with you? I bet most people in that situation do. It's a pretty isolated situation to be in. Too often being "not normal" gets stigmatized as mental illness. Having not walked in those shoes I can't begin to be an authority on their feelings.

 

[Thorgasm]

Is OCD a choice? No. I never chose to have OCD, but I do. Its apart of me. For trans people, its not a choice.

It should be called CDO. That's the alphabetical order, as it should be.

 

[enderpotato00]

It should be called CDO. That's the alphabetical order, as it should be.

Shut up. OCD ain't funny. I literally suffer from it.

 

[Thorgasm]

Shut up. OCD ain't funny. I literally suffer from it.

*CDO

You are going to have to abandon the acronym. Type it out or you will go nuts.

#alpahbeticalorderasitshouldbe

 

[enderpotato00]

*CDO

You are going to have to abandon the acronym. Type it out or you will go nuts.

#alpahbeticalorderasitshouldbe

Thats not OCD. OCD isn't perfectionism. Its an anxiety disorder. Look it up.

 

[Thorgasm]

Thats not OCD. OCD isn't perfectionism. Its an anxiety disorder. Look it up.

True. Baseball players grabbing their nuts three times every at bat isn't perfect.

 

[enderpotato00]

True. Baseball players grabbing their nuts three times every at bat isn't perfect.

Please look up what OCD really is. Its not funny, or quirky. Its a destructive disorder.